Can Anyone Explain 'Why gay marriage?'

[Lon]

Yep....
Clearly. But I know enough to debate your amazing ideas.

...After the flesh.

When she wakes up, I'm going to show that to my wife.
She will crease up with laughter.

Its the pride and posturing that you do on TOL. I engaged it along about page 19.
Where else would audacity come from? Father Ray postures the same way. He knows about as much as you in reading his bible (he is negligent). I have no idea what is going on in the UK and New Zealand (Kiwi-), but it seems the rules are becoming lax.
So, in some ways, I see your humor, but in other ways, I see it from the state of liberal churches where the pastors don't know a lot, and it saddens me.

I have enjoyed Glassjester's posts on this thread.
And although we differ so much he would be welcome in our home, to our hospitailty and any help he might need.

To me? Condescending, and you in the superior position, even by your gesture and analogy, but I do recognize some of your esteem by it, yet.

Yep....... Sometimes, when faced with certain folks, my humour gets the better of me.
But God loves laughter, not the kind or venomous stuff that you spit out.

Just because one uses a :chuckle: icon doesn't make it less venomous. In fact, it becomes spiteful at that point.

Look over my supposed 'venom.' Is assessing another's prowess, venomous? Wouldn't it rather be a service if it helps you understand
where you are wrong? What you are doing wrong? Thinking incorrectly? Were all your teachers nice? I had a few very strict teachers. In a lot of ways, I may not have liked them, but later, looking back, they were the ones that forced me toward better skills.

Let's look at your 'venom' (condescension mostly):
How vehenemous am I?
Let's compare:

You didn't write in the name of love on this thread, so don't try it now.

Bahauallah put it quite well....
But I wouldn't expect you to be much impressed by Bahaullah.

Then you lambast another for bringing up Buddha :doh:

What you don't understand, cannot seem to grasp....

You try to think...although you...go so horribly wrong even there.

You still think...poor thing....slowly leaving the extremists behind.

But that's just your 'man-made' opinion.
And so Christianity is moving towards the light, whilst you will be left hiding in the darkness.

Excellent!
You got something right.
And Jesus would not object to this at all.
....or can you quote from the words of Jesus to the contrary? I think not.

Yeah, I simply told you, you aren't ▲this▲ bright. It is all assert, no scriptures to speak of. You are that man.

-Lon

 

[glassjester]

Like I said before.... you don't understand just how much we support equality, here in the UK and on the continent. And you don't think that intimate blood-line union is dangerous?

And if this danger could be removed, would you be for the legalization of incestuous marriage?

Are you having a laugh?

I am not laughing at you, no.

Don't worrty about it. Your profile mentioned that you are a teacher.

Oh, I see. I haven't updated anything on there for quite some time (I've been on TOL for nearly 11 years).
Really, I probably will not update it, ever. It seems more prudent to not provide much personal information.

I believe that you're set fast in some kind of religious cement, and that you will never be able to review your position.

I do review my position. Quite often. I did a lot of "reviewing" before deciding on the Church.
I was not confirmed in the Catholic Church until the age of 22.

Well, of course you would not see that it does. And that's interesting, because a huge % of folks all around here would understand it instintaly and immediately.

Ok.

Absolutely! How abouty you?
And since I could tell you a very great about how equality workls in a community I don't need youi to tell me that I don't count upon this reason to exclude brothers from ssm as highly important. Social, political, working and living equality is very dear to me. I used to write it into courses, teach it in courses, and have lived it for as long as I can remember.


Oh, good graciousness! You've crashed and burned on the legal, religious, logical and philosophical angles, so now you want to retreat yet further into the corners of 'IF'......
If I was female I'd be a grandmother..........

That's right. It is useful to consider "what if?".
So... if the risk of pregnancy was absent, then would you wish to legalize incestuous marriage?

But equality is a very young child where you are, methinks, it's only 50 years since inter-racial marriage was made lawful throughout the US.

Well before I was born, then.

 

[glassjester]

i've always read it as pulling in the same direction, toward a common goal (that of raising a Godly, righteous, moral family)

That seems right.

Christians should not be yoked with unbelievers - pulling toward whatever the unbeliever's goals might be. The believer should be yoked to Christ.

Matthew 11:29-30 - Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.

