Christianity Is A Faith.

[JAGG]

Christianity Is A Faith And Not An Intellectual Philosophical System
Based Upon Rationalism And Empiricism.

Start quote.
"Henry Dodwell argues that matters of religious faith lie outside the
determination of reason. God could not possibly have intended that
reason should be the faculty to lead us to faith, for faith cannot
hang indefinitely is suspense while reason cautiously weighs and
reweighs arguments.

`The Scriptures teach, on the contrary, that the way to God is by
means of the heart, not by means of the intellect . . .(What is the
basis of faith? Dodwell answers that it is) the faith-producing work
of the Holy Spirit . . .

Now Alvin Plantinga . . .

Alvin Plantinga has launched a sustained attack on theological
rationalism. Plantinga maintains that belief in God and in the
central doctrines of Christianity is both rational and warranted
wholly apart from any evidential foundations for belief . . .

Then William Lane Craig says . . .

I think that Dodwell and Plantinga are correct that, fundamentally,
the way we know Christianity to be true is by the self-authenticating
witness of God's Holy Spirit."
End quote

Source:
Reasonable Faith
by William Lane Craig
pages 35, 39, 43

Alvin Plantinga and William Lane Craig are considered to be
Christendom's top Christian apologists.

____________


JAGG Writes:
Christianity is a FAITH.

The word FAITH occurs hundreds and hundreds of times in the Bible
and is presented as being absolutely essential to sustaining
the Christian FAITH.

So?

So demonstrate with empiricism and logic that Christianity is true
at the certainty-level of 2 + 2 = 4 and you then no longer have to
exercise FAITH in God.

It does NOT require any FAITH to believe that 2 + 2 = 4.

These 5 Bible verses below would no longer be needed and
would no longer be true.

■ "without faith it is impossible to please God"

■ "for by grace are you saved through faith"

■ "he that comes to God must believe that He
exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him"

■ "believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved"

■ God gave His only Son that whoever believes on Him shall
not perish but have eternal life

■ And the HUNDREDS of other Bible verses that demand faith
would no longer be needed or be true.

Demonstrate with empiricism that Christianity is true at the
certainty-level of 2 + 2 = 4 and then you would have this:

He that comes to God need NOT exercise faith because we
now know, based upon empirical evidence that rises to the
certainty-level of 2 + 2 = 4, that God exists. It is just as
certain as is the fact that New York City exists.

No faith is needed to believe that New York City exists.

So?

So . . .

Eliminate FAITH from Christianity and Christianity has just been
destroyed and wrecked.

■ "for by grace are you saved through faith" Ephesians 2:8

■ "without faith it is impossible to please God" Hebrews 11:6

■ "God gave His only Son that whoever believes on Him shall
not perish but have eternal life" John 3:16 --- Its impossible
to eliminate the need for Christendom's core Bible verse
John 3:16 without wrecking and destroying Christendom.


____________



Here are a couple of quotes that readers may find interesting:

(1) " . . . the role of rational argumentation in knowing Christianity to
be true is the role of a servant. A person knows Christianity is true
because the Holy Spirit tells him it is true, and while arguments and
evidence can be used to support this conclusion, they cannot
legitimately overrule it . . ." __William Lane Craig, Reasonable
Faith, page 51

(2) ". . .I'd say that with most people there's no need to use
apologetics at all . . . " __William Lane Craig, Reasonable Faith,
page 57


_______________



Note: My Opening Post does NOT say that Christian Apologetics is not
useful and needed. Christian Apologetics IS useful and IS needed ---
but Christian Apologetics can NOT eliminate from Christianity the
necessity to exercise faith in God

However the opening Post does NOT advocate for Fideism.
The Opening Post makes one {1} main point --- that faith
cannot be eliminated from Christianity without destroying
Christianity.

"Strict Fideists assign no place to reason in discovering or
understanding fundamental tenets of religion. For them
blind faith is supreme as the way to certitude and
salvation."__off the web

Again . . .
I do not argue for Fideism. There are some evidences to support
the existence of God and the truth of Christianity, but these evidences
must be evaluated on the basis of Probability and Plausibility which
are subjective and are saturated with our human biases, prejudices,
and presuppositions. Nonetheless these kinds of arguments are valuable
to many people.



