That scripture is only for those that have come to Christ as repentant sinners to be saved by him.
But if you have been declared by God to be saved from the foundation of the world, you don't need Ephesians 1:7.
Calvinism: You Must Already be Saved to Get Saved?
- Thread starter Robert Pate
- Start date
That scripture is only for those that have come to Christ as repentant sinners to be saved by him.
But if you have been declared by God to be saved from the foundation of the world, you don't need Ephesians 1:7.
fishrovmen
Active member
Mark this date on your calendars folks...Robert has actually changed his mind! Good job Robert!
I haven't changed my mind about anything in over 40 years.
Your problem is that you have embraced a religion and doctrine that does not make sense.
fishrovmen
Active member
There is nothing wrong with learning, it shows that you are possibly teachable. That's a good thing, pride is not.
I know a false doctrine when I see one. Calvinism is as phony as it gets.
Ask Mr. Religion
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You have made salvation out to be some golden ring on a merry-go-round that must be grasped for using their own abilities. All are crying out for help, none want to die, but only some who are smarter, wiser, more spiritual, or in some way better than others are able to of their own free will grasp that golden ring and win the prize. Sigh.
"Hypothetical" atonement is no atonement. It presents God as toying with sinners, providing an atonement which does not suffice to save one soul, let alone an entire world of souls. No one denies the sacrifice of Our Lord derived infinite value from the dignity of His person; it must, therefore, have been intrinsically sufficient to expiate the sins of the whole human race had it been so intended; but, in the designation of the Father, and in the intention of Christ himself, it was limited to a definite number, who shall ultimately obtain salvation (John 6:37; John 6:39; John 10:29; John 17:11-12; John 17:9;John 17:22; John 18:9).
By dying on the cross, Our Lord has actually saved His people. He came not to make salvation hypothetical, possible, or merely available but to actually “save his people from their sins” (Matt. 1:21). Jesus came not to make men redeemable but to redeem them. He died not potentially but actually, and so He made not a provisional atonement but an actual one. As the Lord of glory prepared to yield up His spirit to the care of the Father, conscious that He had accomplished the work He came to do, He declared: “It is finished” (John 19:30). Redemption had been accomplished.
Our High Priest had actually made purification for sins, and, His work completed, He sat down (Heb. 1:3). The Good Shepherd had actually taken away the sins of His sheep (1 John 3:5) by bearing them in His own body (1 Pet. 2:24). He had actually extinguished the full exercise of the Father’s wrath (Rom. 3:25), having actually become a curse for us (Gal. 3:13) and thus exhaustively paying the full penalty for our sins. In so doing, Our Lord actually purchased the redemption of His people by the ransom price of His own blood (Acts 20:28; Rev. 5:9). Each of these passages is a statement of efficacious accomplishment. To artificially insert the concept of provision or potentiality into any of those texts is to force one’s theology on the plain meaning of Scripture.
In whose place did Christ stand as a substitutionary sacrifice when He bore the full fury of his Father’s righteous wrath against sin? The answer is, only those who will never bear that wrath themselves, namely, those given to Him only (John 6:37; John 6:39; John 10:29; John 17:11-12; John 17:9;John 17:22; John 18:9).
Our Lord has given His life as a ransom for many (Matt. 20:28; Mark 10:45; Isa. 53:12; Matt. 26:28), not all. He is the Good Shepherd, who lays down His life for His sheep (John 10:11-15), not for the goats who are not His (John 10:26). He is the lover of the brethren who lays down His life for His friends (John 15:13). He is the great Redeemer, who with His own blood purchased the church of God (Acts 20:28). He is the bridegroom of the church (Rev. 19:7; John 3:29), whom He loved and for whom He gave Himself up (Eph. 5:25). He was delivered over for the elect (Rom. 8: 32-33), for whom He continues to intercede (Rom. 8:34; John 17:9). And Our Lord is the sanctifier of “a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works” (Titus 2:14).
Our Lord was sent by the authority of the Father and in the power of the Holy Spirit to save no more and no fewer people than the Father chose and the Spirit regenerates (Eph. 1:3–14). The Father has elected some, not all; the Spirit regenerates some, not all.
To suggest that Jesus Christ has atoned for all, not some, is to put the persons of the Trinity entirely at odds with one another; it is to be forced to say that the will of the Son is not the will of the Father and the Spirit. This not only threatens the consubstantiality of the persons of the Trinity, but it flatly contradicts Christ’s own explicit statements that He had undertaken His saving mission precisely to do the will of his Father. As the Father has given to the Son a particular people out of the world (John 6:37; John 6:39; John 10:29; John 17:11-12; John 17:9;John 17:22; John 18:9), it is for these—His sheep, His own, the church—that Jesus Christ lays down His life. Unity in the Trinity demands a particular atonement.
