Calvinism: You Must Already be Saved to Get Saved?

beloved57

beloved57

Well-known member
Shasta said:
When the Bible refers to humans being "children" or "progeny" of a spiritual being it is talking about their character which includes the way they think and the pattern of their behavior.

44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out his desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, refusing to uphold the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, because he is a liar and the father of lies (John 8:44)

Evidently being someone's spiritual children means that their image, behavior and attitudes have been reproduced in them. Jesus' enemies were "of their father the Devil" because they like he were enemies of the truth and, like the Devil himself they wanted to murder Jesus. The logical connection between them and Satan's nature was that the demons had been at work in their lives. This process is supported in the NT (e.g., Ephesians 2:2)

Instead of accepting this straight forward explanation Calvin refers to a "sovereign" work of God whereby the heavenly Potter shapes them to become liars and murderers. The problem is, God is Holy, Righteous, Just, and loving. He would have no part in making anyone like Satan whose ways He abhors and who is in utter opposition to Him.

Now we come to what is a really staggering proposition - that making people who reflect the Satanic nature is God's perfect will. I thought God's perfect will was that men repent of their sin and believe upon Jesus. I thought His perfect will was that we love Him with all our hearts and our neighbors as ourselves. These beliefs did not originate in the Bible. They were imported into Christian thinking from a system utterly foreign to Christianity.

Your interpretation does not work because it starts with the wrong premise. Paul was not talking about the salvation of individuals in Romans 9, he was telling the story of chosen people, specifically Israel and then the Gentile believers who were grafted in

Dan. 4:35
And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

This does not mean God is "free" to behave contrary to His good nature. That is not a matter of His power but His nature. God does not and would not fabricate evil. He might create something capable of being evil but all that is needed for that to happen is to give the creature a will.
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Evasion and Rabbit trail!

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beloved57

beloved57

Well-known member
God's Truth said:
Nanja, you are not careful enough when it comes to saying what the scriptures say. Try to be more careful.
You have just confused some things here, for according to the scriptures in the KJV the word ‘regenerate’ refers to a saved person. God does NOT save unbelievers. As for you saying a carnal person and a natural man---that is about people who only live to please their flesh. Not everyone only lives to please their flesh. Look around you. You must be able to reason.



There is no scripture anywhere in the Bible that says no one can obey and there is no scripture that says no one can believe. You also make a very false statement when you say it would not please God to obey, believe, and call on Him. You are going directly against His Word.

It is beyond absurd and to say what you did that God tells us to do something and doing it would cause Him grief or a nonchalant reaction. .



How many times do I have to give you the scriptures that prove we are not just flesh and that not everyone only just wants to please their flesh?

Here are the scriptures again that prove we have a spirit too.

Hebrews 12:9, Zechariah 12:1, and Malachi 2:15.



Again, no scripture says what you claim.
Show me the scripture that says God saves unbelievers and the scripture that says we are born without the ability to believe.
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All men by nature are in the flesh, and they which are in the flesh can't please God or obey God Rom 8:7-8

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serpentdove

serpentdove

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Robert Pate said:
God did not hate Esau.
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"...God made a difference between them at the very beginning (see Gen. 25:22–23), but it was about fifteen hundred years before He stated as He does here [Mal 1:3] that He loved Jacob." McGee, J. V. (1991). Thru the Bible commentary: The Prophets (Malachi) (electronic ed., Vol. 33, p. 17). Nashville: Thomas Nelson.
 
God's Truth

God's Truth

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Calvinists say that God decides what we all think and decides what we all do.

They also say all our hearts are only ever evil.

The written word of God says that God searches our hearts.

If all were completely evil, then what is God searching hearts for?

John 4:23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.

Jeremiah 17:10 "I the LORD search the heart and examine the mind, to reward each person according to their conduct, according to what their deeds deserve."

Did you read that? What is the Lord searching our heart and mind to see what we are thinking and feeling if He MADE us think and feel what we feel? IN ADDITION, what is He searching for at all if only evil is there?


Acts 1:24
Then they prayed, "Lord, you know everyone's heart. Show us which of these two you have chosen

Revelation 2:23
I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds.

