Can the Christians here accept the Biblical fact that God is one?

[Ps82]

Hello Elia,

You wrote:

If anybody says JC is the same as Y-H-W-H then you are stuck with the fact that God is his own son and at the same time his own father.

Yep - I know this sort of miracle is impossible for mankind, but you limit God, who is the omni-present creator of everything, if you assume that HE could not accomplish this.

If you study the scripture with a more open mind to divine miracles, then you will see that God created a bodily form for himself - before he created the bodily form for Adam after ITS likeness - Genesis 1:26-27

KJV. Knowing this makes it easy to understand that God would use that image repeatedly. God not only shared his personal visible created likeness with the first Adam ... but also used IT himself as a super-natural presence- Exodus 24:9-12 KJV... and he also used IT to manifest the Promised Savior... Colossians 1:14-15 KJV.

Lord Jesus was the express image of the invisible God, the image, that was the first born of every creature.

IOW, God's IMAGE was the first born of every creature ... only after God had his IMAGE did HE share ITs likeness with the first Adam.

You wrote.

Then you are stuck with the fact that when JC prays to his father, God is praying to himself.

Yes, God the Son - appearing as his own son ... as an individual with flesh, was able to pray to God the Father, who was the divine God appearing as an individual with a heavenly super-natural body.

There is ONE invisible spiritual God ... but HE was/is able to appear in multiples simultaneously and of differing essences.

Besides, Jesus gave us a hint of why he prayed publicly before others. It was so people would understand that LORD God the Father, whom the Jews were aware, was working through him. Obviously these prayers of Jesus to the Father, to which you have referred were public prayers ... for some individual recorded them in the scriptures.

You quoted one of Jesus's prayers and commented:

Luke 22:41-42: “and He knelt down and began to pray, saying, "Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Yours be done."

So here God has a different will than himself???

There is a great example in Genesis 18-19 where THREE super-natural men visited Abram ... Abram referred to all three of them by the same name or title. The KJ Bible uses the term LORD as to how he address THEM. If you follow the activities of three LORDs, you will find that they work in ONE accord to accomplish God's will ... but along the way they each have freewill to change their minds and change their planned activities simultaneously.

So the fact that God the son, who was also an individual appearing in mortal flesh, is about to endure humiliation, torture, and a long death is lamenting the pain that he knows he is about to endure...is not unreasonable. Yet, you know that Jesus did not follow the fear stemming from his human flesh ... but only did what the Father had planned from the Start. Yes, I would say that God, as the Son, dreaded tasting a painful death... and may have had thoughts of whether there could be another WAY... but there wasn't. The living flesh of the Son had to taste death.

Even in heaven JC is subjected to the Father, according to Corinthians 15:28, Matthew 20:23, Fillipens 2:9, and others.

So God is subjected to himself???

Yes, I think you will realize that the divine LORD Jesus was also subjected to many of the laws of nature of this created world. He was appearing with mortal flesh ... He grew tired, needed food, and water, could be killed. God subject himself to our condition in order to rescue us out of our condition.

You wrote:

When JC was hanging at the cross, he cried out: “My God, my God, why did you forsake me?” Matthew 27:46
So God forsake himself???

He called out Eli, Eli ... which can be interpreted as My God My God ... but is was also the name of the LAST priest that was accepted unconditionally by God. Read I Samuel 2:27-35. It was Eli that forsake the LORD God ... and honored his sons above God. God told Eli that his house would be destroyed ... and that no longer would HE honor a priest just because he descended for Aaron. God was planning only to honor those (priests) who honored him. I happen to believe that when Jesus called out the NAME of ELI, which means "My God" he was referring to the priesthood, who was once again forsaking God. The priests should have understood that his words referred back to OT scripture regarding the priesthood.

You shared:

Collossians 3:1; “set your hearts on things above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God.”

God is sitting on his own right hand???

Oh yes! The invisible God appeared among men as the super-natural Father ... and then appeared again as the natural Son... AND the SON has risen and been glorified after the likeness of the super-natural Father ... and now TWO glorified LORDS sit on their thrones representing the ONE GOD!!!

How do I know that Jesus, being the WORD of God, who was God and yet was simultaneously with God, has equal glory with the Father?
Easy answer ... look at a request that Jesus made in a prayer:

John 17:4-5 KJV
I (the fleshly LORD Jesus) have glorified you (LORD God the super-natural Father) on the earth: I have finished the work (in flesh) which you gave me to do.
And now, O Father, glorify you me with your own self with the glory which I had with you before the world was.

See! Lord Jesus, as the WORD, had shared the SAME glorious presence with Father before he appeared as flesh. He got that glory back ... and now appears next to the Father. Praise God!!!

You wrote:

God died at the cross, slaughtered by his own creatures?

