Calvinism

[musterion]

Philosophical grounds are the only grounds upon which to make any determination.

Incorrect, brother, though I know what you're getting at.

The revealed Word of God is ultimately the only ground on which to make any such determination, and that determination has been made for us by the fact that God cannot lie. That verse cannot be true unless the fundamental presupposition of Calvinistic salvation is false (taking the fragile, wet cardboard facade of TULIP down with it). And vice versa: if Calvinism is true, then God does lie and the Bible is worthless. There's no middle ground here, so please don't give any. No appeal to philosophy is required so please don't let the Augustinian rope you into accepting slick language by means of which he seeks to warp and steer this discussion.

 

[intojoy]

Yes you keep coming back to election which for Reformed Christians is perfectly understandable...I also am reformed, I also believe in election.

Election to what?

Justification (in2j)


Does the bible teach that the election is to salvation? isn't it election to the blessing of Abraham? isn't election to be a blessing to the world?



None of this actually says anything about salvation, although we understand that in order to these things we must be saved.

It does not preclude others from being saved.

Where does Paul draw his doctrine from Abraham? does it show then that Lot was unsaved? Paul draws upon Jacob and Esau, we know that Jacob gained the election...is Esau therefore damned? what about Laban?

Laban and Esau are 2 unbelievers (intoj)

There are a great many scriptures which you overlook, like the one which says that Christ went into the underworld to preach the gospel to those who had perished before the flood. (Bs)

Romans 2 which show Gentiles who having not the law do what the law requires thus showing that the law is written on their hearts their conscience also bearing witness and their thoughts the meanwhile excusing or accusing them

Enough revealed creation knowledge to condemn but not to save (in2j)

In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Christ Jesus, according to Paul's gospel.

Hold fast there good sir, do you have the right to assume that those who receive the disciple or minister to them receive the reward in that they become disciples themselves? I think that is taking the scripture beyond what it says to make it fit into your doctrine.

What about those who John saw casting out devils and would have prevented seeing they did not follow the Lord?

Even Pharisees cast out demons (intoj)

Look at that more closely, what if they had been clothing the naked or feeding the poor instead of casting out devil's?

Jesus is speaking of Jews alone during the trib (intoj)

You BELIEVE God is holy, He must judge rightly, He must avenge sin....can He overlook righteous deeds?

What righteous deed are you referring to?

 

[patrick jane]

What righteous deed are you referring to?

you don't have to quote the whole post for a reply

 

[intojoy]

you don't have to quote the whole post for a reply

Read the "(intoj)"

 

[Totton Linnet]

What righteous deed are you referring to?

Hello...well you know that we disagree on many vital points, come close to agreement on others and at times completely agree.

The CHURCH goes through the tribulation...Israel will be saved from it viz..Jeremiah 30 and Daniel.12.1.

True religion is [says James] to visit the fatherless and the widow in their affliction and to keep ourselves unspotted by the world.

To care for the poor is righteousness...it does not equate to salvation, I don't say that. But it has weight before the Lord.

I am not speaking about the "caring" of politicians, nor especially am I speaking about "career caring"

But everyone knows what kindness is just as everyone knows what wickedness is.

Look here

Believing as I do in a BILLIONfold wider mercy as I do frees me up when it comes to speaking about eternal punishment, not that I am a hellfire preacher but I can say without equivocation that the wicked will be turned into hell...why should they not?

But only God will judge it, I don't have to define it...you know, wicked people know they are wicked...let them be warned.

The doctrines concerning these things is so skewed at present that people refrain from it altogether...it needs sorting out, it is the soft underbelly of the church.

And I BELIEVE in the wider mercy, a BILLIONfold wider mercy, I doesn't BELIEVE that billions and billions of human souls will be lost. I believe the Catholics got it wrong and the reformation just took over from them.

You can't expect more from Luther, Calvin and co. what they did was magnificent, more than enough for one man's life work....but there is plenty left which they didn't look at thoroughly. the doctrines of eternal destinies is one such.

Believing in the Millennial reign should alter people's doctrine concerning the last judgement, for it comes AFTER the saints have reigned with Christ for a thousand years..how how HOW then can the righteous sheep be the church?

But their inheritance is not heaven but the new earth Jerusalem the capital.

 

[intojoy]

Your Israelology is all wrong

 

[Totton Linnet]

MY Israelology is aMAZingly good, who else will tell you that Israel is saved from the trib while the church goes through it?


...who else will tell you that Israel is about to shock the world by becoming a superpower

 

[intojoy]

MY Israelology is aMAZingly good, who else will tell you that Israel is saved from the trib while the church goes through it?


...who else will tell you that Israel is about to shock the world by becoming a superpower

Foolishness

 

[intojoy]

“For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith Jehovah, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you hope in your latter end.”
**Jeremiah‬ *29:11‬ *ASV‬‬



This verse has absolutely nothing to do with the church.

Read in its entire context, and in this book as a whole, God is saying that not only would the Jews be gathered back after 70 years in Babylon but that in the latter days... He will bring them back from the four corners of the earth to where God scattered them in A.D. 70.

He wants Israel to know that He has a plan for Israel's good after the tribulation.

This verse has not been fulfilled as of 1948 and will be fulfilled after the Jews are driven out from Israel when they will flee from the anti christ.


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[Robert Pate]

Is it heretical in saying that only a specific sect of people will be saved?

Of course it is. Especially when there are scriptures like John 3:16 that says "God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son" or 1 John 2:2 and 1 John 4:14, plus dozens of other scriptures.

 

[musterion]

Doesn't it depend on whether the sect members believe the true Gospel? If they do they're saved, but not because they are in that particular sect. If they don't, they won't, and again regardless of the sect.

 

[intojoy]

Of course it is. Especially when there are scriptures like John 3:16 that says "God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son" or 1 John 2:2 and 1 John 4:14, plus dozens of other scriptures.

According to who Pate?
Where in the bible does it say that all will be saved? Nowhere. Then why aren't those who won't be saved not saved? Didn't they hear the same message? Yes. So if they didn't get salvation by their refusal to accept the gospel then by your logic they are saved by virtue of their lack of works.


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