Perhaps the unbelieving spouse should be yoked to Christ, as well (along with the believer). If married, it must be on the condition that the unbeliever works toward the same goal as the believer. It may eventually bring about the conversion of the unbeliever. (1 Corinthians 7:14)

 

[eider]

Those in Christ are on equal footing similarly to my kids being on equal footing with me BUT the faithful are trusted with more.
Matthew 6:33

Misquote

We don't know Christ after the flesh. You married a woman after the flesh by your own admission. I hope that you'll start a thread about it and why it is wrong. see 2Corinthians 5:15-17 2 Corinthians 5:2,5,8,10,11,15-17 Jude 1:4 talks also about the problem of the flesh creeping into the Body of Christ and a need to guard against such, even guarding against such infilteration on TOL.

You think you write with the wisdom of Solomon, Lon, but it's jibberish, absolute jibberish, and you're scared of true Yeshuite knowledge coming to TOL because your complex spun-out drivvle doesn't stand a chance against the simple truth.

:nono: Peter, Paul, Jude? They all walked with the Savior and all talk about it. Again, I think you caught in the flesh but CANNOT know Christ that way. 2 Corinthians 5:5-17 is conditional upon one either being in the flesh or in the Spirit. Paul insists we cannot know Christ after the flesh. Trying to see everything in scripture from that perspective is what makes liberal churches that Jude 1:4 warns about.

Cut away the bibble-babble and you have got nothing in the way of true Christian values, Lon. I'm tired of you and your arrogant big head.

I do too. What I find stranger, is that you pit scripture against scripture, Jesus against Jesus. It is schizophrenic in my estimation.
The Lord Jesus Christ isn't divided.

No, Jesus is not divided.....

 

[Lon]

That seems right.

Christians should not be yoked with unbelievers - pulling toward whatever the unbeliever's goals might be. The believer should be yoked to Christ.

It seems to me, one even 'desiring' an unbelieving spouse is caught in flesh concerns, and may be a clear sign of not being a new creation. Co 6:14 Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers; for what fellowship does righteousness have with lawlessness? And what partnership does light have with darkness?
2Co 6:15 And what agreement does Christ have with Belial [something of no Spiritual/eternal worth)? Or what part does a believer have with an unbeliever?
2Co 6:16 And what agreement does a temple of God have with idols? For you are the temple of the living God, as God has said, "I will dwell in them and walk among them; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people."
2Co 6:17 Therefore come out from among them and be separated, says the Lord, and do not touch the unclean thing. And I will receive you
2Co 6:18 and I will be a Father to you, and you shall be My sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty.

Matthew 11:29-30 - Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.

Other than a forced/arranged marriage, I'd never recommend this. Catholics do not normally think in terms of Christianity being a 'new creation' new-made toward Spiritual things, but rather think of "Christian" as all who are members of the Church. The idea of covering under the Church, becomes a trust in the Church for salvation, thus a lot of Catholic doctrine, filtered through that lens fits with the expectation. Some Protestant churches carry that theme forward, but most fundamental evangelical churches take this 2 Corinithians 6 passage as a clear delineator between those in-Christ, and those in-name only (false). It seems many regenerate in the Catholic Church see that distinction.

Though the Lord Jesus Christ's burden is light, it yet is light for those with a nature to take Him on, newly made. In Him -Lon

Perhaps the unbelieving spouse should be yoked to Christ, as well (along with the believer). If married, it must be on the condition that the unbeliever works toward the same goal as the believer. It may eventually bring about the conversion of the unbeliever. (1 Corinthians 7:14)

Even at that, it is much the exception than the rule. It is frowned upon, even in the Catholic Church from what I remember. If already in that circumstance when one comes to Christ? I think it should be the more understood context.

 

[glassjester]

Cut away the bibble-babble and you have got nothing in the way of true Christian values, Lon. I'm tired of you and your arrogant big head.

Which true Christian values?

 

[glassjester]

It seems to me, one even 'desiring' an unbelieving spouse is caught in flesh concerns, and may be a clear sign of not being a new creation.

Yes, this may be so.

Even at that, it is much the exception than the rule. It is frowned upon, even in the Catholic Church from what I remember.

Yes, both true.

If already in that circumstance when one comes to Christ? I think it should be the more understood context.

More so, yes. Though not exclusively so.

 

[Lon]

Misquote

:nono: It is telling you to seek first His kingdom, His righteousness.

You think you write with the wisdom of Solomon, Lon

1 Corinthians 1:18 :think: Who/which are you?

but it's jibberish, absolute jibberish

1 Corinthians 2:14 :think:

and you're scared of true Yeshuite knowledge

Matthew 5:19 :think: Romans 3:31 Matthew 5:17-19 Romans 1:22-32 :think:

coming to TOL because your complex spun-out drivvle doesn't stand a chance against the simple truth.

Matthew 24:35 Acts 17:32 "...many mocked him, but some asked to hear him again..."

Cut away the bible-babble and you have got nothing in the way of true Christian values, Lon.

