ECT Can the Great Tribulation be far off?? Wake Up Christian!!

[fzappa13]

Then why doesn't the text say so.

Perhaps a little more research on your part might be in order. Oh wait, you participated in that thread and now have forgotten and/or rejected the verses offered.

http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?115918-Where-does-the-Church-Flee

There is no tidy sync between Mt24A and the Rev,

Really? I'm not going to do it full justice here as I know you wouldn't read it for reasons of dogma and most others wouldn't read it for reasons of longevity but we've got trumpets and earthquakes and the return of Jesus and the first resurrection and a flight into the wilderness and signs in the sun and moon and the gathering of those that are Christ's in both.

Not sure what more you want in order to make the connection.

 

[Cross Reference]

These are they spoken of in Rev 12:6 and 14. This will be the Jews second wilderness experience and their flight path will largely resemble the first however, this time their flight will begin and end in Jerusalem. This will happen after Satan and his angels lose their war with Michael et al.

Here is a link I believe is the best understanding of Rev 12:1-7. Hope it sheds some light on your thinking. .

http://www.themillennialkingdom.org.uk/TheManchild.htm

 

[Interplanner]

Perhaps a little more research on your part might be in order. Oh wait, you participated in that thread and now have forgotten and/or rejected the verses offered.

http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?115918-Where-does-the-Church-Flee










Really? I'm not going to do it full justice here as I know you wouldn't read it for reasons of dogma and most others wouldn't read it for reasons of longevity but we've got trumpets and earthquakes and the return of Jesus and the first resurrection and a flight into the wilderness and signs in the sun and moon and the gathering of those that are Christ's in both.

Not sure what more you want in order to make the connection.

re 'go back.' He was speaking directly and giving directions to those in front of him. There is no case for a replication of this. There is no theological reason why the old covenant needs to keep operating or be restored. It may be restored by unbelieving Judaizers, but that is not who he is talking to all-of-a-sudden.

re sync
How do you sync something that is not about the future (ch 1) and starts over half way through and doesn't compute when 'men and materiel' are calculated?

You're not distinguishing between Mt24A and B like the text does.

The first resurrection is people who have faith, Jn 5:25 ('is coming AND HAS NOW COME...'). He is offering justification from our debt of sins. That issue--justification--is what eschatology is all about, not about the prognostication of geo-political events.

The wilderness escape was exactly what Judean christians did during the great revolt of 66-70.

There were signs.

All of which is why the Rev is not a prognostication of a distant future, but a pastoral explanation to the disenfranchised Jewish believers of that generation. The 'wedding' takes place with all nations present after the 'harlot' is 'stoned.'

 

[fzappa13]

Here is a link I believe is the best understanding of Rev 12:1-7. Hope it sheds some light on your thinking. .

http://www.themillennialkingdom.org.uk/TheManchild.htm

I'm afraid I have to disagree with Dr. Seiss here. The male child spoken of in this passage would appear to me to be Jesus.

 

[Interplanner]

This is one of the passages where the Rev is trying to tell us what has just taken place in history, not prognosticating world events X000 years in the future.

D'ism is usually trying to find AC instead of our LJC, as they do in Dan 9, to make the 490 years 'work' (ie conform to 2P2P). If 2P2P falls apart, D'ism falls into the dung pit of cult theology.

 

[fzappa13]

You're not distinguishing between Mt24A and B like the text does.

Sorry, my Bible has no Mt24A and B in it. I have no clue what you are talking about.

The first resurrection is people who have faith

No it is not. It is for those who paid for their faith with their very lives. They were killed because of their faith. The Bible says this repeatedly.

 

[Cross Reference]

I'm afraid I have to disagree with Dr. Seiss here. The male child spoken of in this passage would appear to me to be Jesus.

Well, #1 perhaps you can explain why Jesus wasn't immediately caught up to heaven? #2 Mary didn't flee into the wilderness? #3 The manchild isn't put to death . . on a cross? #4 Why are these all taking place 3 1/2 years before Christ returns? You have two thousand years to account for.

Here is the link to "The Apocalypse" Seiss authored:

http://www.indywatchman.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/The-Apocalypse-Joseph-Seiss.pdf

Review Lecture 26 that speaks of what we are discussing re the "Woman" and "Manchild", et al.

The link allows one to copy and paste the whole thing [1000 pages +/], depending of font selection.

 

[Interplanner]

Sorry, my Bible has no Mt24A and B in it. I have no clue what you are talking about.






No it is not. It is for those who paid for their faith with their very lives. They were killed because of their faith. The Bible says this repeatedly.