________


I post all the above as "food for thought" --- each reader can
draw his own conclusions regarding how much importance
he puts upon rational argumentation to support Christianity.

For those inclined to rational argumentation:
Here are Peter Kreeft's 20 Arguments for The Existence Of God.
http://www.peterkreeft.com/topics-mo...-existence.htm




`

 

[KerimF]

Christianity Is A Faith And Not An Intellectual Philosophical System
Based Upon Rationalism And Empiricism.

I personally knew that Jesus is my Creator (as the Father in Heaven is) based on reason, not faith.
To my big surprise, I found out that Jesus 'only' agrees with me on 'all' what I have discovered, since I was teen (55 years ago), in my being and the world as it is in reality.
And His hints and parables also helped me get the logical answers of all important questions, I had, about Life Reality.
In brief, Jesus saved me from my ignorance; a weakness that every human baby has to be born with.

But I also understand that the great majority of Christians in the world believes in Jesus Christ; a belief based on faith, not reason.
Therefore, most Christians feel very well while glorify Him, much like Pagans do towards their idols.

 

[7djengo7]

No faith is needed to believe that New York City exists.

Is belief needed to believe that New York City exists?
Is faith needed to have faith that New York City exists?

If you think that faith is not belief, and that belief is not faith, please try to tell us what you imagine to be the difference between what you call "faith" and what you call "belief".

 

[JAGG]

Is belief needed to believe that New York City exists?
Is faith needed to have faith that New York City exists?

If you think that faith is not belief, and that belief is not faith,
please try to tell us what you imagine to be the difference
between what you call "faith" and what you call "belief".

Faith and Believe are the same thing, there is no difference
in Faith and Believe.

In the Opening Post JAGG Wrote:
Eliminate FAITH from Christianity and Christianity has just been
destroyed and wrecked.

■ "for by grace are you saved through faith" Ephesians 2:8

■ "without faith it is impossible to please God" Hebrews 11:6

■ "God gave His only Son that whoever believes on Him shall
not perish but have eternal life" John 3:16 --- Its impossible
to eliminate the need for Christendom's core Bible verse
John 3:16 without wrecking and destroying Christendom.
End Quote.
_____________

The Opening Post does not even so much as slightly suggest
that there is a difference in Faith and Believe. There is no
difference in Faith and Believe.
Ephesians 2:8's "faith"
John 3:16's "believe"
{both the same}

 

[Hawkins]

Faith can be logically reasoned. We usually failed to do so because Satan has an upper hand in blinding us from the correct line of reasoning. So faith to humans sometimes needs to be against all odds. You will however discover the reasons when standing closer and closer to God that Satan will give up his influence on you in the end.

 

[JAGG]

Faith can be logically reasoned.

Agreed.
My Opening Post makes plenty of room for that.

In the Opening Post JAGG Wrote:
Note: My Opening Post does NOT say that Christian Apologetics is not
useful and needed. Christian Apologetics IS useful and IS needed ---
but Christian Apologetics can NOT eliminate from Christianity the
necessity to exercise faith in God

However the opening Post does NOT advocate for Fideism.
The Opening Post makes one {1} main point --- that faith
cannot be eliminated from Christianity without destroying
Christianity.

"Strict Fideists assign no place to reason in discovering or
understanding fundamental tenets of religion. For them
blind faith is supreme as the way to certitude and
salvation."__off the web
End quote.

 

[KerimF]

Faith and Believe are the same thing, there is no difference
in Faith and Believe.

In the Opening Post JAGG Wrote:
Eliminate FAITH from Christianity and Christianity has just been
destroyed and wrecked.

But, are you sure that the teachings of the known formal Churches/Denominations (anywhere in the world) reflect really the teachings of Jesus?

And because they don't in reality, you are totally right in saying this.

But the logical (scientific) clear knowledge of 'Life Reality' which I personally got from Jesus (Jesus only, not from the entire Bible) can never be destroyed; unless there is also a way to destroy the world's scientific knowledge, I also got, in some other fields.

So, if someone couldn't learn from Jesus anything which could be real useful to him in his daily life, he simply liked to be Christian in order to deserve joining a certain organised group (created in the name of Jesus) with the hope that worshiping and glorifying Jesus will save him in the afterlife.