Isaiah 55:11

I'm tired of you and your arrogant big head.

1 Corinthians 11:1 Philippians 4:9
Do you despise the Apostle Paul as much as you despise me?
2 Corinthians 11:21I am ashamed to say that we are too weak to behave in such a way. If they can brag, so can I, but it is a foolish thing to do.

No, Jesus is not divided.....

1 Corinthians 11:1 Philippians 4:9

 

[eider]

Yes, this may be so.

Yes, both true.

More so, yes. Though not exclusively so.

Now...... there it is.....
The last couple of posts show clearly that SSM is so far out of reach for some Christians.
Look at Christian marriage with Bahais, or Hindus, etc, or any other belief systems, and the Fundamentalists kick out at all of those.

Ergo....There is no way that extreme Christians could accept Female SSM, let alone Male SSM.

And so it's right for the moderate Christians, the true ones imo, to pick up the baton of love and understanding and just run with it. The philosophers will mostly support it, and the secular World will tend to support it, and it will move ahead into the same historical file as inter-racial-marriage, Gay rights, Gender-rights, Black-votes, Female votes, and recognition for so many other minorities that need voice.

If you believe that your way is Heaven bound, stick to it, but the Calvinists and Methodists, and Baptists and Lutherans and all will tell you that you're wrong, and each other is wrong, and you should all waste time in arguing with each other, so that moderate Christians can join with the multi-ethnic, multi-cultural World and influence it with moderation.

:idunno:

 

[glassjester]

If you believe that your way is Heaven bound, stick to it, but the Calvinists and Methodists, and Baptists and Lutherans and all will tell you that you're wrong, and each other is wrong, and you should all waste time in arguing with each other, so that moderate Christians can join with the multi-ethnic, multi-cultural World and influence it with moderation.

The world didn't need any influence to do what it was doing anyway. The influence between so-called "moderate" Christians and the world is flowing in the opposite direction. The world is influencing them.

 

[eider]

:nono: It is telling you to seek first His kingdom, His righteousness.

You clearly don't know what was meant by that. You think you do, you preached it for years, but you got it wrong.

Start at a beginning, of Jesus and his mission. Find the truth by starting out all over again.
Where would you like to start?

You know it all.
You have high intelligence.
So give me simple answers to simple questions.
Let me pluck a question at randomm for your all-knowing answer. I won't pick a question that isn't easily and positively answerable.

mmmm......

Why is there no evidence of a township upon Nazareth for early 1st century? One or two Early 1st cent foundations and a few oil lamps. What's that all about?
Let's see if you can handle simple stuff like this, down to earth simple truth.

Well?

 

[Lon]

:nono: It is telling you to seek first His kingdom, His righteousness.


1 Corinthians 1:18 :think: Who/which are you?


1 Corinthians 2:14 :think:


Matthew 5:19 :think: Romans 3:31 Matthew 5:17-19 Romans 1:22-32 :think:


Matthew 24:35 Acts 17:32 "...many mocked him, but some asked to hear him again..."


Isaiah 55:11
1 Corinthians 11:1 Philippians 4:9
Do you despise the Apostle Paul as much as you despise me?
2 Corinthians 11:21I am ashamed to say that we are too weak to behave in such a way. If they can brag, so can I, but it is a foolish thing to do.


1 Corinthians 11:1 Philippians 4:9

Now...... there it is.....
The last couple of posts show clearly that SSM is so far out of reach for some Christians.

Yes, most of us, in fact. The problem here, is that in order for the church to follow the world, they will have to shred Romans 1:18-32 Jude, and Peter out of their Bibles. There is no scripture about interracial marriage. Song of Solomon seems about an interracial marriage, in fact. You'll find no mention of homosexual relationships the same way. For the Christian, it is better not to marry.

Look at Christian marriage with Bahais, or Hindus, etc, or any other belief systems, and the Fundamentalists kick out at all of those.

:nono: We don't kick them out. We pray a lot for them....

Ergo....There is no way that extreme Christians could accept Female SSM, let alone Male SSM.

It is with us in culture, but it cannot be a part of the church. "Acceptance" probably needs clarification after that.

And so it's right for the moderate Christians, the true ones imo, to pick up the baton of love and understanding and just run with it.

Love without truth, is not 'loving' or 'true.' John Lennon was wrong. "Imagine" doesn't work. You are right back to the hippy movement and culture. The "free-love" movement messed up my childhood. It is irresponsible adults behaving as children. God has healed quite a bit of that eras impact on my life, but it is/was NOT loving.