Most readers of Mt24 etc who have some NT background can see that at v29, the setting is no longer 1st century Judea. It switches to the whole world and could be 'right after' the events in Judea.

The reason most ordinary Christians don't see this is that D'ism has been very effective at 1, popularizing the idea that Mt24 is about the distant future, and 2, burying the forceful connection to the destruction of Jerusalem, which Christ had now mentioned for the 4th time in as many chapters. D'ism cannot tolerate any such reference.

re the resurrection,
you owe me an explanation: 'the time is coming and now has come...' in Jn 5. The same author as the Rev. If you could realize that the reign of Christ is not like a theocracy on earth, but is truly going on right now because of the surpassing power of the Gospel, Rom 1, then you might see that believers who have died in Christ also 'reign' with him--they are victorious, they inspire confidence in death among other believers. "The second death has no power over them" he says, even though they died the first death.

1st resurrection = belief
1st death = mortality
2nd death = the judgement of God against them forever; condemnation

D'ism tries to make us think that the millenium is a 'switch-back' to a 2nd program and people in the Bible, but this is mistaken. There is no 2P2P in the Bible, but D'ism imposes it irrationally. This is why they are 'literal' about it (where 'literalism' means you can read the most ordinary thing in Mt 24's intro and they say it is X000 years in the future).

 

[beameup]

That's my point.

You're taking the "mark" as literal, but then everything else as figurative.

(Exodus 13:15-16) This is why I sacrifice to the Lord the first male offspring of every womb and redeem each of my firstborn sons.’ 16 And it will be like a sign on your hand and a symbol on your forehead that the Lord brought us out of Egypt with his mighty hand.”

HINT: microchips didn't exist during the Exodus.

Clearly to the Jew, this would be a reminder of the phylacteries which are worn for prayer and were used in Jesus' time.

 

[Interplanner]

Clearly to the Jew, this would be a reminder of the phylacteries which are worn for prayer and were used in Jesus' time.

This is the problem with modern pop eschatology. The spirit is completely missing, but the 'technology' or 'geography' is there, supposedly 'fulfilling prophecy.' It is an intolerable dichotomy.

There is no place where the NT refers to the restored Israel in the OT where the Spirit of God does not move powerfully and produces the type of results found in the work of the apostles. First is Joel 2 which was fulfilled in the Pentecost event, even though each of the physical details were not.

This is 2P2P at its worst, where the spirit and body are allowed to exist in two unrelated realms, but supposedly 'fulfilling prophecy.'

 

[fzappa13]

Well, #1 perhaps you can explain why Jesus wasn't immediately caught up to heaven?

Apparently He was charged with a task to perform first. Lucky for us He did.

#2 Mary didn't flee into the wilderness?

I'm not aware of any verse commanding her to do this.

#3 The manchild isn't put to death . . on a cross?

The manchild also isn't ressurected to earthly life in the passage in question either so, why do you argue for it?

#4 Why are these all taking place 3 1/2 years before Christ returns? You have two thousand years to account for.

For sure...



Hos 5: 14 For I will be unto Ephraim as a lion, and as a young lion to the house of Judah: I, even I, will tear and go away; I will take away, and none shall rescue him.

15 I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early.

6:1 Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.

2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.

3 Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth.




A day is as a thousand years unto the Lord, right?

 

[Cross Reference]

Apparently He was charged with a task to perform first. Lucky for us He did.

Don't you believe this requires of you an investigation?

I'm not aware of any verse commanding her to do this.

That's right, isn't it. Nor is it written Mary was a ". . woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; Revelation 12:1 (NASB)

The manchild also isn't ressurected to earthly life in the passage in question either so, why do you argue for it?

Because it is also the ONLY rapture that takes place for any group of people mentioned in the scriptures. . . any group leaving this earth without dying.

A day is as a thousand years unto the Lord, right?

Yep and it has been 6 days since Adam.

Read Lecture 26. Just the first 1/4 should satisfy this.

 

[Interplanner]

Apparently He was charged with a task to perform first. Lucky for us He did.





I'm not aware of any verse commanding her to do this.





The manchild also isn't ressurected to earthly life in the passage in question either so, why do you argue for it?




For sure...



Hos 5: 14 For I will be unto Ephraim as a lion, and as a young lion to the house of Judah: I, even I, will tear and go away; I will take away, and none shall rescue him.

15 I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early.

6:1 Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.

2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.

3 Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth.




A day is as a thousand years unto the Lord, right?

The woman fleeing into the wilderness for safety is the Judean church of the 1st century. Later when the harlot and her ride on the beast are done, the wedding can take place.

 

[fzappa13]

Most readers of Mt24 etc who have some NT background can see that at v29, the setting is no longer 1st century Judea. It switches to the whole world and could be 'right after' the events in Judea.