 

[JAGG]

But, are you sure that the teachings of the known formal Churches/Denominations
(anywhere in the world) reflect really the teachings of Jesus?

And because they don't in reality, you are totally right in saying this.

But the logical (scientific) clear knowledge of 'Life Reality' which I personally got
from Jesus (Jesus only, not from the entire Bible) can never be destroyed; unless
there is also a way to destroy the world's scientific knowledge, I also got, in some
other fields.

So, if someone couldn't learn from Jesus anything which could be real useful to
him in his daily life, he simply liked to be Christian in order to deserve joining a
certain organised group (created in the name of Jesus) with the hope that
worshiping and glorifying Jesus will save him in the afterlife.

I cannot see anything in your comments that relates to the subject of my Opening Post.
However thank you for reading my Opening Post and thank you for your comments.

 

[KerimF]

I cannot see anything in your comments that relates to the subject of my Opening Post.
However thank you for reading my Opening Post and thank you for your comments.

I meant that today's Christianity is 'supposed to be' a faith as it is the case of Pagan beliefs, Islam and Judaism.
On the other hand, not in vain, Jesus says: "I am the Light of the world". But, what could be this light if it is not the Light of Knowledge about 'Life Reality' (about how the world/life is created/designed)?

Having faith is a prerequisite to start learning from a chosen source. Then, when one acquires all the knowledge he was looking for from this source, his faith becomes redundant.

So, as long most Christians, unlike I, around the world are supposed to believe that many of Jesus sayings, hints, parables and sayings are beyond their human imagination/intelligence, they have no choice but to keep having faith in Jesus This is why if faith is eliminated from 'their' Christianity, 'their' Christianity would be destroyed completely.

 

[JAGG]

I meant that today's Christianity is 'supposed to be' a faith as it is the case
of Pagan beliefs, Islam and Judaism.
On the other hand, not in vain, Jesus says: "I am the Light of the world". But,
what could be this light if it is not the Light of Knowledge about 'Life Reality'
(about how the world/life is created/designed)?

Having faith is a prerequisite to start learning from a chosen source. Then
, when one acquires all the knowledge he was looking for from this source,
his faith becomes redundant.

So, as long most Christians, unlike I, around the world are supposed to
believe that many of Jesus sayings, hints, parables and sayings are beyond
their human imagination/intelligence, they have no choice but to keep having
faith in Jesus This is why if faith is eliminated from 'their' Christianity, 'their'
Christianity would be destroyed completely.

KerimF,

Thanks for the explanation.

"This is why if faith is eliminated from 'their' Christianity, 'their'
Christianity would be destroyed completely."___KerimF

Agreed.
Sounds good to me.

 

[God's Truth]

Christianity Is A Faith And Not An Intellectual Philosophical System
Based Upon Rationalism And Empiricism.

Start quote.
"Henry Dodwell argues that matters of religious faith lie outside the
determination of reason. God could not possibly have intended that
reason should be the faculty to lead us to faith, for faith cannot
hang indefinitely is suspense while reason cautiously weighs and
reweighs arguments.

`The Scriptures teach, on the contrary, that the way to God is by
means of the heart, not by means of the intellect . . .(What is the
basis of faith? Dodwell answers that it is) the faith-producing work
of the Holy Spirit . . .

Now Alvin Plantinga . . .

Alvin Plantinga has launched a sustained attack on theological
rationalism. Plantinga maintains that belief in God and in the
central doctrines of Christianity is both rational and warranted
wholly apart from any evidential foundations for belief . . .

Then William Lane Craig says . . .

I think that Dodwell and Plantinga are correct that, fundamentally,
the way we know Christianity to be true is by the self-authenticating
witness of God's Holy Spirit."
End quote

Source:
Reasonable Faith
by William Lane Craig
pages 35, 39, 43

Alvin Plantinga and William Lane Craig are considered to be
Christendom's top Christian apologists.

____________


JAGG Writes:
Christianity is a FAITH.

The word FAITH occurs hundreds and hundreds of times in the Bible
and is presented as being absolutely essential to sustaining
the Christian FAITH.

So?

So demonstrate with empiricism and logic that Christianity is true
at the certainty-level of 2 + 2 = 4 and you then no longer have to
exercise FAITH in God.