The philosophers will mostly support it, and the secular World will tend to support it, and it will move ahead into the same historical file as inter-racial-marriage, Gay rights, Gender-rights, Black-votes, Female votes, and recognition for so many other minorities that need voice.

:nono: Greece and Rome fell. Any culture that ceases to support family relationships, and this is the extreme after-effect, will fall. Only a culture that supports and edifies family can survive.

If you believe that your way is Heaven bound, stick to it, but the Calvinists and Methodists, and Baptists and Lutherans and all will tell you that you're wrong, and each other is wrong, and you should all waste time in arguing with each other, so that moderate Christians can join with the multi-ethnic, multi-cultural World and influence it with moderation.

:idunno:

Not true (though Methodists have agreed with you for a long time now, it is why I left them). In this thread, there are Baptists, Presbyterians, and Catholics, all agreeing with one another against you. Oh, we have our spats on TOL, but most of these I count as brothers, despite the disagreement. In my church, all of these are part of the same independent fellowships. We couldn't go to each other's churches for the difference (friction in practice, for instance one handles rattlesnakes, I could never go there). That said, we count one another as part of the Body of Christ, despite those differences. If my denomination can do it, others can too. We aren't as smattered and scattered as many think we are. Having so many denominations is not a sign of weakness imho. It is a sign of diversity, rather. -Lon

 

[eider]

The world didn't need any influence to do what it was doing anyway. The influence between so-called "moderate" Christians and the world is flowing in the opposite direction. The world is influencing them.

But the World is fed up with the outrages carried through by Christianity before.
Clearly Jesus would have had NONE of the behaviour of Christianity in the past.

The enormous wealth of the CofE and Catholic priesthood used to take my breath away when I visited senior dignitaries' homes, and diocesan offices. I believe I know exactly what Jesus would have said about them all. Hypoocrisy clothed in posh robes and clever words. Imagine what the immerser would have said? !

Has anything changed? I believe in moderate Christianity in adequate means. I believe that living the life is the way and not the chanting of dogmatic mantras.
:idunno:

 

[Lon]

You clearly don't know what was meant by that. You think you do, you preached it for years, but you got it wrong.

Start at a beginning, of Jesus and his mission. Find the truth by starting out all over again.
Where would you like to start?

You know it all.
You have high intelligence.
So give me simple answers to simple questions.
Let me pluck a question at randomm for your all-knowing answer. I won't pick a question that isn't easily and positively answerable.

mmmm......

Well, let's see....

Why is there no evidence of a township upon Nazareth for early 1st century? One or two Early 1st cent foundations and a few oil lamps. What's that all about?
Let's see if you can handle simple stuff like this, down to earth simple truth.

Well?

First of all, this is theology history and archeology, not so much a scriptural concern, isn't it?
Second, perhaps start a different thread? This one is about homosexuality. Does your question have something to do with this topic? -Lon

 

[eider]

There is no scripture about interracial marriage.

Great, so inter-racial marriage was never banned by the church. And before that Deut. 23:8-9)

:nono: We don't kick them out. We pray a lot for them....

I diod not say 'kick them out', I said 'kick out at them'.

Love without truth, is not 'loving' or 'true.'

I weas talking about 'Love in truth, or love without lies'.

John Lennon was wrong. "Imagine" doesn't work. You are right back to the hippy movement and culture. The "free-love" movement messed up my childhood. It is irresponsible adults behaving as children. God has healed quite a bit of that eras impact on my life, but it is/was NOT loving.

Youth was breaking away from the straight-jacket of a hypocritical and rigid caste system. It went wrong quite often but it had its moments.

:nono: Greece and Rome fell.

Greece had already fallen. Rome would not fall for another 300 years. The Mongols fell. The Persian Empire fell. The British Empire fell. The Mayans fell, Spain fell. Portugal fell. Clogs to clogs in a few centuries at most. Nothing to do with religion.

Not true (though Methodists have agreed with you for a long time now, it is why I left them). In this thread, there are Baptists, Presbyterians, and Catholics, all agreeing with one another against you. Oh, we have our spats on TOL, but most of these I count as brothers, despite the disagreement. In my church, all of these are part of the same independent fellowships. We couldn't go to each other's churches for the difference (friction in practice, for instance one handles rattlesnakes, I could never go there). That said, we count one another as part of the Body of Christ, despite those differences. If my denomination can do it, others can too. We aren't as smattered and scattered as many think we are. Having so many denominations is not a sign of weakness imho. It is a sign of diversity, rather. -Lon

No..... the bottom line is 'Will they all be in heaven together'? Nah!

