Calvinism: A declaration that God is unjust and that his Son is a failure

[Brother Vinny]

Charles94 conveniently ignores 1John 2:2 which is the clearest verse of all that blows your limited atonement out of the water. Why is it that moderate or 4-point Calvinists reject limited atonement in such great numbers? Calvinism will be overthrown from within. All the Clavinists on this forum are of the minority position not the majority.

"For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few." -- Matthew 7:14 ESV (emphasis added)

 

[God's Truth]

This is why I wrote post #3. Yes, every single person is commanded to repent and turn to the Lord. Yes, every single person who repents and turns to the Lord will be saved. But you are assuming (based on a Western man-made philosophy going back to Aristotle) that the command necessarily means an implied ability to obey.

Yours is the man made teaching from Calvin who made it the most prominently known. Luther before him had a form of it. They both probably got some of it from their Catholic college teachings after studying Augustine and others.

Your beliefs are nowhere in the scriptures. God does not save unbelievers. Give one scripture that says God saves unbelievers and I would believe.

You would actually need to prove that, not simply assume it.

That is pretty presumptuous of you to say that.

That people at enmity with God described in Romans 8 is the story of the whole Bible. It's definitely the story of the exiles of Jeremiah and Ezekiel's time. God invites the exiles to come to Him. They want “their” land back – they want His gifts - but they want nothing to do with God. He says they won't get the land back without turning to Him in faith. So what does God come up with to deal with this hard hearted people?

Ezek36:25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and CAUSE you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them....31 THEN you will remember your evil ways and your deeds that were not good; and you will loathe yourselves in your own sight, for your iniquities and your abominations.

The timeline in this passage suggests that God gives a new heart and new spirit, which consequently results in repentance. There is a logical order to it. Water is a typical picture for us of the Spirit in both the OT and NT (Isa44:3; Acts10). Does it bother you that God changes their hearts first so that they will begin to worship Him (as hard hearted people have no interest in turning to God in faith) and that they only repented in v31 AFTER their stone hearts were replaced? That He put His Spirit in them to “cause” them to obey? (That is pretty unAmerican...)

God did not give them a new heart because they did not repent.

Why do you think they died?

(Cont.)

 

[beloved57]

Yours is the man made teaching from Calvin who made it the most prominently known. Luther before him had a form of it. They both probably got some of it from their Catholic college teachings after studying Augustine and others.

Your beliefs are nowhere in the scriptures. God does not save unbelievers. Give one scripture that says God saves unbelievers and I would believe.


That is pretty presumptuous of you to say that.


God did not give them a new heart because they did not repent.

Why do you think they died?

(Cont.)

False teaching not found in scripture! Those Christ died for are saved, reconciled to God while they are enemies and unbelievers.

Sent from my 5054N using TheologyOnline mobile app

 

[God's Truth]

Same kind of picture in Ezek37, God initiates a change in them and then they shall know that He is Lord:
Ezek37:1 The hand of the Lord came upon me and brought me out in the Spirit of the Lord, and set me down in the midst of the valley; and it was full of bones. 2 Then He caused me to pass by them all around, and behold, there were very many in the open valley; and indeed they were very dry. 3 And He said to me, “Son of man, can these bones live?” So I answered, “O Lord God, You know.”
4 Again He said to me, “Prophesy to these bones, and say to them, ‘O dry bones, hear the word of the Lord! 5 Thus says the Lord God to these bones: “Surely I will cause breath to enter into you, and you shall live. 6 I will put sinews on you and bring flesh upon you, cover you with skin and put breath in you; and you shall live. Then you shall know that I am the Lord.”

All are going to be resurrected at the resurrection.

I know a lot of noncalvinists (like Robert Pate) who say that if man is really spiritually dead as Calvinists teach, they wouldn't bother with missions. But Calvinists preach the Gospel to all because, like Ezekiel, we believe that God has the power to raise the dead. There is no worry that their “free will” might send God's word back void –

Robert Pate is a false teacher.