It does NOT require any FAITH to believe that 2 + 2 = 4.

These 5 Bible verses below would no longer be needed and
would no longer be true.

■ "without faith it is impossible to please God"

■ "for by grace are you saved through faith"

■ "he that comes to God must believe that He
exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him"

■ "believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved"

■ God gave His only Son that whoever believes on Him shall
not perish but have eternal life

■ And the HUNDREDS of other Bible verses that demand faith
would no longer be needed or be true.

Demonstrate with empiricism that Christianity is true at the
certainty-level of 2 + 2 = 4 and then you would have this:

He that comes to God need NOT exercise faith because we
now know, based upon empirical evidence that rises to the
certainty-level of 2 + 2 = 4, that God exists. It is just as
certain as is the fact that New York City exists.

No faith is needed to believe that New York City exists.

So?

So . . .

Eliminate FAITH from Christianity and Christianity has just been
destroyed and wrecked.

■ "for by grace are you saved through faith" Ephesians 2:8

■ "without faith it is impossible to please God" Hebrews 11:6

■ "God gave His only Son that whoever believes on Him shall
not perish but have eternal life" John 3:16 --- Its impossible
to eliminate the need for Christendom's core Bible verse
John 3:16 without wrecking and destroying Christendom.


____________



Here are a couple of quotes that readers may find interesting:

(1) " . . . the role of rational argumentation in knowing Christianity to
be true is the role of a servant. A person knows Christianity is true
because the Holy Spirit tells him it is true, and while arguments and
evidence can be used to support this conclusion, they cannot
legitimately overrule it . . ." __William Lane Craig, Reasonable
Faith, page 51

(2) ". . .I'd say that with most people there's no need to use
apologetics at all . . . " __William Lane Craig, Reasonable Faith,
page 57


_______________



Note: My Opening Post does NOT say that Christian Apologetics is not
useful and needed. Christian Apologetics IS useful and IS needed ---
but Christian Apologetics can NOT eliminate from Christianity the
necessity to exercise faith in God

However the opening Post does NOT advocate for Fideism.
The Opening Post makes one {1} main point --- that faith
cannot be eliminated from Christianity without destroying
Christianity.

"Strict Fideists assign no place to reason in discovering or
understanding fundamental tenets of religion. For them
blind faith is supreme as the way to certitude and
salvation."__off the web

Again . . .
I do not argue for Fideism. There are some evidences to support
the existence of God and the truth of Christianity, but these evidences
must be evaluated on the basis of Probability and Plausibility which
are subjective and are saturated with our human biases, prejudices,
and presuppositions. Nonetheless these kinds of arguments are valuable
to many people.



________


I post all the above as "food for thought" --- each reader can
draw his own conclusions regarding how much importance
he puts upon rational argumentation to support Christianity.

For those inclined to rational argumentation:
Here are Peter Kreeft's 20 Arguments for The Existence Of God.
http://www.peterkreeft.com/topics-mo...-existence.htm




`

You go by what too many men say.

What does the Bible say?

The Bible says we have to have faith.


Where does our faith come from? Our faith comes from HEARING the word, see Romans 10:17. From hearing the word and being TAUGHT, Colossians 1:5, 7. From continuing in what we have been CONVINCED of, see 2 Timothy 3:14, and being PERSUADED, 2 Corinthians 5:11.

 

[JAGG]

You go by what too many men say.

I do not.

What does the Bible say?

In the Opening Post JAGG Wrote:
■ "without faith it is impossible to please God"

■ "for by grace are you saved through faith"

■ "he that comes to God must believe that He
exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him"

■ "believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved"

■ God gave His only Son that whoever believes on Him shall
not perish but have eternal life

The Bible says we have to have faith.

THAT is THE proposition of my Opening Post.
What do you think this means?
In the Opening Post JAGG Wrote:

"Christianity is a FAITH.
The word FAITH occurs hundreds and hundreds of times in the Bible
and is presented as being absolutely essential to sustaining
the Christian FAITH.
Eliminate FAITH from Christianity and Christianity has just been
destroyed and wrecked.