If so, who resurrected him?

The body of Emmanuel, Lord Jesus, died ... and the ONE God tasted physical human death through that body... but God can't die!!!
That's why God was able to pick that body back up again ... resurrect IT ... and take it to a heavenly place ... and glorify it!!!

This was the miracle ... the WAY God prepared for the salvation of mankind before the world was!!! Praise God.

You requested of me:

Remember there is only one God: Y-H-W-H who IS one.
"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5

Yes, Praise God ... who said Isaiah 43:11:
I, (the invisible God) even I, am the LORD (the God who appeared to Israel) and without ME (as the invisible God and the visible LORD) there is no savior!!!

 

[Ps82]

Hi oatmeal,
I had mentioned that God is the sower of the seed and is also the ONE who waters... to which you replied.

You wrote:

Ok, ok you got me. you are right.
let's open the Bible though just to be sure.
Wow. someone did not read the Bible.

Paul planted, Apollos watered. God gave the increase.

It is time for you to read the Bible.

What more do I need to say?

Okay, let's take a look at the truth - word upon word, line upon line...

You find that Paul is scolding people for thinking with a carnal mind. He accused them of remaining like babes, who still could not comprehend the truth.

Some people were arguing or boasting about being followers of Paul or followers of Appollos... causing strife and divisions. Paul told them that was due to their carnal thinking.

Paul told them their thinking was all wrong ... for he and Appollos were just ministers by whom the people had believed ... as it was the LORD who gave each man(person) the ability to believe.

QUOTE: I Corinthians 3:5 Paul said:
Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom you believed, EVEN AS THE LORD GAVE to every man.[/QUOTE]

You see ... it was actually the LORD that gave the people the ability to believe and Paul and Appollos had merely presented the truth!

I Corinthians:3
6 I have planted, Apollos watered; BUT GOD gave the increase.[/QUOTE]

I will give you a point for understanding that disciples of our LORD Jesus were commissioned to spread the gospel of the truth of his identity ... therefore they continued to plant the truth among men ...

BUT who was the original SEED that was planted, the SEED who was the TRUTH, the WAY, and the LIFE?
ANSWER:
Jesus was that original SEED ... and GOD PLANTED HIM first - before the gospel could then be planted by disciples afterward.

Yes, people like Paul and Appollos went around ministering to the new believers (aka: watering them as they grew from babes with little understanding to those with more mature understanding)... but who was it that Paul said did the real WATERING of HIS crop of believers in verse 5 above:

QUOTE:
verse:5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom you believed, EVEN AS THE LORD GAVE to every man.

You mentioned:

We need to read scripture to check out what other people are telling us. That is our responsibility as individuals.
II Timothy 2:15
These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.
Acts 17:11
These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
Read and enjoy.

Surely, you are not using the scripture in a condescending way to rebuke me. I have looked at what Paul said ... and I even understand what he said.

Don't you know that Jesus told the woman at the well that it was HE, who HAD WATER to give her ... WATER from which she would never thirst again?

It was Jesus, our divine savior of Isaish 43:11, who had brought the WATER to give unto humanity for salvation ... the spiritual water that would bring the revelation of truth and eternal life. He brought the HOLY SPIRIT. You know ... the WATERS OF THE DEEP upon which The SPIRIT of God moved. Genesis 1:2 KJV

Don't you comprehend the parable of the sower of the seed into the world found in Matthew 13?
The disciples asked the Lord Jesus to explain the parable to them... and Lord Jesus said this about himself:

Matthew 13:37
He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; (IOW, he,himself, sowed the seed ... as Isaiah 43:11KJV)

Matthew 13:38
The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one.

Don't you know that the promised Messiah was to be THE SEED, which God would ultimately send into the world through the womb of Woman to harm the seed of the serpent? Genesis 3:15

It was GOD, who planted THE SEED ... and God who brought THE WATER for watering into the world.
God accomplished this through the use of his personal conduit/HIS physical IMAGE manifested as our LORD in flesh.

Isaiah 43:11
I, even I am, the LORD, and without ME there is no savior.

 

[Lighthouse]

Lighthouse,

Yes, I am soooooo serioussssss.

Where is this holy ghost?

Why isn't he one with JC and the Father?

Why is HG not mentioned in John 1:1.

Is it because HG is not God?

Was HG out of town in the beginning?

What was it?

If John 1:1 teaches the trinity like so many trinitarians claim it does, why are only word and God mentioned?

word and God are only two, not three.

Well maybe 2=3, why not? if 3=1 why not 2=3?

then of course since 3=1 and 3=2 then logically and mathematically, 1=2.

so then 3+3=2? or does it equal 4?

Your math is confusing me.

Wait, that is not math.

That is not math.

That is religion.

All rules of logic go out the window when religion is discussed.