1 Kings 8:39
then hear from heaven, your dwelling place. Forgive and act; deal with everyone according to all they do, since you know their hearts (for you alone know every human heart),

1 Chronicles 28:9
"And you, my son Solomon, acknowledge the God of your father, and serve him with wholehearted devotion and with a willing mind,for the LORD searches s every heart and understands every desire and every thought. If you seek him, he will be found by you; but if you forsake him, he will reject you forever.

Psalm 139:23
Search me, God, and know my heart; test me and know my anxious thoughts.

Proverbs 17:3
The crucible for silver and the furnace for gold, but the LORD tests the heart.

The Lord TESTS the heart. What is He testing our hearts for if He made us think and feel whatever we do?!

Jeremiah 11:20
But you, LORD Almighty, who judge righteously and test the heart and mind, let me see your vengeance on them, for to you I have committed my cause.
 
Shasta

Shasta

Well-known member
beloved57 said:
Evasion and Rabbit trail!

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What do you think of this exegesis of John 3:16

[
16. For God so loved the world.

Christ opens up the first cause, and, as it were, the source of our salvation, and he does so, that no doubt may remain; for our minds cannot find calm repose, until we arrive at the unmerited love of God. As the whole matter of our salvation must not be sought any where else than in Christ, so we must see whence Christ came to us, and why he was offered to be our Savior. Both points are distinctly stated to us: namely, that faith in Christ brings life to all, and that Christ brought life, because the Heavenly Father loves the human race, and wishes that they should not perish
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Notice how the commentator uses "world" interchangeably with "the human race" NOT the world of the elect
 
God's Truth

God's Truth

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beloved57 said:
What jesus you talking about? Is it the Jesus that by His obedience alone made many righteous Rom 5:19?
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We have to obey Jesus' commands. You said he commands and makes us do things. The Bible says that God disciplines those He loves. So what is God doing disciplining us if He is the one who made us do the wrong?
 
God's Truth

God's Truth

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Robert Pate said:
God did not hate Esau.
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The Bible says plainly that God hates Esau.

Robert Pate said:
God hated what Esau stood for.
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It matters what we do, think, and feel.

Robert Pate said:
God does not hate anyone, if he did he would not be righteous.
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You just judged God.

Robert Pate said:
God loved Jacob, because Jacob loved God. It is only natural to love those that love you. The scripture does NOT say that God condemned Esau to hell.
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Who throws people out of the kingdom into darkness?

Who will throw people in the lake of fire?

Robert Pate said:
The God of the Bible is not the tyrant God of Calvinism that sends billions to hell before they are born. It is not humanly possible to have saving faith in the God of Calvinism. What Calvinist have faith in is a doctrine, not God or Christ. A doctrine that was conceived in the twisted mind of a heretic.
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Your God is just as bad or worse for your God, according to you, puts people in hell for obeying him.
 
Shasta

Shasta

Well-known member
God's Truth said:
Read what I said and learn how to make a righteous judgment. You merely give that one liner and answer with the same scripture no matter what.
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That is exactly what he does. He is either unwilling or unable to comprehend the ideas of other people
 
Shasta

Shasta

Well-known member
beloved57 said:
The World in Jn 3:16 is the Elect, period!
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This commentary says you are wrong

16. For God so loved the world. Christ opens up the first cause, and, as it were, the source of our salvation, and he does so, that no doubt may remain; for our minds cannot find calm repose, until we arrive at the unmerited love of God. As the whole matter of our salvation must not be sought any where else than in Christ, so we must see whence Christ came to us, and why he was offered to be our Savior. Both points are distinctly stated to us: namely, that faith in Christ brings life to all, and that Christ brought life, because the Heavenly Father loves the human race, and wishes that they should not perish

 
beloved57

beloved57

Well-known member
Shasta said:
This commentary says you are wrong

16. For God so loved the world. Christ opens up the first cause, and, as it were, the source of our salvation, and he does so, that no doubt may remain; for our minds cannot find calm repose, until we arrive at the unmerited love of God. As the whole matter of our salvation must not be sought any where else than in Christ, so we must see whence Christ came to us, and why he was offered to be our Savior. Both points are distinctly stated to us: namely, that faith in Christ brings life to all, and that Christ brought life, because the Heavenly Father loves the human race, and wishes that they should not perish
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I can care less about that commentary. The World in Jn 3:16 is the Elect!

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