■ "for by grace are you saved through faith" Ephesians 2:8

■ "without faith it is impossible to please God" Hebrews 11:6

■ "God gave His only Son that whoever believes on Him shall
not perish but have eternal life" John 3:16 --- Its impossible
to eliminate the need for Christendom's core Bible verse
John 3:16 without wrecking and destroying Christendom.:___JAGG


`

 

[God's Truth]

I do not.

There are at least five that you brought up in that one post.

THAT is THE proposition of my Opening Post.
What do you think this means?
In the Opening Post JAGG Wrote:

You don't write too clearly.

For instance you say,"He that comes to God need NOT exercise faith because we
now know, based upon empirical evidence that rises to the
certainty-level of 2 + 2 = 4, that God exists. It is just as
certain as is the fact that New York City exists."

So are you preaching to have faith or not to have faith or that it doesn't matter?

You also said this:
■ And the HUNDREDS of other Bible verses that demand faith
would no longer be needed or be true.

And this:
So demonstrate with empiricism and logic that Christianity is true
at the certainty-level of 2 + 2 = 4 and you then no longer have to
exercise FAITH in God.
It does NOT require any FAITH to believe that 2 + 2 = 4.

...and more.

You say too many conflicting things and it is just not clear what you are talking about and what you believe.

 

[JAGG]

There are at least five that you brought up in that one post.

If there had been 10 that would have been a very good thing.
Christendom has hundreds of thousands of Bible commentaries
that are used daily by millions of Christians. Also there is
Bible Gateway and Bible Hub that has a huge number of Bible
Commentaries and tens of millions of Christians read those
Bible commentaries daily. The writings of Bible believing
Christian teachers and Bible believing Christian pastors is a
very good thing -- Christendom needs all of this. Its a very
helpful thing. Then there are hundreds of Christian Bible Colleges
and Christian Universities where the writings of Christian
teachers make a huge contribution to Christendom.

You don't write too clearly.

I disagree.
My view is that I write very clearly.

So are you preaching to have faith or not to
have faith or that it doesn't matter?

To HAVE Faith.

JAGG Wrote:
Eliminate FAITH from Christianity and Christianity has just been
destroyed and wrecked.

■ "for by grace are you saved through faith" Ephesians 2:8

■ "without faith it is impossible to please God" Hebrews 11:6

■ "God gave His only Son that whoever believes on Him shall
not perish but have eternal life" John 3:16 --- Its impossible
to eliminate the need for Christendom's core Bible verse
John 3:16 without wrecking and destroying Christendom.

That is very clear.

You say too many conflicting things and it is just not clear
what you are talking about and what you believe.

The title of the thread and the opening paragraph tells you
exactly what I am saying and what I believe.

Here it is:

JAGG Wrote:
Christianity Is A Faith.
Christianity Is A Faith And Not An Intellectual Philosophical System
Based Upon Rationalism And Empiricism.
End quote.

What is difficult to understand about that?

_____________



Thanks for your comments and for your interest in my Opening Post.

I will be glad to answer any questions you have about the Opening
Post and about what I believe. I am a Bible believing Baptist.

From the Opening Post JAGG Wrote::
"Christianity is a FAITH.
The word FAITH occurs hundreds and hundreds of times in the Bible
and is presented as being absolutely essential to sustaining
the Christian FAITH".___JAGG
End quote.

The above is very clear.

Also:

The following from the Opening Post is my theme song, so to speak.
■ "without faith it is impossible to please God" Hebrews 11:6
■ "for by grace are you saved through faith" Ephesians 2:8


`

 

[God's Truth]

If there had been 10 that would have been a very good thing.
Christendom has hundreds of thousands of Bible commentaries
that are used daily by millions of Christians. Also there is
Bible Gateway and Bible Hub that has a huge number of Bible
Commentaries and tens of millions of Christians read those
Bible commentaries daily. The writings of Bible believing
Christian teachers and Bible believing Christian pastors is a
very good thing -- Christendom needs all of this. Its a very
helpful thing. Then there are hundreds of Christian Bible Colleges
and Christian Universities where the writings of Christian
teachers make a huge contribution to Christendom.

We get understanding from Jesus who gives it to those who obey him.

It is good to talk about Jesus and the Bible but so many preach falseness.

I am just pointing that out because it seemed if you were confused.

I disagree.
My view is that I write very clearly.