Truth, not religion, sets people free. John 8:32

oatmeal

If I say my father and I are family does that mean I have no other family?

"Let us make man in our image."

 

[DFT_Dave]

Well said,

Thank you.

I've been reading this tread, I'll make s few comments soon, but since your from Wisconsin, do you have a super bowl pick? We're a year apart and both from Wisconsin. I was born in Superior, where in Wisconsin are from?

--Dave

 

[Elia]

Hello Elia,

You wrote:


Yep - I know this sort of miracle is impossible for mankind, but you limit God, who is the omni-present creator of everything, if you assume that HE could not accomplish this.

Bs'd

God can accomplish whatever He wants.

But DID He accomplish that? What does He tell us about that subject in His word?

What God tells us is that He is ONE, and therefore not three.

So the trinity goes out the window.

If you study the scripture with a more open mind to divine miracles, then you will see that God created a bodily form for himself - before he created the bodily form for Adam after ITS likeness - Genesis 1:26-27

I looked at that text, and it just doesn't say that God created a bodily form for Himself.

You are seeing things which don't exist.

KJV. Knowing this makes it easy to understand that God would use that image repeatedly. God not only shared his personal visible created likeness with the first Adam ... but also used IT himself as a super-natural presence- Exodus 24:9-12 KJV... and he also used IT to manifest the Promised Savior... Colossians 1:14-15 KJV.

Lord Jesus was the express image of the invisible God, the image, that was the first born of every creature.

IOW, God's IMAGE was the first born of every creature ... only after God had his IMAGE did HE share ITs likeness with the first Adam.

You wrote.


Yes, God the Son - appearing as his own son ... as an individual with flesh, was able to pray to God the Father, who was the divine God appearing as an individual with a heavenly super-natural body.

There is ONE invisible spiritual God ... but HE was/is able to appear in multiples simultaneously and of differing essences.

And then God starts to talk to Himself??

Besides, Jesus gave us a hint of why he prayed publicly before others. It was so people would understand that LORD God the Father, whom the Jews were aware, was working through him. Obviously these prayers of Jesus to the Father, to which you have referred were public prayers ... for some individual recorded them in the scriptures.

You quoted one of Jesus's prayers and commented:


There is a great example in Genesis 18-19 where THREE super-natural men visited Abram ...

Three angels.

Abram referred to all three of them by the same name or title. The KJ Bible uses the term LORD

He calls them "my lord".

You wrote:


He called out Eli, Eli ... which can be interpreted as My God My God ... but is was also the name of the LAST priest that was accepted unconditionally by God. Read I Samuel 2:27-35. It was Eli that forsake the LORD God ... and honored his sons above God. God told Eli that his house would be destroyed ... and that no longer would HE honor a priest just because he descended for Aaron. God was planning only to honor those (priests) who honored him. I happen to believe that when Jesus called out the NAME of ELI, which means "My God" he was referring to the priesthood, who was once again forsaking God. The priests should have understood that his words referred back to OT scripture regarding the priesthood.

A very forced and very unlikely explanation.

You shared:

Oh yes! The invisible God appeared among men as the super-natural Father ... and then appeared again as the natural Son... AND the SON has risen and been glorified after the likeness of the super-natural Father ... and now TWO glorified LORDS sit on their thrones representing the ONE GOD!!!

So you admit you are worshiping two lords, you just don't want to admit you are worshiping two gods.
But one plus one really is two, and not one.
Every elementary school graduate can tell you that.

How do I know that Jesus, being the WORD of God, who was God and yet was simultaneously with God, has equal glory with the Father?
Easy answer ... look at a request that Jesus made in a prayer:

John 17:4-5 KJV
I (the fleshly LORD Jesus) have glorified you (LORD God the super-natural Father) on the earth: I have finished the work (in flesh) which you gave me to do.
And now, O Father, glorify you me with your own self with the glory which I had with you before the world was.

So God had to ask Himself to glorify Himself??

You requested of me:


Yes, Praise God ... who said Isaiah 43:11:
I, (the invisible God) even I, am the LORD (the God who appeared to Israel) and without ME (as the invisible God and the visible LORD) there is no savior!!!

Here is Isaiah 43:11; "I, even I, am Y-H-W-H; and beside me there is no saviour."

And like the Good Book says: "Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!"

And therefore Y-H-W-H is not made up of two persons, or two bodies, or two whatevers, but absolutely totally ONE.



Eliyahu light unto the nations


"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5

This message is sent to you from Mount Zion, Jerusalem, Israel.

"From Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of Y-H-W-H from Jerusalem." Isaiah 2:3, Micah 4:2

 

[Elia]

If I say my father and I are family does that mean I have no other family?

Bs'd

No, it doesn't mean that.

But what does that question have to do with the price of tea in China?

