Christians are supposed to be kosher?

Jose Fly

New member
In the long-running Creation vs. Evolution thread, Christian poster iouae explained that the OT covenant is still in effect and God expects everyone to still follow the OT laws, including the dietary laws. Not only that, but he also said any Christians who don't see it that way are "stupid".

Now, it's been awhile since I've been to any sort of Bible study, but I'm pretty sure I was taught that Jesus fulfilled the old covenant and ushered in a new one, thereby removing the obligation of Christians to abide by things lie the OT dietary laws.

Did I miss something? :confused:
 

George Affleck

TOL Subscriber
In the long-running Creation vs. Evolution thread, Christian poster iouae explained that the OT covenant is still in effect and God expects everyone to still follow the OT laws, including the dietary laws. Not only that, but he also said any Christians who don't see it that way are "stupid".

Now, it's been awhile since I've been to any sort of Bible study, but I'm pretty sure I was taught that Jesus fulfilled the old covenant and ushered in a new one, thereby removing the obligation of Christians to abide by things lie the OT dietary laws.

Did I miss something? :confused:

You're missing everything.
 

daqq

Well-known member
In the long-running Creation vs. Evolution thread, Christian poster iouae explained that the OT covenant is still in effect and God expects everyone to still follow the OT laws, including the dietary laws. Not only that, but he also said any Christians who don't see it that way are "stupid".

Now, it's been awhile since I've been to any sort of Bible study, but I'm pretty sure I was taught that Jesus fulfilled the old covenant and ushered in a new one, thereby removing the obligation of Christians to abide by things lie the OT dietary laws.

Did I miss something? :confused:

Here is just one simple example of the "new" understanding, (but not to suggest that the so-called "old" is fulfilled to the point of having been done away). The point is to understand the Torah rather than to abolish it from your heart and mind:

The unclean fowls of the air are primarily birds of prey and likened to the wicked one, (Matthew 13:19 KJV) the devil, (Luke 8:12 KJV) and the Satan, (Mark 4:15 KJV). The unclean fowls of the air are therefore not a commandment concerning what you should not consume with your mouth and put into your stomach but rather what you should not partake of because of the nature of the creature, (Torah is Spirit and supernal despite what most would have you believe). In other words do not partake of such natures; do not be like them, (perhaps like an ancient version of the saying, "You are what you eat"?). We already have a commandment in the Ten which clearly and emphatically states: "You shall not murder-kill", (period) without qualification as to whether this commandment pertains only to not murdering or killing other human beings. Most all animals and even the larger marine life are also living creatures because they are called living souls, (the same term used for the first man-adam in Gen 2:7, nephesh-chayah). It is merely an assumption that Exodus 20:13 speaks only concerning killing other human beings and that likely because what you have in modern times are essentially carnivores translating holy writ according to the mind of the belly.
 

iouae

Well-known member
In the long-running Creation vs. Evolution thread, Christian poster iouae explained that the OT covenant is still in effect and God expects everyone to still follow the OT laws, including the dietary laws. Not only that, but he also said any Christians who don't see it that way are "stupid".

Now, it's been awhile since I've been to any sort of Bible study, but I'm pretty sure I was taught that Jesus fulfilled the old covenant and ushered in a new one, thereby removing the obligation of Christians to abide by things lie the OT dietary laws.

Did I miss something? :confused:

Here is how the conversation actually went ...

JoseFly: "So the OT covenant is still in place?"

iouae: "Food laws, sex laws, and hundreds of other laws which sound like they have universal application, yes.

Rest of the Old Covenant has been updated to the New."

iouae: "Many Christians ignore as much as possible of the Book as they think they can. That just makes them "stupid" in my eyes." (#15342)
 

Elia

Well-known member
In the long-running Creation vs. Evolution thread, Christian poster iouae explained that the OT covenant is still in effect and God expects everyone to still follow the OT laws, including the dietary laws. Not only that, but he also said any Christians who don't see it that way are "stupid".

Now, it's been awhile since I've been to any sort of Bible study, but I'm pretty sure I was taught that Jesus fulfilled the old covenant and ushered in a new one, thereby removing the obligation of Christians to abide by things lie the OT dietary laws.

Did I miss something? :confused:

Bs"d

You missed this statement of your saviour:

“Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."
Matt 5

What you also have to keep in mind, is that "fulfilling" in no way means "abolishing", "setting aside", "putting out of order", or anything like that.

The laws of God are forever:
“So you shall observe the Feast of Unleavened Bread, for on this same day I will have brought your armies out of the land of Egypt. Therefore you shall observe this day throughout your generations as an everlasting ordinance."
Ex 12:17

"In the tabernacle of meeting, outside the veil which is before the Testimony, Aaron and his sons shall tend it from evening until morning before the Lord. It shall be a statute forever to their generations on behalf of the children of Israel."
Ex 27:21]

"This shall be a perpetual statute throughout your generations in all your dwellings: you shall eat neither fat nor blood.’”
Leviticus 3:17

"You shall eat neither bread nor parched grain nor fresh grain until the same day that you have brought an offering to your God; it shall be a statute forever throughout your generations in all your dwellings."
Leviticus 23:14

“‘Now if you as a community unintentionally fail to keep any of these commands the Lord gave Moses— 23 any of the Lord’s commands to you through him, from the day the Lord gave them and continuing through the generations to come" Numbers 15:23

There is much, much more like this, saying the law stands forever, for all generations.