So you say we need faith or are you saying we don't need faith , because from what you wrote it seemed as if you are still confused about it.

It just wasn't clear to me.

 

[JAGG]

`
So you say we need faith or are you saying we
don't need faith , because from what you wrote it
seemed as if you are still confused about it.
`

I am saying we DO need faith. And have said that
SEVERAL times

And no not confused not even slightly confused:

The title of the thread and the opening paragraph tells you
exactly what I am saying and what I believe.

Here it is again:

JAGG Wrote:
Christianity Is A Faith.
Christianity Is A Faith And Not An Intellectual Philosophical System
Based Upon Rationalism And Empiricism.
End quote.

What is difficult to understand about that?


From the Opening Post JAGG Wrote::
"Christianity is a FAITH.
The word FAITH occurs hundreds and hundreds of times in the Bible
and is presented as being absolutely essential to sustaining
the Christian FAITH".___JAGG
End quote.

The above is very clear.

Also:

The following from the Opening Post is my theme song, so to speak.
■ "without faith it is impossible to please God" Hebrews 11:6
■ "for by grace are you saved through faith" Ephesians 2:8


`

 

[7djengo7]

Faith and Believe are the same thing, there is no difference in Faith and Believe.

If, by this, you mean that faith and belief are the same thing, and that there is no difference between faith and belief, you're correct, and I agree with you.

​

The Opening Post does not even so much as slightly suggest that there is a difference in Faith and Believe.

If, by this, you mean that the opening post does not even so much as slightly suggest that there is a difference between faith and belief, then you're mistaken, and I oppose you. For, in the opening post, you wrote:

​

No faith is needed to believe that New York City exists.​

To state, as you have here stated, that no faith is needed to believe that NYC exists is, indeed, necessarily to ever so loudly imply that there is a difference between faith and belief. And, to the contrary of what you have here stated, since faith is belief/belief is faith, faith is needed to believe that NYC exists. If one does not have faith that NYC exists, then he does not have belief that NYC exists--he does not believe that NYC exists.​

 

[Bradley D]

The Apostle Paul wrote:

"And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three..." (1 Cor. 13:13).

Hebrews describes Faith as:

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen" (Hebrews 11:1).

That is how strong my faith is to be in Christ and the Father.

 

[God's Truth]

I am saying we DO need faith. And have said that
SEVERAL times

And no not confused not even slightly confused:

The title of the thread and the opening paragraph tells you
exactly what I am saying and what I believe.

Here it is again:

JAGG Wrote:
Christianity Is A Faith.
Christianity Is A Faith And Not An Intellectual Philosophical System
Based Upon Rationalism And Empiricism.
End quote.

I had an English teacher once tell me that if you speak in words not understood by your audience than what good is it?

Just explain what you want to say instead of words that I have to go look up.

You say "Intellectual Philosophical System", and "Rationalism and Empiricism". What do you mean by that?

What is difficult to understand about that?

You don't speak clearly and explain your beliefs. You use words that you had to learn and study to make sense out of them. Who wants to do read your stuff and go study such things when it isn't needed for God' Truth?

From the Opening Post JAGG Wrote::
"Christianity is a FAITH.
The word FAITH occurs hundreds and hundreds of times in the Bible
and is presented as being absolutely essential to sustaining
the Christian FAITH".___JAGG
End quote.

The above is very clear.

Also:

The following from the Opening Post is my theme song, so to speak.
■ "without faith it is impossible to please God" Hebrews 11:6
■ "for by grace are you saved through faith" Ephesians 2:8


`

We have to have faith that we have to obey Jesus.

 

[JAGG]

`
Just explain what you want to say instead
of words that I have to go look up.
`

Okay, I want to say the following:


■ "without faith it is impossible to please God"

■ "for by grace are you saved through faith"

■ "he that comes to God must believe that He
exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him"

■ "believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved"

■ God gave His only Son that whoever believes on Him shall
not perish but have eternal life

From the Opening Post JAGG Wrote::
"Christianity is a FAITH.
The word FAITH occurs hundreds and hundreds of times in the Bible
and is presented as being absolutely essential to sustaining
the Christian FAITH".___JAGG

____________


Thanks for your interest in my Opening Post and for your comments.



`