"Let us make man in our image."

Genesis 1:26; "Let us make man" If anybody finds in a text the word "us", would any normal person assume that it refers to one person with a multi-personality disorder? Of course not.

But why then, when Christians see the word "us" in the Bible, do they think that?

Gen 1:26 is used as a 'proof' that there is more than one God, or one God who is not one, eventhough the Bible clearly teaches that there is only one God who is one. and despite the fact that there are several other valid explanations for the plural word "us". One explanation is that it is a majestic plural as used by kings. Another possible explanation is that God was talking to the angels.

Some Christians try to refute the last argument by saying that the angels didn't create. They point to Genesis 1:1; "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." They say: 'God was the creator, and not the angels.' However, it is a given in Jewish law that an emissary is equal to the one who sends him. When a Jewish man marries a woman through an agent, the legal effect is the same as when he marries her personally. A good Biblical example of this is to be found in Genesis 19 where is spoken about the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. God sent two angels to destroy the cities, the angels said to Lot in verse 13: "For we are about to destroy this place, because the outcry against its people has become great before the LORD, and the LORD has sent us to destroy it." Upon this Lot says to his sons in law: "Up, get out of this place; for the LORD is about to destroy the city." Lot didn't say: "The angels are going to destroy the city" He said: "The LORD (Y-H-W-H in the Hebrew text) is going to destroy the city". And in verse 29 it is written: "So it was that, when God destroyed the cities of the valley...." So the angels were send by God to destroy the cities, but God is considered to be the one who did it, because He was the one who sent them. So why shouldn't the same hold true for the creation?

But one way or the other, no plural created man. Look in Genesis 5:1; "When God created man ..." In Hebrew this is: "bara Elohiem adam" Here the verb "to create", in Hebrew "bara", is in the singular, indicating clearly that Elohiem who created man is one. The same goes for the very first verse of the Bible: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." The word created is here written in the singular; it says "bara". If God was a plural, it should have been "baru".




Eliyahu light unto the nations


"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5

This message is sent to you from Mount Zion, Jerusalem, Israel.

"From Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of Y-H-W-H from Jerusalem." Isaiah 2:3, Micah 4:2

 

[Nick M]

So the Bible teaches clearly that God is ONE.

Is it possible for the Christians here to accept that Biblical fact?

:up:

He is not the god of the sun, love, war, zues, apollo, etc etc. There is only one God. And not Baal, or anything other fictious god introduced to Israel by somebodies wife.

 

[Sheila B]

Christianity believes in a God the Father, a god the son, and a god the spirit.

And they all have to be squeezed into one God.

Which leaves only one conclusion, namely that the Christian God is his own son, and at the same time his own father.



Eliyahu

You are not wrong. One way for you to understand what we believe is to believe your own SOD writings of Judaism.

The Christian teachings including the catholic teachings on the Trinity are very dry and incomplete compared to the Jewish understanding of the Godhead.
Here's a brief synopsis of what I have learned from your own Sages. call them nuts if you want, I believe they have divine light:

"Yod-Hei-Vav-Hei The Name

Yod is Chockmah- the Father
Upper Hei is Binah- the Mother (eternal love never ceasing, Imma)
Vav is ZerAnpin - the Son
Lower Hei is HaKal Tapuhin Kadishin - the Daughter
Therefore The Father, the Mother, the Son, the Daughter are all included in the Name. "

And you think we have a crowded Godhead!!!

Because there are only Three Letters in The Name, we also say there are only Three Divine Persons in the Godhead.
Father- Son- Spirit (Love)
Echad! :thumb:

 

[Sheila B]

The same goes for the very first verse of the Bible: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." The word created is here written in the singular; it says "bara". If God was a plural, it should have been "baru".

Your own Sages in the Zohar have interpreted with SOD:

"Be-reshit bara Elohim"
"With beginning,____created God." Genesis 1:1
Commentary by Daniel Matt The Zohar p.110

"The subject of the verse, (Elohim), God, follows the verb (bara), created. In its typical hyperliteral fashion, the author(s) of the Zohar insists on reading the words in the exact order in which they appear, thereby transforming God into the object!"
"The opening words of the bible no longer mean: In the beginning God created, but rather: With beginning [Chokmah-Wisdom], the ineffable source created Elohim [the palace of Binah]."

"The verb (bara), created, thought to be reserved for creation ex nihilo, refers in the opening verse of genesis to an act of emanation, the emanation of Binah (Elohim) from the primordial point of Chokmah (Reshit)."

