Can Christians Sin?

nikolai_42

Well-known member
Nikolai 42, you said: "If I commit sin one time, I am still guilty of that sin - but not enslaved to it. If I can't help but repeat it over and over then I am enslaved to it. That's what the "commit sin" of I John appears to be referring to."

So you agree with me that those who are born of God can sin?
I do. I think anything that disallows the possibility either requires sinless perfection or the utter abolition of the idea that there is any such thing as sin. It sounds like OZOS defines sin as either against someone else (i.e. God has forgiven sin so the standard of the Law doesn't apply to our walk in this life) or simply the result of attempting to be justified by our works. I don't entirely disagree, but I don't see God having legal amnesia. That is, His standard is the same, but our only way of meeting that standard does, in fact, sidestep the Law in stone. Thus, anything that is not of faith is sin. And so believers can sin. By failing to walk in faith. Against God.

EDIT : Case in point is Ananias and Sapphira bore false witness against God after Christ's resurrection and ascension. Did they have forgiveness?
 

OZOS

Well-known member
Thus, anything that is not of faith is sin. And so believers can sin. By failing to walk in faith. Against God.
This is what I've said all along, but Jerry is a retard, doesn't listen, doesn't comprehend what is said, and is not in Christ.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
The following words from the pen of the Apostle John were written to believers:

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us" (1 Jn.1:9-10).

Perhaps OZOS can tell us why believers are told to confess their sins for their remission since unbelievers have all their sins remitted once they believe?:

"To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins" (Acts 10;43).

OZOS has all the answersand he is never wrong so perhaps he will share his wisdom with us. Why wouldn't he?
 

OZOS

Well-known member
"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us" (1 Jn.1:9-10).

Perhaps OZOS can tell us why believers are told to confess their sins for their remission since unbelievers have all their sins remitted once they believe?
Already answered several times. Not sorry to hear that you suffer from dementia.

John never tells believers to confess their sins. You simply refuse to read the entire letter. ONLY those who have said they have no sin (vs 8) are those who need to confess they have sin, and ONLY Jesus is qualified to forgive them of all unrighteousness. John is comparing those who have been cleansed and walk in the light, with those who walk in darkness and say they have no sin.

You're an idiot, and no amount of God's word will stop you from being an idiot, because you do not have the Holy Spirit dwelling in you.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
How hVE YOU nswered the question several times since this is the first time i asked that question?

sSems like you are the one suffering from a bad case of dementia, not me.
 

OZOS

Well-known member
How hVE YOU nswered the question several times since this is the first time i asked that question?
As I have demonstrated the following words of John are addressed to those who are born of God:

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us" (1 Jn.1:7-8).

Why would John tell these people who have been born of God thta they need to confess their sins if you are right and those born of God cannot sin?
sSems like you are the one suffering from a bad case of dementia, not me.

Nope, still you. And, again, I have answered that several times. I did not say I answered your "question" several times, I said "I already answered several times" that verse.

You are far too stupid to converse with, and you obviously DO suffer from dementia, not to mention cannot grasp simple explanations of God's word.

Go to hell, you godless pervert.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
OZOS wrote;

"John never tells believers to confess their sins."

So when John used the prounouns "we"and "us"in this verse he was saying that those belonging to the group of "we" and "us". including himself, were not believers:

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 Jn.1:9-0.

Why would John identify himself as an unbeliever since he obviously was a believer?

"
 

OZOS

Well-known member
OZOS wrote;

"John never tells believers to confess their sins."

So when John used the prounouns "we"and "us"in this verse he was saying that those belonging to the group of "we" and "us". including himself, were not believers:

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 Jn.1:9-0.

Why would John identify himself as an unbeliever since he obviously was a believer?

"
Answered in full. Go back and read it again, you lazy donkey's butt.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Do you deny that you said this?: "John never tells believers to confess their sins."

Let us look at the verse again:

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 Jn.1:9).

According to your dumb ideas when John used the prounouns "we"and "us"in this verse he was saying that those belonging to the group of "we" and "us". including himself, were not believers.

You are as dumb as they come.
 

Right Divider

Body part
Do you deny that you said this?: "John never tells believers to confess their sins."

Let us look at the verse again:

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 Jn.1:9).

According to your dumb ideas when John used the prounouns "we"and "us"in this verse he was saying that those belonging to the group of "we" and "us". including himself, were not believers.

You are as dumb as they come.
You still do not understand figures of speech. The Bible uses TONS of them. It's no wonder that you're so confused.
1Jn 1:5-10 KJV This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. (6) If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: (7) But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. (8) If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. (9) If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (10) If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
Can you not see that John is speaking hypothetically and rhetorically?
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
RightDivider said: "Can you not see that John is speaking hypothetically and rhetorically?"

