ECT Can you be a Christian and not go to church?

[Idolater]

No, you're claiming that the church in Jerusalem (which is Israel) and the church which is His body are identical. They are not.

No, I'm just quoting Paul. Ephesians 1:22-23 KJV 'the church, 23 Which is his body'

'The Church' is the Body of Christ, according to Paul. Your argument's with him. If you think Paul's spreading confusion, take it up with Paul.

There many church in the Bible. You try to conflate them.

You've identified two. 'The Church' that Paul talks about, and Acts 7:38 KJV. You've also made up this 'church in Jerusalem' that's somehow not part of 'the Church' that Paul invokes. So at most, you've got three, but I protest this third one, so I say you've only got two, not 'many.'

 

[Idolater]

The first church was in Jerusalem as was the first council. Then we read about Antioch, which sent Paul and Barnabas on a missions trip. Then we see the churches in Galatia, Corinth, Ephesus, Thessalonica, Collassai, Laodicea, Sardis, Smyrna, Philadelphia, etc. These were all established churches.

Don't you believe that all of these churches were in communion with each other? You're talking about them as if they were all independent islands of the faith, even though the scriptures make it clear that all Christians everywhere, which meant all the ecclesial communities throughout the world, composed the one Church; the Body of Christ. You're talking like these churches were not all united together and under the authority of the Apostles, even though that beggars belief.

It wasn't until nearly 400 CE that the Roman government made Christianity the State sponsored church

Did that kill the one Church?

and then demanded from the other churches that it follow the church found in the capital city.

Are you talking about the council at Nicaea? Do you disagree with the council's decision?

The only people who found the Roman church to be "THE" church was those who used it for political and economic gain. The people who sought to obey God were very often killed by the church at Rome.

After Peter died, the Apostle John wrote his Gospel, which clarified that Peter's commission was in fact distinct from the other Apostles, which bolstered the already existing notion, belief and practice, that Peter's pastorate when he died (over the church in Rome) was the supreme pastorate of the whole united Church.

 

[Right Divider]

No, I'm just quoting Paul. Ephesians 1:22-23 KJV 'the church, 23 Which is his body'

That is not some universal statement that is saying that ALL churches are the ONE church. Paul is speaking about a particular church, the body of Christ.

'The Church' is the Body of Christ, according to Paul. Your argument's with him.

Once again, you are blind to facts.

If you think Paul's spreading confusion, take it up with Paul.

False accusations. You are like a little child brat.

You've identified two. 'The Church' that Paul talks about, and Acts 7:38 KJV. You've also made up this 'church in Jerusalem' that's somehow not part of 'the Church' that Paul invokes. So at most, you've got three, but I protest this third one, so I say you've only got two, not 'many.'

Well two is certainly more than one.

The church at Jerusalem was believing Israel with their TWELVE apostles that will judge the TWELVE tribes of ISRAEL. Paul was NOT a part of that church and was a persecutor of THAT church until the Lord called Paul and gave him a unique mission. Paul is the first member of the church which is His body.

 

[Idolater]

Is Rome Babylon?

What do you think Peter meant, in writing from Babylon? Do you think it was Babylon? It's not unique, I'm just wondering.

If so, the church at Rome is Babylon.

Non sequitur.

Do you prefer that?

I don't prefer sloppiness in thought.

 

[MennoSota]

You have been indoctrinated with Roman dogma. Put it beneath scripture and test it. You will find that Rome has diverged away from the Bible in many areas.

Don't you believe that all of these churches were in communion with each other? You're talking about them as if they were all independent islands of the faith, even though the scriptures make it clear that all Christians everywhere, which meant all the ecclesial communities throughout the world, composed the one Church; the Body of Christ. You're talking like these churches were not all united together and under the authority of the Apostles, even though that beggars belief.
Did that kill the one Church?
Are you talking about the council at Nicaea? Do you disagree with the council's decision?
After Peter died, the Apostle John wrote his Gospel, which clarified that Peter's commission was in fact distinct from the other Apostles, which bolstered the already existing notion, belief and practice, that Peter's pastorate when he died (over the church in Rome) was the supreme pastorate of the whole united Church.