My comments:
From what I understand so far of these teachings, the Godhead is "hidden Father" is spoken of having an impulse called "emanation" which "manifests as a point of light". This is the scond sefirah: Chokmah ("Wisdom"), which is called Beginning because it is the first ray of divine light to appear..."

my comment-I see this as explaining in the Hebrew language how the First emanates the Son Wisdom. First and Second of the Godhead. The Third of the Godhead is described thus (p. 110):

"The point expands into a circle, a palace- the third sefirah: Binah ("Understanding"). She is the divine womb, where the seed of Hochmah, the divine father, is sown."

my comment- I see three divine sefirot described here.
Why does Christianity call these Three - "Three Divine Persons"?
We belive the Second Person of the Trintiy came to reveal God's Face to us (the hidden One) through a human nature so we could understand Him more.
The Hidden One is One with the Chokmah-Wisdom and the Binah-Palace ("mother").

"With beginning, ______created God."

 

[Sheila B]

The Zohar (p. 111):
Matt's commentary:

"At the burning bush, God reveals His Name to Moses: (ehyeh asher ehyeh), I will be who I will be [or I am who I am]. Here the first two of the three Hebrew words are applied to Keter and Binah respectively."
"Who... Refering to Binah, the palace, the first sephirah to emanate from Hochmah, known as (reshit), beginning."

p. 113
"(YHVH Elohim YHVH), YHVH, our God, YHVH"
"This triad of divine names from the opening line of the Shema corresponds to the triad interpreted above, (Ehyeh asher ehyeh), I am who I am. "

Echad!

The catholic understanding is that With Love the Father begot the Son. Or, a better Biblical order:
The Father With Love begot The Son.
The Father with Spirit begot The Son and the Son loves the Father with Spirit:
Y H V H

The circle of love is described in the Godhead.

 

[Sheila B]

YHVH is "one alone" because God is the only uncreated thing is the universe. All else is created "outside" of Him, by Him. But God is not "alone". He has Himself!
Undivided unity.

 

[Ps82]

Hi Elia, I'm sorry that I'm just finding this reply for me, and I hope you run across it.;2581420]Bs'd
I had written that:
God was able to be the Son and the Father at the same time.

Then you wrote your conclusions and asked a few things as well:

God can accomplish whatever He wants.
But DID He accomplish that (above)?

What does He tell us about that subject in His word?
What God tells us is that He is ONE, and therefore not three.
So the trinity goes out the window.

No- not out the window. In fact, I believe that scripture bears out the truth that God was able to be the Father and the Son simultaneously. I believe that there are enough clues in the Bible that God appeared as ONE LORD and HIS PRESENCE represented both the Father and Son as ONE ... and the He did this sort of thing more than once. Jesus made these two events quite clear for us.

FIRST:
Jesus, who when he prayed out loud, had mentioned that he prayed aloud so that people would believe the truth about he and the Father. He mentioned this fact right before his prayer when he raised Lazarus from the dead.

Therefore, watch what information Jesus prayed out loud for the benefit of his disciples.

John 17:4 KJV
I(Lord Jesus) have glorified You (Father LORD God) on the earth: I have finished the work which YOU gave me to do. And now, O Father (LORD God) glorify YOU me with YOUR own self with the glory which I had (or I shared) with YOU before the world was.

Jesus made it clear that John 1:1,2,3 KJV was the truth. He, as the invisible WORD of God was both WITH the Father God while being the Father God simultaneously.

When the invisible God chose to use his visible created IMAGE to manifest his presence among men ... that presence represented ALL of God... therefore the living WORD of God was WITH the Father and now from John 17:4 KJV you know just how they were together.
Not only was the WORD part of the invisible living spiritual nature of the ONE God, but when the image of the LORD appeared IT represented the Father and the Son as ... ONE!

SECOND:
Then Jesus backed up the fact that God was able to do this sort of thing (manifesting his pluralist invisible living nature as ONE visible Lord among men) by plainly telling everyone this:
John 14:9 KJV
Jesus said: "Philip, have I been so long time with you, and yet you have no know me? He (anyone) that has SEEN ME has SEEN THE FATHER, and (so) how say you then, 'Show us the Father?' "

Again he said: John 12:45 KJV He that SEETH ME (Lord Jesus the Son) SEETH HIM (Lord God the Father) that sent me.

In the two revelations above we can clearly see how when anyone in the OT looked upon the LORD God ... they saw the IMAGE of God that represented both the Father and the Son. God could have honestly said: When you have ME ... you have seen the Savior/Son!

In fact God did say such a thing in Isaiah 43:11 KJV
I,(the ONE invisible God), even I, am the LORD (God who is able to appear) and without ME (as the ONE invisible God who appears as LORD) there is no Savior.

Jesus clearly told us that he and the Father were the same ... and God clearly told us that HE and the Son/savior were the same!