So are you saying that the following words of John were not addressed to believers?:

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 Jn.1:9).
 

OZOS

Well-known member
Do you deny that you said this?: "John never tells believers to confess their sins."
Nope, I said it, and I will say it again.

John NEVER tells believers to confess their sins. Not once. Not ever.
You really have serious reading comprehension skills.

John is telling believers that ANYONE who claims that they have no sin, whether it be him or they, they would be lying (vs 8) and he or they would be walking in darkness (vs 6). John is assuring his readers that ANYONE who says they have no sin, are cleansed from all sin by the blood of Jesus when he or they confess they have sin (vs 7;9). ONLY someone who has NOT been cleansed can have sin (duh).

Again, if you read all the verse leading up to 1 John 1:9, it is abundantly clear to those who have the Spirit of God dwelling in them (not you).
You worship a goat God, and claim that the blood of Jesus is insufficient to cleanse from all sin, so you continue to seek more forgiveness, like those who sacrificed bulls and goats. Believers, not you, are forgiven in Christ, once for all. It is finished.

"The Law of Noncontradiction" is a standard of logic that basically states that if something is true the opposite is false. You cannot have two opposing truths. If it is "A" it cannot be "B" at the same time. 2+2 cannot be 4 and also 10. It is either 4 or it is 10. Truth by definition is exclusive.

An individual cannot be both righteous and unrighteous. Yes, there are individuals who are righteous, and there are those who are unrighteous, but both things cannot be true about a single individual. You are EITHER righteous, OR you are unrighteous.

We / You

In Chapter 1 of John’s letter, when he references himself (and perhaps the other disciples whom Jesus chose, or those who were with him at the time he is writing his letter) he uses the words “we”, “our” and “us” repeatedly. When John refers to those to whom he is writing he uses the word “you”. As we go through this the distinction becomes clearer. However, when the 2nd chapter begins (and it may be why the translators call it “chapter 2) John begins to speak of only himself to the readers as “I”. I believe the reason for this has to do with the main reason John is writing his letter. It is to correct false doctrine that had crept in among his readers concerning Jesus and sin. In the first chapter, John wants to assure the readers by defending his apostleship and distancing himself from those who had been deceiving them. And, he uses the words we/our/us as a matter of validation that he is not alone in his declarations concerning the truth.

Some theologians have suggested that the “we” in chapter 1 is a “royal we” whereas John is expressing his authority, but as you read this it becomes obvious that is not the case. You will also see that the we/our/us is not John speaking of himself and his readers, but himself and those who also "saw, heard, and handled" the Son of God..

The apostle writes his letter to a group of Jewish believers and unbelievers who had been subject to false teaching (most likely Gnosticism) and John wants to correct that which some had come to believe.

"These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you." 1 John 2:26

"Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world." 1 John 4:1-3

There are many forms of gnosticism and their beliefs, but here John is dealing specifically with those who claimed that Jesus did not come in the flesh, for they teach that all matter is an illusion, being "evil" and thus man has no true sin nature.

John begins his letter affirming that those who knew Jesus can testify to the truth that He did indeed come in the flesh.

1 John 1:1

"That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;"

Jesus was from the beginning. In fact, when John writes Revelation, he quotes Jesus : " I am the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty" Rev 1:8

John, and those with John ("we"), had not only seen and heard Jesus, but they had touched Him with their hands. He was not an illusion, but walked with them, taught them, ate with them, and they watched Him shed His blood on the cross. And they witnessed Him declare that He is the "life".

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." John 14:6

"I am come that they might have life..." John 10:10

1 John 1:2

"For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us"

John reassures those receiving his letter that the life Jesus came to give was manifested to him and he is now showing it to them as a testimony that he, and those with John (we) have eternal life. His readers had been deceived by others, and John is not deceiving them. He defends his ministry. John wants to confirm to those he is writing that he has eternal life. He is not suggesting that they do not have eternal life, but that if they believe in Him they also have eternal life.

"If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God." 1 John 5:9-13

Those who deny that Jesus came in the flesh, or that there is no sin, do not "have the Son". They do not have the "life". The witness of God concerning His Son is made known by those who believe God, and God affirms that He sent His Son in the flesh, to die for our sins.

1 John 1:3

“That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.”

Again, John uses the word “we” here to describe those who had seen and heard the “Word of life” and It is obvious that John wants to assure his readers that fellowship between “we” and “you” is predicated on both groups having fellowship with the Father and the Son. Because of John’s testimony concerning their (we) earthly relationship with Jesus, his readers can be confident that what John is saying is born out of his fellowship with both Jesus and His Father who sent Him.

1 John 1:4

“And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.”

Many translations say “our joy” and many say “your joy”. I don’t think it matters, because John’s point is that being able to fellowship with one another brings joy to both groups. John’s readers can be relieved by the knowledge that they now have someone they can fellowship with who truly was sent by God to testify to the truth concerning Jesus. That had not been the case with those who were trying to seduce them with false doctrine about who Jesus is and what He has done concerning sin.