There is no such a thing as: "The messiah will come and abolish the law". It just doesn't exist.

It is only Paul who comes up with the idea that the law is abolished, but who is Paul that he thinks he can abolish the law??



"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".

Micah 4:5
 

genuineoriginal

New member
In the long-running Creation vs. Evolution thread, Christian poster iouae explained that the OT covenant is still in effect and God expects everyone to still follow the OT laws, including the dietary laws. Not only that, but he also said any Christians who don't see it that way are "stupid".

Now, it's been awhile since I've been to any sort of Bible study, but I'm pretty sure I was taught that Jesus fulfilled the old covenant and ushered in a new one, thereby removing the obligation of Christians to abide by things lie the OT dietary laws.

Did I miss something? :confused:
Yes, you missed something.


Romans 3:31
31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.​


Hebrews 10:16
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;​


The laws of God have not been abolished.
Christians have been freed from the curse of the Law, not from the commandments of the Law.
 

genuineoriginal

New member
So what's the verdict? Are Christians supposed to be kosher and obey the OT dietary laws or not?

Christians are not compelled to follow the commandments upon threat of expulsion from the Promised Land of Israel.

The Kosher laws were given for health reasons, so ignoring those commandments means putting yourself at risk for diseases that you could avoid by following the Kosher commandments, regardless of whether you are a Jew or a Gentile.

In the Kingdom of the world to come, Christians will be living according to the commandments found in the Torah, so there is no real reason not to follow them in this world, too.
 

Jose Fly

New member
Christians have been freed from the curse of the Law, not from the commandments of the Law.

So Christians are supposed to be kosher and (men) be circumcised. Huh. :think:
 

genuineoriginal

New member
So Christians are supposed to be kosher and (men) be circumcised. Huh. :think:
The Council at Jerusalem addressed whether Christians were required to be circumcised in order to be saved.


Acts 15:1
1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.​


The ruling of the Council of Jerusalem was that Gentiles were required to do only a minimum set of commandments instead of being required to become circumcised and obey all the commandments.


Acts 15:19-21
19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.​

The law of physical circumcision in order to become one of the children of Israel is not a binding commandment on Gentile Christians.

However, there is a law of circumcision found in the Torah that still must be obeyed by Gentiles:

Deuteronomy 10:16
16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.​

 

iouae

Well-known member
But even circumcision, though not commanded for Christians, has great health benefits, including giving a lot of immunity against HIV/AIDS.
 

genuineoriginal

New member
Kosher only means cool to me. That's kosher
That is a modern slang definition for Kosher.
The origin of the word comes from the dietary laws found in the Torah.

_____
Kashrut (also kashruth or kashrus, כַּשְׁרוּת) is the set of Jewish religious dietary laws. Food that may be consumed according to halakha (Jewish law) is termed kosher /ˈkoʊʃɜr/ in English, from the Ashkenazi pronunciation of the Hebrew term kashér (כָּשֵׁר), meaning "fit" (in this context, fit for consumption).
_____​
 

SonOfCaleb

Active member
So Christians are supposed to be kosher and (men) be circumcised. Huh. :think:

Paul explained that circumcision is no longer required in Romans 2:25-29 and Romans 3:1-3

"25 Circumcision is, in fact, of benefit only if you practice law; but if you are a transgressor of law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 If, therefore, an uncircumcised person keeps the righteous requirements of the Law, his uncircumcision will be counted as circumcision, will it not? 27 And the uncircumcised [person] that is such by nature will, by carrying out the Law, judge you who with its written code and circumcision are a transgressor of law. 28 For he is not a Jew who is one on the outside, nor is circumcision that which is on the outside upon the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and [his] circumcision is that of the heart by spirit, and not by a written code. The praise of that one comes, not from men, but from God.
3 What, then, is the superiority of the Jew, or what is the benefit of the circumcision? 2 A great deal in every way. First of all, because they were entrusted with the sacred pronouncements of God. 3 What, then, [is the case]? If some did not express faith, will their lack of faith perhaps make the faithfulness of God without effect?

Paul went on to confirm the irrelevance of physical circumcision in 1 Cor 7:19 "Circumcision does not mean a thing, and uncircumcision means not a thing, but observance of God’s commandments does".

