OZOS
Well-known member
Question.
If you have a quarter in your hand, and you say "I don't have a quarter in my hand", are you lying? Yes or no?
Can Christians Sin?
- Thread starter Jerry Shugart
- Start date
If you have a quarter in your hand, and you say "I don't have a quarter in my hand", are you lying? Yes or no?
Unless I stole the quarter, it's not sinful to possess it (why would I lie about having a quarter unless I stole it?)
Are followers of Christ capable of sinning? You say no, because Christ forgave them on the cross for past, current and future sins so you really don't acknowledge a follower of Christ being able to sin. Yes?
I say that every man ever born, except Jesus Christ, has and will continue to sin. As the follower of Christ matures in his walk with Christ, wanting to be more like Him, through the power of the Holy Spirit he will sin less, but the temptation will always be there and in a moment of weakness he very well might give into that temptation. Has Jesus forgiven him for that sin? Only Jesus knows what's in your heart.
Here's a question related to this topic: What's the purpose of being a follower of Christ?
OZOS
Well-known member
I'm not interested in your commentary, as if you could possibly understand the reason I asked. I wanted a simple yes or no answer.
I asked the question for the following reason, so that you might come to understand why John said what he did in verses 1-10 of 1 John.
If a group of people are being deceived by someone, who has something, and claims they do not have it, then it could be important to expose that person as a liar. This is what John is doing in these verses.
John tells his readers exactly that in 1 John 2:26...
"These things I have written to you concerning those who try to deceive you."
John begins his letter to these believers by affirming his apostleship, as someone who was with Jesus. He saw Him, he touched Him, and he heard Him. John is a reliable witness to who Jesus is, and what He has done. John wants to assure those, whom he is writing to, that he can be trusted, and he is unfolding his credibility so that both he (and those with John - "we") can have fellowship with them. He assures them that he is in fellowship with the Father. He declares to them that God is light and in Him there is no darkness. He does this because darkness and light have no fellowship with one another. Those who are in Christ cannot walk in darkness (it's impossible), so if anyone says they have fellowship with God and walks in darkness, they are a liar. In contrast, those who walk in the light have been cleansed of all sin by the blood of Jesus (vs 7). Again, John is warning them about those who are trying to deceive them. The ones who are in darkness, are also the ones saying that they have no sin. Logically, we know that he is not speaking here about those who are in the light and have been cleansed of all sin, because they would not be lying if they say they have no sin, obviously, since they have been cleansed of all sin. You can't say you have something, when it has already been taken away (duh). Thus the reason for my question. The ones who are lying are those who have something (sin) and are saying they do not. So, John affirms what he said in verse 7, that those who admit (confess) that they have sin, are cleansed and forgiven of all sin by the only One who is qualified to take their sin away. Those who say they have not sinned, and have no need to be cleansed, are calling Jesus a liar for claiming to be qualified to take away their sin. He alone is advocate.
Religious people (and most people are) have taken something so simple and recreated a another form of goat sacrifices for sin, by claiming that you must keep "short accounts" with God, when God says He no longer takes sin into account. These same people are filled with pride, thinking that they must do something about sin, because the cross was insufficient. These people think they are believers, but they are hell-bound and without hope.
Nor am I yours, since I have no idea what liberal theology school you went to.
Yes, as shown in this Benson commentary of 1 John 1:8-10, if someone claims that they have no sin, they are deceiving and a liar.
If we say — Before Christ’s blood has cleansed us; that we have no sin — To be cleansed from; or if, even after we have experienced the cleansing virtue of his blood, and are acquitted through the merit of it from all past guilt, and saved from all evil tempers, words, and works; if, even after this, after we are both justified, regenerated, and sanctified, we say we have no sin, but are perfectly sinless, and that our spirit and conduct can bear the scrutiny of God’s holiness and justice, as exhibited in his spiritual and holy law; we deceive ourselves — And that in a very capital point; and the truth is not in us
Here's more:
The book of 1 John was written to Christians. The apostle says, “If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness” (1 John 1:8–9). It is clear from this passage that even those who have been born again and redeemed by the blood of Jesus will still sin. Through thought, attitude, or action, we will “grieve” (Ephesians 4:30) and “quench” (1 Thessalonians 5:19) the Holy Spirit at times. But this passage also reassures us that God offers continual, ongoing grace whenever we agree with Him about our sin and ask for His cleansing.
Do Christians sin? | GotQuestions.org
Do Christians sin? Are Christians sinless? What does the Bible say about Christians and sin?
www.gotquestions.org
BTW, what's the purpose of being a follower of Christ?
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OZOS
Well-known member
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
bla bla bla
can you quote even one reputable Bible commentator who agrees with you interpretation of 1 John 3;9?