The only differences I can find between the two ... is that:
1.) the LORD God first manifested his presence as the Father with a super-natural essence while the LORD God later manifested his presence as the Son with an essence of mortal flesh.
2.) While the Father was the Son... performing his WORKS as a saving sacrifice in mortal flesh to die... He willingly subjected Himself to both the laws of nature and to His own written laws and to His own predestined mission.

I had suggested that you carefully study Genesis 1:26-27 to see that God had created an image for himself, but you said this:

I looked at that text, and it just doesn't say that God created a bodily form for Himself.

... Sooo... I guess I will have to spell it out plainly for you.
You are right that the verse does not say:
I God created an image and used it for my purposes!... BUT I guess God felt like men would learn to read with comprehension... so he succinctly said:
God said: "Let us make man in our IMAGE, after our LIKENESS..."

To spell out this revelation for you I write:
US and OUR refers to the full nature of the ONE Elohiym (a collective noun representing the plurality of his invisible spiritual nature.)
IMAGE refers to a visible form

God states clearly that He had an IMAGE (singular) that represented his FULL spiritual nature...and that he was going to use IT ,in this particular instance, in order to give created humanity a bodily image like IT.

God had his IMAGE first ... and reproduced a likeness of IT for mankind (Adam). Adam was a male presence ... so the IMAGE originally belonging to God must have been a male - or Adam would have looked like something else!

Colossians 1:14,15 KJV ties this truth to the NT...

When God the Father came as his own Son to shed his blood in death on the cross ... He, as the Son must have explained things more clearly to his disciples ... for one of them wrote this:
(Lord Jesus) in whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
(Lord Jesus) who is the IMAGE of the invisible God, the (IMAGE) firstborn of every creature.

God appeared simultaneously as the Father and Son in the OT with a super-natural presence of the LORD.
God appeared simultaneously as the Son and the Father in the NT with a mortal fleshly presence of the LORD.

You said to me:

You are seeing things which don't exist.

I say to you - that you are not seeing what is so clearly written and revealed. Isaiah 43:11 KJV.

I will stop here due to length ... but will be back with the rest later.

 

[Ps82]

Elia, you wrote:

And then God starts to talk to Himself??

Yes! Don’t continue to conform God to man’s limitations! Open your mind to super natural revelation.

Remember, the invisible essence of the ONE God is so FULL of living spiritual nature that a collective noun was first used to describe HIM and IT – Elohiym.

That's like saying that God’s nature is a multifaceted collective of living nature – like a power team!

God had already manifested His presence visually as the Father LORD God … so this presence (this IMAGE) of the LORD God the Father ALREADY LITERALLY EXISTED!

The people and religious leaders of Israel in the days of Lord Jesus ALREADY knew about the EXISTING LORD God of Israel.

There REALLY was a heavenly Father to which people and even Jesus could pray! So, when Jesus prayed aloud to the Father … the people in his day understood exactly to whom he was praying... AND, remember what Jesus had said about his praying aloud to the Father in public. It was for their enlightenment.

John 11:41,42 KJV
“Father, I thank You that You have heard me. AND I KNEW that You heard me always, BUT because of the people which stand by I (have) said it (this), (so) that THEY MAY BELIEVE that You have sent me.”

IOW, Jesus, being God, did not need to pray to God the Father … for he was HE … but he did so in the earshot of people for the benefit of the people … so they would believe and understand that he had been sent out from the ONE true God, about whom they already knew!

Yet, also ... remember that Jesus, Emmanuel manifested as a fleshly image of the ONE God, could correctly pray to The LORD God the Father, who was the super-natural presence of God that already existed ... and simultaneousl be Him manifested a second time as an image of flesh.

With the manifestation of the Son ... there was then simultaneously TWO manifested LORD'S existing! The book of Revelation states the THEY are now able to sit beside each other glorified and on their thrones... as creator and savior! They are the ONE God ... manifested as THEM. Pronouns like us, and our mentioned in Genesis 1:26-27 still are appropriate!

The ONE God is a collective of living nature... which God is able to reveal in a literal manner by his personal IMAGE.

I even hesitate to limit God to a trinity ... for I think that God could surely manifest an infinite number of his IMAGE ... and still say that THEY are HE ... they are the ONE God appearing among men.

I think it is the scripture that limits him and introduces him unto mankind as three... because of the WORKS of the three among men.
1.) CREATOR
2.) SACRIFICE/risen LORD
3.) SPIRIT IN US to teach, comfort, and hold us like the hand of God unto salvation within his kingdom

 

[Ps82]

Hi Elia,
I had mentioned Genesis 18-19 KJV ... about the three male lords... the term angels has been used to describe them. That is because they were THREE super-natural male lords.

You need to continue to study those two chapters more ... because you just haven't gotten the idea that LORD, Lord, lords refer first to the NAME of God's image! Humanity has kidnapped the term lord and used it to apply to themselves ... lifting themselves up with some meager type of superiority over other men. BUT, first that NAME belonged to God!