In other words the outward symbolism of circumcision wasn't enough as proof of faith or love of God. Circumcision of the heart is what mattered most. As Jesus said the two greatest commandments in Matthew 22:37 were "You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind.’ 38 This is the greatest and first commandment. 39 The second, like it, is this: ‘You must love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments the whole Law hangs, and the Prophets". Thus Jesus instructed that love was the criteria that ALL men would be judged by. Moses also expounded on this in the OT in Deuteronomy 10:16 "And YOU must circumcise the foreskin of YOUR hearts and not harden YOUR necks any longer"


Likewise the Law covenant handed down via Moses was terminated at Pentecost 33CE as Paul explained in 1 Cor 9:21 Christians are bound to a new covenant which is the "Law toward Christ". This law was based on faith alone and didn't require the stringent stipulations of the Mosaic Law nor the cumbersome oral law that the Pharisees added.

As far back as the prophet Jeremiahs time it was known a new covenant would be created, as Jeremiah spoke of this 'New Law' that would be written on the hearts proverbially speaking of Gods people.

Jeremiah 31:31-34 "31 “Look! The days are coming,” declares Jehovah, “when I will make with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah a new covenant. 32 It will not be like the covenant that I made with their forefathers on the day I took hold of their hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, ‘my covenant that they broke, although I was their true master,’ declares Jehovah.”
33 “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares Jehovah. “I will put my law within them, and in their heart I will write it. And I will become their God, and they will become my people.”
34 “And they will no longer teach each one his neighbor and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know Jehovah!’ for they will all know me, from the least to the greatest of them,” declares Jehovah. “For I will forgive their error, and I will no longer remember their sin."
 

iouae

Well-known member

http://www.who.int/hiv/topics/malecircumcision/en/

From the WHO

"Male circumcision main page
There is compelling evidence that male circumcision reduces the risk of heterosexually acquired HIV infection in men by approximately 60%. Three randomized controlled trials have shown that male circumcision provided by well trained health professionals in properly equipped settings is safe. WHO/UNAIDS recommendations emphasize that male circumcision should be considered an efficacious intervention for HIV prevention in countries and regions with heterosexual epidemics, high HIV and low male circumcision prevalence.

Male circumcision provides only partial protection, and therefore should be only one element of a comprehensive HIV prevention package which includes: the provision of HIV testing and counseling services; treatment for sexually transmitted infections; the promotion of safer sex practices; the provision of male and female condoms and promotion of their correct and consistent use."
 

Jose Fly

New member
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...cision-myths-you-may-believe-hygiene-and-stds


Myth: Circumcision prevents HIV/AIDS.

Reality check: Three studies in Africa several years ago that claimed that circumcision prevented AIDS and that circumcision was as effective as a 60% effective vaccine (Auvert 2005, 2006). These studies had many flaws, including that they were stopped before all the results came in. There have also been several studies that show that circumcision does not prevent HIV (Connolly 2008). There are many issues at play in the spread of STDs which make it very hard to generalize results from one population to another.

In Africa, where the recent studies have been done, most HIV transmission is through male-female sex, but in the USA, it is mainly transmitted through blood exposure (like needle sharing) and male-male sex. Male circumcision does not protect women from acquiring HIV, nor does it protect men who have sex with men (Wawer 2009, Jameson 2009).

What's worse, because of the publicity surrounding the African studies, men in Africa are now starting to believe that if they are circumcised, they do not need to wear condoms, which will increase the spread of HIV (Westercamp 2010). Even in the study with the most favorable effects of circumcision, the protective effect was only 60% - men would still have to wear condoms to protect themselves and their partners from HIV.

It looks like there is a bit of disagreement in the medical community about these studies, so we'll just have to see. Regardless, the question of whether Christians are bound by the OT laws still seems unanswered. That seems strange to me, since you'd think such a fundamentally important question would have a clear answer.
 

Jose Fly

New member
Paul explained that circumcision is no longer required in Romans 2:25-29 and Romans 3:1-3...

...Likewise the Law covenant handed down via Moses was terminated at Pentecost 33CE as Paul explained in 1 Cor 9:21 Christians are bound to a new covenant which is the "Law toward Christ". This law was based on faith alone and didn't require the stringent stipulations of the Mosaic Law nor the cumbersome oral law that the Pharisees added.

So your answer is, "No, Christians are not bound by the OT laws"?
 

Lon

Well-known member
I was taught that Jesus fulfilled the old covenant and ushered in a new one, thereby removing the obligation of Christians to abide by things lie the OT dietary laws.
You missed this statement of your savior
:think: Did you become a Christian over Christmas, Jose???

You kind of set yourself up for it with this OP :think:
Did I miss something? :confused:
Probably Jesus, but we'll see...
(most of us ignore you any more because of your 'fun ridicule' agenda, but hey, if you had a conversion...I didn't take it that way, but certainly you left that door wide open, confused a Jew or cultist or two...I'd be happy of course if you were trying to say something about appreciating AWANA for your kids or something...)
 

genuineoriginal

New member
So your answer is, "No, Christians are not bound by the OT laws"?

{Hee, hee, hee. When I can get someone to answer yes, then I can ask about the law against homosexual activity in the OT.}

Christians are bound by the Law of God for righteousness, which includes the commandments found in the Old Testament.
 
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