1 John 1:5

“This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all”

Having established with his readers that he is trustworthy regarding his fellowship with the Father and the Son, and that they can also fellowship with him, John now reveals why neither of them have fellowship with those who had been trying to deceive them. The message John received concerning Jesus is contrary to the message that his readers had heard. John proceeds to affirm to his readers that there is no darkness in God, for He is the Light.

Light / Darkness

“In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.” John 1:4-5

The life of Jesus is the Light of men. There is no darkness in Jesus, and Jesus is our life (Col 3:4)

“I am the Light of the world; he who follows Me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the Light of life.”

“…to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.” Acts 26:18

“…for you were formerly darkness, but now you are Light in the Lord; walk as children of Light” Eph 5:8

“For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son” Col 1:13

“But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief; for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness” 1 Thess 5:4-5

The very life of God dwells in those who are saved. They are in the Light, and the Light is them. They are not in darkness, cannot walk in darkness, and shall never be in darkness.

1 John 1:6

“If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:”

This is not difficult to understand. If you are not saved (in darkness), then you are not in fellowship with God, and if you say you are in fellowship, then you're lying. There is no verse in the Bible that declares that believers can walk in darkness. Not a single one. Those who have been told that have been lied to. Those who are in Christ are in the light, just as He is in the light. If John and those with John (we) were to say that they have fellowship with God, but were in darkness, they would be liars, and not to be believed. John is making known to his readers that those who have seduced them are in darkness, having denied that Jesus has come in the flesh.

1 John 1:7

“But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.”

Here is the crux of John's message, and it is clear that to be in fellowship with God that you are "in the light" as He is "in the light" and the result has been that you are cleansed of all sin.

As John explains later... "And you know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin."

You cannot be in sin and in Jesus. It is impossible. Those who teach that you can move in & out of fellowship also believe that you move in & out of light, in & out of life, and in & out of Christ! That is a doctrine of demons, and one that paralyzes believers into a fear of having any hope that God loves them and that He sustains or keeps them.

Notice that John affirms that those who are in the light have been cleansed from all sin. If someone has been cleansed from all sin, they are in fellowship with those who have also been cleansed from all sin. They are not in fellowship with those who deny that they have sin that needs to be cleansed. If John was claiming he had no sin to be cleansed, then they could not have fellowship with John. Again, John is exposing those who had seduced his readers.

1 John 1:8

“If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us”

If John were saying the same thing as those who say they have no sin that needs to be cleansed, then John would be deceived and have no truth in Him. Obviously, John is not saying that those who have been cleansed from all sin are lying. if they say they have no sin, for they have been cleansed. You cannot say you have something if you just had it removed. No, John is saying that those who say they have no sin that needs to be cleansed are lying and deceiving themselves. They are denying the One who shed His blood for our sins. EITHER you've been cleansed OR you have not. Those who have fully agreed with God their need to have their sin cleansed, are telling the truth. Those who have rejected their need to be cleansed, and the One who is just to cleanse them, have no truth in them. They have rejected the gospel.

Righteous / Unrighteous

1 John 1:9


“If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness “

To confess is to agree with God or to say the same as God would say concerning our sin. Just as the tax collector in the temple confessed he a was sinner asking for God's mercy, so do all those who know that they have sin that needs to be taken away. However, only God is faithful and just to forgive and cleanse from all unrighteousness.

1 John 1:9 reaffirms verse 7. To be justified by faith we admit that we have in fact, sinned. Therefore, John proclaims that it is indeed Jesus who is faithful and righteous to forgive our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If Jesus has cleansed you, you cannot make yourself uncleansed! You were unrighteous because you were "in Adam", "in darkness", & "in the flesh". You had no ability to make yourself righteous apart from the cross. But, having now come to Christ, you have been cleansed and are "in Christ", "in the light", "in fellowship", & "in the Spirit"! You have been made righteous by the blood of Christ! How then do you suppose after having been made righteous, that you could make yourself unrighteous? You could never make yourself unrighteous or righteous to begin with. The fact is you can only be cleansed of all sin once! You can only be cleansed of unrighteousness once!

"For without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness"

Jesus is not going to be crucified every time you think you need forgiveness. The unrighteous were made unrighteous by the offense of one man (Adam). The righteous are made righteous through faith in the obedience of One Man (Jesus).

You are EITHER righteous OR unrighteous. You cannot be both, and having been made righteous, you can never be made unrighteous. Therefore, 1 John 1:9 can only be speaking of those who have never been made righteous, not those who are the righteousness of God in Christ (2 Cor 5:21)

1 John 1:10

“If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.”