Your cult leader doesn't qualify
can you quote even one reputable Bible commentator who agrees with you interpretation of 1 John 3;9?
Your cult leader doesn't qualify
OZOS
Well-known member
What does that even mean?
"But from those who seemed to be something—whatever they were, it makes no difference to me; God shows personal favoritism to no man—for those who seemed to be something added nothing to me."
All I've done is quote the verse.
All you've done is claimed it's a lie.
I know you hate Jesus, but He is the only One who is qualified.
aCultureWarrior wrote:
BTW, what's the purpose of being a follower of Christ?
".. is the transformation into Christ likeness."
I see that you know your limitations when it comes to debating certain people. You remind me a lot of the woman from years back that had the same m.o., it was a one syllable name. Any relation to her?
BTW, what's the purpose of being a follower of Christ?
When I typed that question into a search engine, the only answer I received was
".. is the transformation into Christ likeness."
I see that you know your limitations when it comes to debating certain people. You remind me a lot of the woman from years back that had the same m.o., it was a one syllable name. Any relation to her?
OZOS
Well-known member
It's only possible to debate the things of God with those who understand the things of God and know Him. You don't know Him from Adam.
And, in debate, you must also stay focused on the topic, and not wander off into fantasy land.
In all ways, you're a failure.
Well at least you didn't call me a homosexual child molester this time.
Now that we've established via the words of the Apostle John that Christians i.e. followers of Christ do sin, and if they deny it they're lying, there's nothing else to talk about here.
OZOS
Well-known member
John never said that ABOUT Christians. You really can't read, can you? He said it TO Christians ABOUT those who walk in darkness.
Here is what John said about Christians (born of God)...
"We know that whoever is born of God does not sin" 1 John 5:18
"Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God." 1 John 3:9
"Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him. 1 John 3:6
"He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning." 1 John 3:8
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Yet this post says differently:
Can Christians Sin? | Page 2 | TheologyOnline
Why would the Apostle John clearly say what he did in 1 John 1:8 and then turn around a short while later and say the opposite?
Here's what the Apostle John really said in 1 John 3:9 as seen in this commentary:
"though there are such, as sinning wilfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth,
1 John 3:9 - Meaning and Commentary on Bible Verse (biblestudytools.com)
Willfully
ADVERB
- with the intention of causing harm; deliberately.
- with a stubborn and determined intention to do as one wants, regardless of the consequences
While a true follower of Christ on occasion stumbles, he doesn't "willfully" do so (i.e. 'practice sin"), and after stumbling he repents (shows remorse and prays to God to give him the strength to be more like Jesus and avoid further temptations in the future).
OZOS
Well-known member
Yes, I read your blasphemous post that calls the blood of Jesus inferior to that of a goat.
John did not say the opposite. That's your problem, you don't understand 1 John 1:8, so you reject 1 John 3:6-9 and 1 John 5:18
1 John 1:8 is simple to understand, for those who know how to read. The ONLY people who can say they have no sin, and be lying about it, are those who have not been cleansed of all sin. Obviously, if you have been cleansed of all sin, then you no longer have sin. If you have sin, and say you have no sin, then you are a liar. Stop ripping the verse out of context and read it in light of the whole letter. Those who are claiming to have no sin, that needs to be cleansed are those who are walking in darkness. Believers are NOT in darkness and cannot be in darkness. Those are not my words, but the word of God.
All sin is willful, you turd.
And there is nothing in 1 John that makes a delineation between "willful" and unwilful (whatever that is) sin."We know that whoever is born of God does not sin" 1 John 5:18
"Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God." 1 John 3:9
"Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him. 1 John 3:6
"He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning." 1 John 3:8
And that verse, from Hebrews has nothing to do with what John said in his letter. The writer of Hebrews is dealing with those who continue to reject Christ, the sin of unbelief. Jesus did not die for our unbelief, He died for our sins relating to lawlessness. Unbelief requires REPENTENCE.
READ THE BIBLE
"For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect. .For then would they not have ceased to be offered? For the worshipers, once purified, would have had no more consciousness of sins. But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins." Heb 10:1-4
Those who come to God, in spirit and in truth (the worshipers), should no longer have any consciousness of sins, because they know they have been cleansed from them ONCE for ALL. To be sin conscious is to claim that the sacrifice of Jesus was insufficient to have cleansed you from all unrighteousness and to make you perfect (Heb 10:14).
Sacrifices under the Law
• Can never make you perfect
• Can never stop you from being sin conscious
• Reminded of your sins year after year
• Can never take away your sin
The Sacrifice of Jesus
• Takes away your sin, once for all
• No more reminder of your sins
• No more sin consciousness
• Makes you perfect forever
There is no more sacrifice for sin.