The reason most ordinary Christians don't see this is that D'ism has been very effective at 1, popularizing the idea that Mt24 is about the distant future, and 2, burying the forceful connection to the destruction of Jerusalem, which Christ had now mentioned for the 4th time in as many chapters. D'ism cannot tolerate any such reference.

re the resurrection,
you owe me an explanation: 'the time is coming and now has come...' in Jn 5. The same author as the Rev. If you could realize that the reign of Christ is not like a theocracy on earth, but is truly going on right now because of the surpassing power of the Gospel, Rom 1, then you might see that believers who have died in Christ also 'reign' with him--they are victorious, they inspire confidence in death among other believers. "The second death has no power over them" he says, even though they died the first death.

1st resurrection = belief
1st death = mortality
2nd death = the judgement of God against them forever; condemnation

D'ism tries to make us think that the millenium is a 'switch-back' to a 2nd program and people in the Bible, but this is mistaken. There is no 2P2P in the Bible, but D'ism imposes it irrationally. This is why they are 'literal' about it (where 'literalism' means you can read the most ordinary thing in Mt 24's intro and they say it is X000 years in the future).

By "D'ism" I'm guessing you're referring to Dispensationalism and if this is indeed true then you are talking to the wrong guy. When you are ready to address what I said let me know. Otherwise I have no interest in defending the notions of others for they are theirs and not mine.

 

[fzappa13]

Don't you believe this requires of you an investigation?

I believe all of the Bible worthy of repeated investigation. I have found that revisiting verses long since reviewed often offers a little different meaning after having digested other verses. It a process ... lifelong if you are willing to apply yourself that long.

That's right, isn't it. Nor is it written Mary was a ". . woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; Revelation 12:1 (NASB)

I never suggested this and I would hazard a guess that you, like so many others, presuppose you know what I believe before inquiring of the matter.

Because it is also the ONLY rapture that takes place for any group of people mentioned in the scriptures. . . any group leaving this earth without dying.

I do not know what you are referring to here if it is a response to something I said.

Yep and it has been 6 days since Adam.

... and two since He tore and went away. He will return at the beginning of the third day after that.

Read Lecture 26. Just the first 1/4 should satisfy this.

I'll have a look as time permits and thanks for pointing me to your formative sources. It shortens the period of any effort to understand.

 

[fzappa13]

The woman fleeing into the wilderness for safety is the Judean church of the 1st century. Later when the harlot and her ride on the beast are done, the wedding can take place.

I think you are about 3/4 right ... your time frame is just a little askew.

 

[beameup]

First is Joel 2 which was fulfilled in the Pentecost event, even though each of the physical details were not.

It was "partially fulfilled". The 144,000 will "fulfill" Joel 2, with POWERS of instant knowledge of languages (ie: "tongues"), instant spiritual transportation (like Philip), and instant healings and raising of the dead.

 

[Cross Reference]

I believe all of the Bible worthy of repeated investigation. I have found that revisiting verses long since reviewed often offers a little different meaning after having digested other verses. It a process ... lifelong if you are willing to apply yourself that long.






I never suggested this and I would hazard a guess that you, like so many others, presuppose you know what I believe before inquiring of the matter.





I do not know what you are referring to here if it is a response to something I said.




... and two since He tore and went away. He will return at the beginning of the third day after that.




I'll have a look as time permits and thanks for pointing me to your formative sources. It shortens the period of any effort to understand.

You just went on my ignore list which is pretty long so, join the crowd.

 

[Interplanner]

It was "partially fulfilled". The 144,000 will "fulfill" Joel 2, with POWERS of instant knowledge of languages (ie: "tongues"), instant spiritual transportation (like Philip), and instant healings and raising of the dead.

Funny how none of the apostles mention that. Better to go with what they did say.

 

[Interplanner]

It was "partially fulfilled". The 144,000 will "fulfill" Joel 2, with POWERS of instant knowledge of languages (ie: "tongues"), instant spiritual transportation (like Philip), and instant healings and raising of the dead.

Once again, when things are right in front of their eyes, 'literalists' say the text is referring to something X000 years from now.

It's like hearing something like this:

dateline Sep.11.01
President Bush on national TV: We've just received word that there has been a four-pronged attack on the US. In the year 4,332, there will be an attack on 32 major cities in the US. There will be local chaos and damage from WMDs...

I don't know about you, but I find this to be quite a goofy thing to do, and you do not when you read Acts 2.

You would first have to demonstrate why a piece like the Rev, which is no place for grounding any doctrines, says on its first page that everything in it was to happen right away; it says that 3 times.