All three of these super-natural angelic male visitors were called lords ... plural ... because there were THREE images of God appearing unto Abraham - simultaneously! Abraham certainly would have know God when he appeared because he had seen the image of God before. Exodus 6:3 KJV

BUT it was Moses, who was told the NAME of the IMAGE OF GOD (Exodus 34:5-6 KJV)... so it was Moses, who wrote Gen.18-19 and used THE NAME OF GOD'S presence correctly. Moses wrote in the NAME of the LORD... and made it clear to us that these three super-natural males were all three lordly presences!

If you study Genesis 18-19 with this truth in mind then it makes a great example of how God can work among men as multiple lords simultaneously.

Oh yes, if I have not made this clear - it is an important detail.
There is only ONE invisible God ... and he created only ONE IMAGE for his use.
Plainly ONE image to represent that there is ONE God, BUT, He is able to use IT repeatedly, even as simultaneous multiples, and formed out of any created essence he chooses - even flesh.

You wrote:

So you admit you are worshiping two lords, you just don't want to admit you are worshiping two gods.

No, I admit that there is ONE invisible God ... who uses ONE visible IMAGE! AND who is able to manifest that IMAGE repeatedly, even as identical multiple presences, of any essence he chooses.

I worship the ONE God - no matter how many of HIS ONE IMAGE he produces. They are ALL HE.

You wrote:

But one plus one really is two, and not one.

Once again - you limit an infinite eternal spiritual creator God ... for HE can manifest ONE Lordly presence plus another ONE Lordly presence and THEY are still ONLY HIM!

 

[Ps82]

Bump... Elia did you find this?

 

[Ps82]

YHVH is "one alone" because God is the only uncreated thing is the universe. All else is created "outside" of Him, by Him. But God is not "alone". He has Himself!
Undivided unity.

I agree Sheila.
Even His IMAGE is created ... and according to Colossians 1:15 ... IT was the FIRST BORN of all created beings.
(Lord Jesus) is THE IMAGE OF GOD, the firstborn of every creature.

Just like God allowed Adam to use a likeness of that image for his purposes ... so God used and uses His own created IMAGE for HIS purposes.

 

[keypurr]

Bs'd


"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

"Listen, Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is One" Holman Christian Standard Bible

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one." English Standard Version

"Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!" New American Standard Bible

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one." New International Version

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one!" New King James Version"



"And one of the scribes came up and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that he answered them well, asked him, "Which commandment is the first of all?" Jesus answered, "The first is, `Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, THE LORD IS ONE; and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.' The second is this, `You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these." And the scribe said to him, "You are right, Teacher; you have truly said that HE IS ONE, and there is no other but he; and to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the strength, and to love one's neighbor as oneself, is much more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices." And when Jesus saw that he answered wisely, he said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God."" Mark 12:28-34 Revised Standard Version

“The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one." "You are right in saying that God is one" New International Version

"Here is the most important one. Moses said, 'Israel, listen to me. The Lord is our God. The Lord is one." "You are right in saying that God is one." New International Readers Version

"Jesus answered: Listen, Israel! The Lord our God, The Lord is One." "You have correctly said that He is One," Holman Christian Standard Bible

"Jesus answered, The first is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God, the Lord is one:" "thou hast well said that he is one;" American Standard Version

"Jesus answered him, “The first of all the commandments is: ‘Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is one." New King James Version

"Jesus answered, "The most important is, 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one" "You have truly said that he is one," English Standard Version

"Jesus said, "The first in importance is, 'Listen, Israel: The Lord your God is one;" ""A wonderful answer, Teacher! So lucid and accurate—that God is one" The Message

"‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one." "“You are right in saying that God is one" New International Version



"Now an intermediary implies more than one; but GOD IS ONE." Gal 3:20 Revised Standard Version

"Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but GOD IS ONE" King James Version

"A mediator, however, implies more than one party; but GOD IS ONE." New International Version

"Now an intermediary implies more than one, but GOD IS ONE." English Standard Version

"Now a mediator is not a mediator of one; but GOD IS ONE." American Standard Version

"and the mediator is not of one, and GOD IS ONE" Youngs Literal Translation



"You believe that GOD IS ONE; you do well." James 2:19 Revised Standard Version

"thou -- thou dost believe that GOD IS ONE; thou dost well," Youngs Literal translation

"Thou believest that GOD IS ONE; thou doest well:" American Standard Version

"You believe that GOD IS ONE; you do well." Holman Christian Standard Bible.

"*Thou* believest that GOD IS ONE. Thou doest well." Darby Translation.