AMR
Redemption Accomplished and Applied
Then, Robert, you are just redefining atonement from its meaning of something actual to something hypothetical. Our Lord's declaration that it was finished is really misleading then. It should have been written, "It is finished on my part, but the rest is up to you."
You have made salvation out to be some golden ring on a merry-go-round that must be grasped for using their own abilities. All are crying out for help, none want to die, but only some who are smarter, wiser, more spiritual, or in some way better than others are able to of their own free will grasp that golden ring and win the prize. Sigh.
"Hypothetical" atonement is no atonement. It presents God as toying with sinners, providing an atonement which does not suffice to save one soul, let alone an entire world of souls. No one denies the sacrifice of Our Lord derived infinite value from the dignity of His person; it must, therefore, have been intrinsically sufficient to expiate the sins of the whole human race had it been so intended; but, in the designation of the Father, and in the intention of Christ himself, it was limited to a definite number, who shall ultimately obtain salvation (John 6:37; John 6:39; John 10:29; John 17:11-12; John 17:9;John 17:22; John 18:9).
By dying on the cross, Our Lord has actually saved His people. He came not to make salvation hypothetical, possible, or merely available but to actually “save his people from their sins” (Matt. 1:21). Jesus came not to make men redeemable but to redeem them. He died not potentially but actually, and so He made not a provisional atonement but an actual one. As the Lord of glory prepared to yield up His spirit to the care of the Father, conscious that He had accomplished the work He came to do, He declared: “It is finished” (John 19:30). Redemption had been accomplished.
Our High Priest had actually made purification for sins, and, His work completed, He sat down (Heb. 1:3). The Good Shepherd had actually taken away the sins of His sheep (1 John 3:5) by bearing them in His own body (1 Pet. 2:24). He had actually extinguished the full exercise of the Father’s wrath (Rom. 3:25), having actually become a curse for us (Gal. 3:13) and thus exhaustively paying the full penalty for our sins. In so doing, Our Lord actually purchased the redemption of His people by the ransom price of His own blood (Acts 20:28; Rev. 5:9). Each of these passages is a statement of efficacious accomplishment. To artificially insert the concept of provision or potentiality into any of those texts is to force one’s theology on the plain meaning of Scripture.
In whose place did Christ stand as a substitutionary sacrifice when He bore the full fury of his Father’s righteous wrath against sin? The answer is, only those who will never bear that wrath themselves, namely, those given to Him only (John 6:37; John 6:39; John 10:29; John 17:11-12; John 17:9;John 17:22; John 18:9).
Our Lord has given His life as a ransom for many (Matt. 20:28; Mark 10:45; Isa. 53:12; Matt. 26:28), not all. He is the Good Shepherd, who lays down His life for His sheep (John 10:11-15), not for the goats who are not His (John 10:26). He is the lover of the brethren who lays down His life for His friends (John 15:13). He is the great Redeemer, who with His own blood purchased the church of God (Acts 20:28). He is the bridegroom of the church (Rev. 19:7; John 3:29), whom He loved and for whom He gave Himself up (Eph. 5:25). He was delivered over for the elect (Rom. 8: 32-33), for whom He continues to intercede (Rom. 8:34; John 17:9). And Our Lord is the sanctifier of “a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works” (Titus 2:14).
Our Lord was sent by the authority of the Father and in the power of the Holy Spirit to save no more and no fewer people than the Father chose and the Spirit regenerates (Eph. 1:3–14). The Father has elected some, not all; the Spirit regenerates some, not all.
To suggest that Jesus Christ has atoned for all, not some, is to put the persons of the Trinity entirely at odds with one another; it is to be forced to say that the will of the Son is not the will of the Father and the Spirit. This not only threatens the consubstantiality of the persons of the Trinity, but it flatly contradicts Christ’s own explicit statements that He had undertaken His saving mission precisely to do the will of his Father. As the Father has given to the Son a particular people out of the world (John 6:37; John 6:39; John 10:29; John 17:11-12; John 17:9;John 17:22; John 18:9), it is for these—His sheep, His own, the church—that Jesus Christ lays down His life. Unity in the Trinity demands a particular atonement.
AMR
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fishrovmen
Active member
If Calvinism actually taught what you say it teaches, I would say the same thing.
Arthur Brain
Well-known member
Essentially it's a lottery as to who gets "saved" under either yours or the Calvinist's theology Robert. If you believe in an eternal torment of people who don't "choose" to believe in this lifetime then that makes no sense as anyone who was aware of it wouldn't 'choose' that and if it's only the 'Elect' that are given the capacity to "see" it then everyone else can't notice the 'fire' regardless.
Both are just as sickening as each other in essence.
Both are just as sickening as each other in essence.
Ask Mr. Religion
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Fortunately it does not. Robert and so many others are just parroting what they have read elsewhere.