The church is Christ Jesus. The elect children of God make up the church. The elect have been made alive...in Christ Jesus.
Rome is not the Church. Rome is a man-made political entity deriving it's identity from interpretation of the Bible. It is a denomination, much like Lutheran, Russian Orthodox, Reformed, Baptist, Assemblies of God, etc. Any claims of exclusivity are unfounded in scripture and are therefore illegitimate. You may "feel" that Rome is the one church. Rome may assert that it is the one church. But the Bible does not support Rome's assertion and therefore the assertion must be rejected.

 

[Idolater]

That is why God often hid the true believers from the church at Rome.

I have to ask: You've had the same avatar for many years, where is it from?

 

[genuineoriginal]

what I said still stands: 'Hidden Christians'/'hidden Church' is made up, and not found in Scripture.

True Christians can be found throughout most Christian denominations, including the Roman Catholic denomination, Greek and Eastern Orthodox, and most of the Protestant denominations.
They are "hidden" because they are not fully committed to their denomination over their faith but are instead following the Way with as many of the rites of their chosen denomination as fit in with following the way.
This is how you can recognize the true Christians that are hidden among the various Christian denominations:

Revelation 14:12 12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.​

All of them were in communion with the church in Rome, because all churches composed the one Church, the Body of Christ.

The church of Rome is not the head of the church, neither is the Roman Catholic Pope.
There is one church, the Body of Christ, and it is composed of the true Christians scattered as a minority throughout most of the Christian denominations.

 

[genuineoriginal]

You've also made up this 'church in Jerusalem' that's somehow not part of 'the Church' that Paul invokes.

Acts 15:2-4 2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question. 3 And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren. 4 And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them.​

Historically, the church in Jerusalem, led by James the brother of Jesus, was the head of all Christianity until 66 CE.

 

[Idolater]

Well two is certainly more than one.

And certainly less than 'many,' which is the word you used.

The church at Jerusalem was believing Israel with their TWELVE apostles that will judge the TWELVE tribes of ISRAEL. Paul was NOT a part of that church and was a persecutor of THAT church until the Lord called Paul and gave him a unique mission. Paul is the first member of the church which is His body.

All very nice, and all made up.

 

[genuineoriginal]

I have to ask: You've had the same avatar for many years, where is it from?

 

[Right Divider]

And certainly less than 'many,' which is the word you used.

The EXAMPLE that I gave was TWO, whereas YOU were trying to make "church" mean ONE.

The "church which is His body" is something unique to the ministry that God gave Paul.

The church in Jerusalem was believing ISRAEL.

And NO, the words "church" and "Church" are not different. That's just propaganda to support your FALSE claims.

All very nice, and all made up.

Nope, it's all true. You are just too much of an RCC propagandist to believe it.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Paul is the first member of the church which is His body.

No, because there were others who were in the Body before Paul was:

"Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me" (Ro.16:7).​

It is not difficult to understand to what Paul is making reference when he used the words "in Christ":

"Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new" (2 Cor.5:16-17).​

The words "a new creation" are referring the the New Man, which is the Body of Christ:

"For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby" (Eph.2:14-16).​

 

[Right Divider]

No, because there were others who were in the Body before Paul was:

"Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me" (Ro.16:7).​

Poor confused Jerry, at it again.

Being IN CHRIST is not the same thing as being IN THE BODY OF CHRIST.

Paul says that HE is the PATTERN for those that should hereafter believe. Before Paul there was no body of Christ.

You cannot find any such analogy (the church which is His body) used by the twelve apostles for the twelve tribes of Israel.

You are Jerry. the Great Conflater.

 

[Idolater]

You have been indoctrinated with Roman dogma.

No I haven't. And if I have, it's voluntarily.

Put it beneath scripture and test it.

I did. It passed. And it is the only one too.

You will find that Rome has diverged away from the Bible in many areas.

I have found that the Catholic Church is the most faithful ecclesial community/tradition to the Bible on the earth, and that every other ecclesial community/tradition has diverged in some way.

The church is Christ Jesus.

The Church is the Body of Christ Jesus, and that, through marriage. We are His Bride; that is how we are His Body.

The elect children of God make up the church.

Tautologous.

The elect have been made alive...in Christ Jesus.

No argument.

Rome is not the Church.

The Catholic Church is the Church. All those in communion with her, whether full communion, or imperfect communion, are the one Church, and membership in the Church is determined by one thing---faith in the Gospel.

Rome is a man-made political entity deriving it's identity from interpretation of the Bible.