"It’s good that you believe that GOD IS ONE." Common English Bible

"You believe that GOD IS ONE; you do well." English Standard Version

"You believe that GOD IS ONE; you do well." Amplified Bible

"You believe that GOD IS ONE You do well;" New American Standard Bible


So the Bible teaches clearly that God is ONE.

Is it possible for the Christians here to accept that Biblical fact?




Eliyahu

Great post, i hope folks see the folly of the evil trinity doctrine.
peace

 

[steko]

Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel: YHWH our God[Elohim/Gods] is one[echad] YHWH:

Gen 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, one[echad] day.

Jdg 20:8 And all the people arose as one[echad] man,

 

[Elia]

Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel: YHWH our God[Elohim/Gods] is one[echad] YHWH:

Gen 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, one[echad] day.

Jdg 20:8 And all the people arose as one[echad] man,

Bs'd

"And they shall be one flesh" ..... In the Hebrew: "wehayu levasar echad" ..... This text is claimed by Christianity to prove that the word 'echad' can point to, or be, a 'composite unity', one being made up of more than one.

'Echad', one, can point to a composite unity. Of course. One can also point to a million: One million houses. Here one points to a million, but one is still one. We have here one million, and not a million millions. The fact that one points to something else does not change the meaning of one. One is one, and one stays one.

The claim that 'echad', one, can be a composite unity, with as proof the above verse, is simply wrong. In the above verse the flesh, made up of two people, is the composite unity, and not the 'echad', the one. Compare this to the following: One group of people. Here the group is the composite unity, and not the word one. We don't have here a composite unity of composite unities, but we have here one composite unity (the group of people). One is one and one stays one.

And last but not least; what Christianity does here, is comparing apples to steaks. The verse 'they will be one flesh' cannot be compared to 'God is one'. In the first verse the one is a number, telling us that there will be only one flesh. But in the second verse the one is not a number telling us that there is one God, here the one is an adjective, telling us that God IS one. (and not three) Here the one describes the essence of God, it doesn't give us the amount of Gods. Therefore you can not draw a conclusion from the first verse and apply it to the other.

And of course, Christianity must not forget that they not only have the battle with the Hebrew word 'echad', but also with the Greek word 'eis', also meaning one. In Mark 12:28-34 Jesus has a discussion with a scribe. The scribe asks Jesus what is the first (that is here 'most important', not first in order, because many commandments were given earlier) commandment, and Jesus answers: "Hear Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is one." Here Jesus quotes Deuteronomy 6:4. That is in the Greek: 'Kurios' (Lord) 'eis' (one) 'estin' (is). When he said this to the scribe the scribe answers him: "You are right teacher; you have truly said that he is one (eis), and there is no other then he." Upon this answers Jesus: "You are not far from the kingdom of God." So basically everybody agrees that God is one, except for the Christians. Therefore; the Christians must not only twist, deform, and corrupt the meaning of 'echad', meaning one, into three, but also the Greek word 'eis'. The question is of course: How often can you pull stunts like that, and still have some credibility left?



For Christianity it is literally a matter of life and death to obscure the fact that God is one, because when God is one, then He is not three, and then the trinity goes out the window and the Christians are exposed as the idol worshippers they are. Therefore also here many Bible translations are corrupted. This is the answer of the scribe to Jesus: “You have truly said that he is one, and there is no other then he." The scribe says: “HE IS ONE”. He does not say that there is one God, he says: “He (referring to God) IS ONE, and there is no other then he.” Take good notice that the scribe does not use the word “God”, the scribe refers to God with the word “He”. The word “God” does not appear in the answer of the scribe. But look now at some translations:

All versions of the King James: And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he: (why else “King James ONLY!)

Youngs literal translation: And the scribe said to him, `Well, Teacher, in truth thou hast spoken that there is one God, and there is none other but He; Youngs literal translation is not so literal here…

Worldwide English: And the scribe said to him, `Well, Teacher, in truth thou hast spoken that there is one God, and there is none other but He;

Gone is the fact that God is one, replaced by the fact that there is one God. Christianity can live with one God. One God who is three that is: God the Father, god the son, and god the holy ghost.

Christianity can’t live with one God who is one, like the Bible teaches. Therefore the translations are corrupted, in order to cover up the fact that God is one.

But honour to whom honour is due, there are modern day Christian translations who translate this in the right way:

New International Version: "Well said, teacher," the man replied. "You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him.” The word “God” should have been “He”, but the message is correct.

New American Standard Bible: The scribe said to Him, ""Right, Teacher; You have truly stated that he is one, and there is no one else beside him.

Revised Standard Version: And the scribe said to him, "You are right, Teacher; you have truly said that he is one, and there is no other but he;

Darby translation: And the scribe said to him, Right, teacher; thou hast spoken according to [the] truth. For he is one, and there is none other besides him;

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[Totton Linnet]

Man is a triune being