AMR
I'm so tired of Calvinist denying what their own doctrine clearly teaches!
This, among other things, is what Calvinism teaches, straight from the horse's mouth...
Calvinism is not biblical and as such it is not Christian theism. Accept it at your own eternal peril.
Resting in Him,
Clete
This, among other things, is what Calvinism teaches, straight from the horse's mouth...
“The devil, and the whole train of the ungodly, are in all directions, held in by the hand of God as with a bridle, so that they can neither conceive any mischief, nor plan what they have conceived, nor how muchsoever they may have planned, move a single finger to perpetrate, unless in so far as he permits, nay unless in so far as he commands, that they are not only bound by his fetters but are even forced to do him service” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 11)
“thieves and murderers, and other evildoers, are instruments of divine providence, being employed by the Lord himself to execute judgments which he has resolved to inflict.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 5)
”He testifies that He creates light and darkness, forms good and evil (Isaiah 45:7); that no evil happens which He hath not done (Amos 3:6).* Let them tell me whether God exercises His judgments willingly or unwillingly.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 18, Paragraph 3)
“God is moved to mercy for no other reason but that he wills to be merciful.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 22, Paragraph 8)
“… predestination to glory is the cause of predestination to grace, rather than the converse.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 22, Paragraph 9)
“Therefore, those whom God passes over, he condemns; and this he does for no other reason than that he wills to exclude them from the inheritance which he predestines for his own children.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christia/n Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 1)
“We cannot assign any reason for his bestowing mercy on his people, but just as it so pleases him, neither can we have any reason for his reprobating others but his will.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 22, Paragraph 11)
“But since he foresees future events only by reason of the fact that he decreed that they take place, they vainly raise a quarrel over foreknowledge, when it is clear that all things take place rather by his determination and bidding.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 6)
“We hold that God is the disposer and ruler of all things, –that from the remotest eternity, according to his own wisdom, He decreed what he was to do, and now by his power executes what he decreed. Hence we maintain, that by His providence, not heaven and earth and inanimate creatures only, but also the counsels and wills of men are so governed as to move exactly in the course which he has destined.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 16, Paragraph 8)
"All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion Book 5, Chapter 21, paragraph 5)
"I admit that in this miserable condition wherein men are now bound, all of Adam's children have fallen by God's will...
...Nor ought it to seem absurd when I say, that God not only foresaw the fall of the first man, and in him the ruin of his posterity; but also at his own pleasure arranged it. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23)
“thieves and murderers, and other evildoers, are instruments of divine providence, being employed by the Lord himself to execute judgments which he has resolved to inflict.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 5)
”He testifies that He creates light and darkness, forms good and evil (Isaiah 45:7); that no evil happens which He hath not done (Amos 3:6).* Let them tell me whether God exercises His judgments willingly or unwillingly.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 18, Paragraph 3)
“God is moved to mercy for no other reason but that he wills to be merciful.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 22, Paragraph 8)
“… predestination to glory is the cause of predestination to grace, rather than the converse.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 22, Paragraph 9)
“Therefore, those whom God passes over, he condemns; and this he does for no other reason than that he wills to exclude them from the inheritance which he predestines for his own children.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christia/n Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 1)
“We cannot assign any reason for his bestowing mercy on his people, but just as it so pleases him, neither can we have any reason for his reprobating others but his will.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 22, Paragraph 11)
“But since he foresees future events only by reason of the fact that he decreed that they take place, they vainly raise a quarrel over foreknowledge, when it is clear that all things take place rather by his determination and bidding.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 6)
“We hold that God is the disposer and ruler of all things, –that from the remotest eternity, according to his own wisdom, He decreed what he was to do, and now by his power executes what he decreed. Hence we maintain, that by His providence, not heaven and earth and inanimate creatures only, but also the counsels and wills of men are so governed as to move exactly in the course which he has destined.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 16, Paragraph 8)
"All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion Book 5, Chapter 21, paragraph 5)
"I admit that in this miserable condition wherein men are now bound, all of Adam's children have fallen by God's will...
...Nor ought it to seem absurd when I say, that God not only foresaw the fall of the first man, and in him the ruin of his posterity; but also at his own pleasure arranged it. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23)
Calvinism is not biblical and as such it is not Christian theism. Accept it at your own eternal peril.
Resting in Him,
Clete
fishrovmen
Active member
So Robert,
If the atonement did not provide forgiveness of sins for the unbeliever, and you believe that the unbelievers sins will be imputed back to their account, then the atonement was nothing more than a stay of execution?
If the atonement did not provide forgiveness of sins for the unbeliever, and you believe that the unbelievers sins will be imputed back to their account, then the atonement was nothing more than a stay of execution?
Are you denying that God predestinates people to hell before they are born?
This is one of the sickest doctrines ever conceived in the perverted mind of a man.