John affirms that those who claim that they never sinned are calling God a liar, and Jesus is not in them. Again, John includes himself, so that those whom he is writing know that those who are going to be their teachers must affirm that they have sinned and that the sacrifice of Jesus is the only propitiation for sin, so they will not be seduced by those who have been deceiving them.

John has fully established his credibility with those he is writing. He now turns to his apostolic authority and no longer refers to “we” but “I” and his instructions on how they should proceed. His readers now know where they stand concerning what it was they had been told by the false teachers. To those who had been seduced into believing that Jesus had not come in the flesh and that they had no sin to be cleansed, John has revealed to them that they are still in darkness, and have yet to know Jesus as their Advocate. To others who have been cleansed from all sin, John is thankful, but to those who have not been cleansed, he addresses first. They are yet to be the children of God, yet John appeals to them as a father caring for his own.

1 John 2:1-2

“My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.”

Jesus fully satisfied (propitiated), by His once for all sacrifice, their sins. To be in Christ, is to be free from sin. To be in Christ is to have received forgiveness of all their sin (Col 1:14).

Jesus is the only One qualified as their Advocate. He is the only One who is “faithful & just” to cleanse them from all unrighteousness. Having once been cleansed, they are to no longer have consciousness of sins (Heb 10:2). His sacrifice is wholly sufficient, not only for their sins, but the sins of the whole world, including those who had tried to deceive them.

I want you to look one more time at what John just said in the first sentence of chapter 2 verse 1.

“I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin.”

John is clearly suggesting that sin will cease, and as they continue to read his letter it becomes obvious that it becomes a reality for those who are “born of God”. To “not sin”, does not come any other way than by having first come to their Advocate who cleanses them from all sin, gives them His life, and makes them the righteousness of God. They are now new creations, born of God, and His Seed (Jesus) abides in them.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
OZOS says: "John is assuring his readers that ANYONE who says they have no sin, are cleansed from all sin by the blood of Jesus when he or they confess they have sin (vs 7;9). ONLY someone who has NOT been cleansed can have sin (duh).

The Scriptures say that the sins of unbelievers are remitted when they believe, not when they confess their sins:

"o him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins"
(Acts 10:43).

According to your silly ideas one does not have to believe in the Lord Jesus in order to have their sins remmited but they only to confess their sins.

How can anyone possibly be so stupid?
 

Right Divider

Body part
RightDivider said: "Can you not see that John is speaking hypothetically and rhetorically?"

So are you saying that the following words of John were not addressed to believers?:

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 Jn.1:9).
Read the ENTIRE passage you sad loser.
1Jn 1:5-10 KJV This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. (6) If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: (7) But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. (8) If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. (9) If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (10) If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
Does the WE (that LIE) in verse 6 refer to "believers"? Etc. etc. etc.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
If John thought that believers cannot sin why would he write the following words to believers?:

"My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous" (1 Jn.2:10.
 

OZOS

Well-known member
OZOS says: "John is assuring his readers that ANYONE who says they have no sin, are cleansed from all sin by the blood of Jesus when he or they confess they have sin (vs 7;9). ONLY someone who has NOT been cleansed can have sin (duh).

The Scriptures say that the sins of unbelievers are remitted when they believe, not when they confess their sins:

"o him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins" (Acts 10:43).

According to your silly ideas one does not have to believe in the Lord Jesus in order to have their sins remmited but they only to confess their sins.

How can anyone possibly be so stupid?
You can't read, you retard. Believing in Him includes who He is and what He has done.

In order to believe the gospel, you MUST agree (confess) that Jesus died for your sins. The word "confess" means to agree with God (say the same) that you have sins for which Jesus died. Thus, Jesus is the ONLY One who is faithful and just to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Seriously, dude, you are the most ignorant person on this site about anything concerning God's word.
 
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OZOS

Well-known member
If John thought that believers cannot sin why would he write the following words to believers?:

"My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous" (1 Jn.2:10.
Read 1 John 1:6-9 again, you moron. Who are those who must be cleansed from all unrighteousness? THOSE WHO HAVE SIN. THOSE WHO WALK IN DARKNESS.

You are making even more of a fool of yourself than anyone can believe is possible.

You understand nothing you read.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Right Divider wrote: "Read the ENTIRE passage you sad loser."

There is nothing in the entire passage which even hints that John's words are not to be taken literally.

Do you not think that any sin a believer commits defiles him? Or do you sgree with SOZOS that a believer cannot sin?Do you not think that a believer should judge himself in regard to his behavior? Paul wrote the following to believers:

"For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world."
(1 Cor.11:31-32).
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
OZOS why do you refuse to answer my question?:

If John thought that believers cannot sin why would he write the following words to believers?:

"My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous" (1 Jn.2:1).

Do you deny that these words were written to believers?
 
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