 

[Lon]

Great, so inter-racial marriage was never banned by the church. And before that Deut. 23:8-9)

It was rather against 'interfaith' marriage, just like the church today. An Indian and Japanese who both love the Lord, may marry.

I diod not say 'kick them out', I said 'kick out at them'.

It is awkward, but no, I don't kick out at them. I don't feel comfortable around them, though. There is some kicking out at them even on TOL.
My answer, politically, to this thread, is to petition government to distinguish civil-legal unions from 'marriage.' One is a legal concern, the other spiritual. Imo, that would alleviate the problem between the government and the church. It wouldn't remove the problem altogether, but I believe Obama and the Courts were inept. They ruled on something without realizing what they were able and not able to do. I think a petition to differentiate the state's interest and religious interest by distinctive unions-language, would take care of that in a court.

I weas talking about 'Love in truth, or love without lies'.

And we strongly disagree what the truth is. As I said, I'd have to literally rip Jude, Peter, and Paul from my bible, as well as the OT. I wouldn't have much of a book left after that. IOW, it is you that has written Paul off as Apostle imho, not me. Truth has to stand or love doesn't actually exist.

Youth was breaking away from the straight-jacket of a hypocritical and rigid caste system. It went wrong quite often but it had its moments.

It at LEAST opened the way for the Jesus-Movement and Christian revival.

Greece had already fallen. Rome would not fall for another 300 years. The Mongols fell. The Persian Empire fell. The British Empire fell. The Mayans fell, Spain fell. Portugal fell. Clogs to clogs in a few centuries at most. Nothing to do with religion.

As I said, it had more to do with a neglect of fostering families. No country can survive that doesn't support and even further spur healthy families. It is how God intended because it is the only way people can exist.

No..... the bottom line is 'Will they all be in heaven together'? Nah!

Artificial. Rather, most of us believe in the universal church, rather than any one denomination having nothing but regenerate believers.
Imho, you still see 'church' as a physical organization and Christianity (Christians) as people who go to those churches. Being "like Christ" is more than an ideal, it is a union (of which marriage is an example/illustration) of Christ and a believer. Revelation 3:20 2 Corinthians 5:17

 

[glassjester]

Why is there no evidence of a township upon Nazareth for early 1st century? One or two Early 1st cent foundations and a few oil lamps. What's that all about?
Let's see if you can handle simple stuff like this, down to earth simple truth.

Well?

https://www.livescience.com/49997-jesus-house-possibly-found-nazareth.html

Do you think those homes that have been excavated existed in complete isolation?

 

[Angel4Truth]

i've always read it as pulling in the same direction, toward a common goal (that of raising a Godly, righteous, moral family)

:thumb:
Matthew 11:29-30

"Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS. "For My yoke is easy and My burden is light."

2 Corinthians 6:14-16

Do not be bound together with unbelievers; for what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness? Or what harmony has Christ with Belial, or what has a believer in common with an unbeliever? Or what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; just as God said, "I WILL DWELL IN THEM AND WALK AMONG THEM; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.

Ecclesiastes 4:9-12

9
Two are better than one,
because they have a good return for their labor:
10
If either of them falls down,
one can help the other up.
But pity anyone who falls
and has no one to help them up.
11
Also, if two lie down together, they will keep warm.
But how can one keep warm alone?
12
Though one may be overpowered,
two can defend themselves.
A cord of three strands is not quickly broken.

 

[dodge]

Now...... there it is.....
The last couple of posts show clearly that SSM is so far out of reach for some Christians.
Look at Christian marriage with Bahais, or Hindus, etc, or any other belief systems, and the Fundamentalists kick out at all of those.

Ergo....There is no way that extreme Christians could accept Female SSM, let alone Male SSM.

And so it's right for the moderate Christians, the true ones imo, to pick up the baton of love and understanding and just run with it. The philosophers will mostly support it, and the secular World will tend to support it, and it will move ahead into the same historical file as inter-racial-marriage, Gay rights, Gender-rights, Black-votes, Female votes, and recognition for so many other minorities that need voice.

If you believe that your way is Heaven bound, stick to it, but the Calvinists and Methodists, and Baptists and Lutherans and all will tell you that you're wrong, and each other is wrong, and you should all waste time in arguing with each other, so that moderate Christians can join with the multi-ethnic, multi-cultural World and influence it with moderation.

:idunno:

What you lack understanding in is that the battle is against light ( truth ) and darkness( lies and deception), and it kooks like you are an advocate for darkness.

Eph 6:12
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

 

[kiwimacahau]

What you lack understanding in is that the battle is against light ( truth ) and darkness( lies and deception), and it kooks like you are an advocate for darkness.

Eph 6:12
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

In your opinion.

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