You've described Protestant ecclesial communities/traditions. The Catholic Church admits that the Apostles taught more than what is preserved for us in writing in the New Testament, which is a trivial thing to admit imo, and bases her teachings on the whole of divine revelation, which includes along with the scriptures, those things the Apostles taught by word-of-mouth, to the bishops whom they created through the imposition of their own hands. Some of these bishops are mentioned by name in the Bible, fwiw.

It is a denomination, much like Lutheran, Russian Orthodox, Reformed, Baptist, Assemblies of God, etc.

The Catholic Church is the one ecclesial community/tradition that Jesus Christ Himself built, and that the Apostles themselves developed, nurtured, cultivated, administrated, and presided over. This is true of none of these other ecclesial communities/traditions that you mention.

Any claims of exclusivity are unfounded in scripture and are therefore illegitimate.

Not unfounded, at all. Either the Church spoken of in the Bible still exists today, or it does not. If it does still exist, then it is the Catholic Church.

You may "feel" that Rome is the one church.

I don't believe I've once mentioned how I feel about this. We're talking about facts of history, and authentic expression of the Christian faith, not 'feelings.'

Rome may assert that it is the one church.

With good reason.

But the Bible does not support Rome's assertion and therefore the assertion must be rejected.

The Bible does support that the Catholic Church is the Church. Bishops. First created by the Apostles, through the imposition of their own hands, and then, documented in the New Testament, instructed to continue this sacrament, of Holy Orders. The college of bishops remains with us to this day.

 

[Right Divider]

You have been indoctrinated with Roman dogma.

No I haven't. And if I have, it's voluntarily..

:rotfl:

Double-minded Idolater. :dizzy:

 

[Idolater]

True Christians can be found throughout most Christian denominations

Of course.

, including the Roman Catholic denomination

You misspelled 'Church.'

, Greek and Eastern Orthodox

The Greek Orthodox are some of the Eastern Orthodox. Eastern Orthodox is an umbrella term, including Greek, Antiochan, Russian, etc. Orthodox churches.

, and most of the Protestant denominations.

Protestant ecclesial communities are rightly called 'denominations,' yes.

They are "hidden" because they are not fully committed to their denomination over their faith but are instead following the Way with as many of the rites of their chosen denomination as fit in with following the way.
This is how you can recognize the true Christians that are hidden among the various Christian denominations:

Revelation 14:12 12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.​

So who do you know who perfectly keeps the commandments of God, and all of them? Because it sounds to me like your 'hidden' Christians are just ghosts.

The church of Rome is not the head of the church, neither is the Roman Catholic Pope.

Christ is the head of the Church.

There is one church, the Body of Christ, and it is composed of the true Christians scattered as a minority throughout most of the Christian denominations.

I agree with everything but that we are 'a minority.' Why would someone 'go to church,' if they didn't believe the Gospel (which is the only way to be a member of the Church)? The minority is those who do not believe the Gospel. They tend to stay home instead, rather than participate in the worship of something they don't believe in.

 

[Idolater]

Historically, the church in Jerusalem, led by James the brother of Jesus, was the head of all Christianity until 66 CE.

This is in clear contradistinction to Peter's clear place as the chief of the disciples, and then the commissioned Apostles.

You made that up.

 

[Idolater]

Nice. tyvm.

 

[Right Divider]

This is in clear contradistinction to Peter's clear place as the chief of the disciples, and then the commissioned Apostles.

You made that up.

Peter is so important that he DISAPPEARS from the book of the Acts of the APOSTLES after chapter 15 and there are 28 chapters in that book.

Your fairy tale has problems.

 

[Idolater]

The EXAMPLE that I gave was TWO, whereas YOU were trying to make "church" mean ONE.

Because Paul. He said 'the' Church. As if his reader would unequivocally know which 'Church' he was talking about.

The "church which is His body" is something unique to the ministry that God gave Paul.

Dispensational male cattle feces.

The church in Jerusalem was believing ISRAEL.

Most members of the church in Jerusalem were descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, sure. But you're trying to make the church in Jerusalem as not a part of 'the' Church Paul talks about, and that's where you're wrong. Dispensationally wrong.

And NO, the words "church" and "Church" are not different. That's just propaganda to support your FALSE claims.

There's only one 'My Church.' Mt16:18KJV It's the Church Paul wrote about. Why would Paul confuse us? He wouldn't. Why do dispensationalists? Who knows. :juggle:

Nope, it's all true. You are just too much of an RCC propagandist to believe it.

The Church never believed what dispensationalists claim is the truth. Never.