If we continue to claim that we have sin that must be forgiven (even though God says He no longer takes your sin into account - 2 Cor 5:19), then there is going to have to be an offer for that sin, which would be an insult to the sacrifice of Jesus as being sufficient to take away your sin. There is no other offer for sin. Not guilt, not indulgences, not re-dedication, and not confession. We confess (agree with God) our need of a Savior for our sins ONCE and for ALL. We are complete in Him (Col 2:10), and in Him there is no sin (1 John 3:5). We can no longer make any offering for sin, because we have accepted His offer alone.
Better to come out of the shadow (Law), and into the reality (Christ), and put an end to your sin consciousness. Trying to live your life believing that Jesus not only died for ALL your sin, took ALL your sin away, having cleansed you from all unrighteousness, and then believing you have to make a sacrifice for sin, is simply double-mindedness.
"But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
And here is where the Bible speaks directly to YOU...
"For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth (the gospel), there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?" Heb 10:26-29
This is EXCATLY what you do.
To claim that the sin issue was not settled on the cross, ONCE and for ALL, is to reject the gospel. It is to claim that the blood of Jesus was insufficient and that each individual must do something about sin. YOU have insulted the grace of God by claiming that it is "cheap".
You are NOT a believer in Christ, but you are very religious.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
The following words are addressed to believers and those born of God:
'"If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:" (1 Jn.1:6).
Here John raises the possibility that a person born of God can walk in darkness. If John knew that a paerson who is born of God cannot sin then he wouldn't raise the possiblilty that they can walk in darkness.
In fact, Paul tells those who are born of God the following and he raises the possibility that they can sin:
"The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light. Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying. But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof" (Ro.13:12-14).
Why would Paul tell these people who are born of God not to riot or get drunk if it is impossible for them to do these sinful acts. why would paul tell them not to make provisions for the flesh so as to fulfill threir lusts if it was impossible for them to do those things/
'"If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:" (1 Jn.1:6).
Here John raises the possibility that a person born of God can walk in darkness. If John knew that a paerson who is born of God cannot sin then he wouldn't raise the possiblilty that they can walk in darkness.
In fact, Paul tells those who are born of God the following and he raises the possibility that they can sin:
"The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light. Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying. But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof" (Ro.13:12-14).
Why would Paul tell these people who are born of God not to riot or get drunk if it is impossible for them to do these sinful acts. why would paul tell them not to make provisions for the flesh so as to fulfill threir lusts if it was impossible for them to do those things/
i.e. you know your limitations when it comes to debate and decided not to attempt to refute the truth.
Again, no mention of repentance as a requirement for salvation on your part. If you keep practicing your cheap grace theology, God is going to prepare for you a very special millstone (Matthew 18:6).
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OZOS
Well-known member
And you're a liar. In that very post I affirmed, "The writer of Hebrews is dealing with those who continue to reject Christ, the sin of unbelief. Jesus did not die for our unbelief, He died for our sins relating to lawlessness. Unbelief requires REPENTENCE.
LOL...all people who haven't made Jesus Christ their Lord and Savior are "unbelievers". (Sigh, he tries so hard.)
In closing: Those who have made Jesus Christ their Lord and Savior continue to sin like all of mankind has since Adam and Eve, but not purposely. That was the message that the Apostle John was attempting to get across.
OZOS
Well-known member
No, they do not, that is a lie, and you are a liar. The verse is TO believers ABOUT those who walk in darkness. Those who John mentions in 1 John 2:26
According to God's word, believers cannot walk in darkness.
“I am the Light of the world; he who follows Me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the Light of life.” - The Lord Jesus Christ
Jerry Shugart claims that Jesus is a "liar".
“…to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.” Acts 26:18
“…for you were formerly darkness, but now you are Light in the Lord; walk as children of Light” Eph 5:8
“For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son” Col 1:13
“But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief; for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness” 1 Thess 5:4-5
The very life of God dwells in those who are saved. They are in the Light, and the Light is them. They are not in darkness, cannot walk in darkness, and shall never be in darkness.
Jerry Shugart is in darkness, because he is not in Christ, and is a child of Satan, whom he serves.
The very verse you quoted emphatically states that those who walk in darkness are not in fellowship with God.
They are not "born of God". They are not believers. They are in darkness and not in fellowship. My goodness you're a stupid man.
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OZOS
Well-known member
That's what I said, you moron. You really are an idiot. ALL unbelievers MUST repent from not believing in Christ, TO believing in Christ. Jesus died for our sins, you brain dead pervert, not for our unbelief.
You made that up. The Bible rejects your personal religious cult. John says the exact opposite.