God provides, but he is not going to force you to receive.
Nanja
Well-known member
God has provided nothing for the devil's children except His Righteous Judgment.
Mat. 13:38-42
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mat. 25:41
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Shasta
Well-known member
When you post all those quotations from the Westminster Confession why is that not parroting?
Nang
TOL Subscriber
You must browse through the Institutes looking for random portions to cut and paste that do not contain bible quotes, in the attempt to make this point. Calvin's Institutes is replete with scripture references! Just as exampled in the bolded paragraph above.
If you think any statement presented by Calvin is unbiblical, the onus is upon you to prove how it is unbiblical, for after all, Calvin was a Christian theologian far more educated, proven, and esteemed than yourself.
flintstoned
New member
So in your belief system, why do YOU think that God created those people that he knows will reject him? Before they are ever born, he foreknows that the majority of the world will go to hell. So, what is the point? And how is this belief any better than Calvinism?
God only saves whom He knows will persevere, because a perfect God does not make mistakes.
Therefore,
predestination.
'Free Willians' believe in a God who messes up, so that they can be afforded the luxury of fully rejecting and destructing God's plans.
How much sense does that make
How much sense does it make that a person can hop in and out of salvation like it's something that can be given and taken at whim?
Therefore,
predestination.
'Free Willians' believe in a God who messes up, so that they can be afforded the luxury of fully rejecting and destructing God's plans.
How much sense does that make
How much sense does it make that a person can hop in and out of salvation like it's something that can be given and taken at whim?
Shasta
Well-known member
I have often heard your camp speak as if the difference between the saved and lost as something almost ontological. Some from conception are simply the chosen. Others are already rejected and lost and, in fact there never was any hope for them for Christ did not die for them. Unlike you AMR says that the intrinsic worth of Christ's sacrifice could atone for the sins of all had God the Father chosen to accept it that way.
When I read the parables I see that that many people are initially brought into the kingdom. At the last times comes the judgement when some are separated out - bad fish from good fish, wheat from tares, sheep from goats - and rejected but why does the word say they are rejected?
Let's look at the parable of the Sheep and the Goats. You and others have made the difference between these groups to be ontological, as if they are different species by virtue of their essence but I think the idea of different species is a part of the metaphor. Nothing prevents a person who is lost from being saved. Nothing prevents even a wolf from becoming a "sheep." Of course, my opinion is not what matters. What does Jesus say the difference between sheep and goat is. We need not speculate. It is in the text.
When the righteous ask why they are being admitted to the joy of the Lord does Jesus say it was because they are elected to enter? He does say that the reward had been prepared in advance but that was not WHY they were allowed to enter it. Jesus explained that they were allowed to enter their inheritance for this reason:
35 ...I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’...40...the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’
To the goats He says,
‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ 45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” (Matthew 25:31-46)
Notice that when He mentions their punishment He does not say it was prepared for them but for "the devil and his angels." Had these people trusted in him they too could have been sheep in the end. What made them into goats was how they lived. Sheep have an abiding love/faith relationship in Christ that makes them the kind of people that give Christ's love. Anyone who does not abide in His love until the end will be found to be goats who will be "cast away as a branch" and put in the fire where there is endless "weeping"
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Parroting Straw Men Constructions
Parroting Straw Men Constructions
As I have often stated, as below or as elsewhere:
You are not unintelligent, so I assume you asked the question to make some point rather than just stating it up front, no matter what my answer may happen to be. So please, do get on with it.
AMR
Parroting Straw Men Constructions
The historic Reformed confessions, WCF, Helvetic, Belgic, Heidelberg, are affirmed by Reformed confessional church groups as accurate summaries of the teachings of Scripture on the matters discussed therein. When I quote from them I am using the constitutional basis of the church I have covenanted with, been instructed by, and affirm. In other words, I have actually Scripturally studied the matters of doctrine summarized in these confesssions, along with the saints of the past five hundred years. I am not mindlessly restating some words I have heard or read elsewhere...parroting.
As I have often stated, as below or as elsewhere:
Persons constructing straw men of the Calvinist's views by claiming we operate from the same presuppositions they do and therefore believe about our beliefs what they believe about our beliefs leaves no hope for honest discussion.
If persons would avail themselves of a scripturally accurate summary of our beliefs, e.g., WCF, with a nice exposition of the same here, much clarity would ensue. Unfortunately some prefer to just parrot others in discussion forums and not dig deeper.
If persons would avail themselves of a scripturally accurate summary of our beliefs, e.g., WCF, with a nice exposition of the same here, much clarity would ensue. Unfortunately some prefer to just parrot others in discussion forums and not dig deeper.
You are not unintelligent, so I assume you asked the question to make some point rather than just stating it up front, no matter what my answer may happen to be. So please, do get on with it.
AMR
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