The reason why we are to preach the true gospel to others is so that they can repent and be saved.

(Cont.)

 

[JudgeRightly]

False teaching not found in scripture! Those Christ died for are saved, reconciled to God while they are enemies and unbelievers.

But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. - Romans 5:8 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans5:8&version=NKJV

Christ died for us while we were sinners and unbelievers and enemies, yes. But people aren't saved just because he died. They have to repent/believe to be saved.

 

[God's Truth]

Ezek36:25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and CAUSE you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them....31 THEN you will remember your evil ways and your deeds that were not good; and you will loathe yourselves in your own sight, for your iniquities and your abominations.

I am glad you brought up Ezekiel; I know that is what Calvinists do, but they do not use this scripture because it rebukes them:

Ezekiel 18:31 Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel?

Did you read that?

They have to rid themselves of their sins first. They have to repent.

 

[God's Truth]

Isa55:11. (It's also worth pointing out that commanding the dry bones to “hear” does not mean they had the natural ability to hear.) While flesh only gives birth to flesh, God's Spirit gives birth to spirit. (John3:6) Even the language is weird, right? You do understand that you had zero freedom to determine your physical birth?

You are chasing your tail. We are talking about living people who want more out of life than just pleasing their flesh. We are not just flesh, we are flesh and spirit. Some people are only interested in pleasing their flesh with sinful acts, and there are others who are more spiritual and want more out of life. Those who come to Jesus to be saved and obey, they will be the one who are raised to eternal life; the other will be raised to eternal condemnation. That is what the resurrection is all about.

 

[God's Truth]

And believe me, I get that if Timothy were an American, he would ask the dunce question: “But Paul, what if God gives them repentance and they turn it down?” But he wasn't and therefore, didn't. When God gives someone repentance, you can tell...because there is actual, visible repentance. (Otherwise, Paul's words here are meaningless.)

Try to consider this more carefully, it might cause you to repent of your false doctrines, if you humble yourself:

Paul is speaking to those who are standing before him, in case they who claim to have faith and who have not also REPENTED of their sins:

Romans 2:5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed.

Saying you believe and have faith will do NOTHING FOR YOU if you did not repent.

Colossians 3:23 Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for human masters, 24 since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward. It is the Lord Christ you are serving. 25 Anyone who does wrong will be repaid for their wrongs, and there is no favoritism.

 

[God's Truth]

Acts 11:18When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, “Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life.”

The scripture says when the GENTILES heard this they began rejoicing. Why do you think they were rejoicing? The Gentiles were just told that they could now have a relationship with God; they could now have eternal life. The Gentiles used to be excluded, and without God in the world, see Ephesians 2:12.

HOWEVER, NOW they were told they could have salvation! All those Gentiles who were there who heard the good news, that Gentiles as a race of people could now have eternal life, they believed. Gentiles as a nation of people were appointed to eternal life, not all Gentiles will have eternal life, and only the Gentiles who believe will have eternal life. The Gentiles who were appointed life---all those there at that time believed.

Acts 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.

There were Jews AND Gentiles in the crowd. All who were appointed [the Gentiles] in the crowd, all of them there believed.

 

[God's Truth]

Calvinism did a number on many people, but there is no excuse anymore, for you can get a Bible and start believing and obeying and know for yourself what the truth is.

 

[God's Truth]

1Sam2:22-25Now Eli was very old; and he heard everything his sons did to all Israel, and how they lay with the women who assembled at the door of the tabernacle of meeting. So he said to them, “Why do you do such things? For I hear of your evil dealings from all the people. No, my sons! For it is not a good report that I hear. You make the Lord’s people transgress. If one man sins against another, God will judge him. But if a man sins against the Lord, who will intercede for him?” Nevertheless they did not heed the voice of their father, because the Lord desired to kill them.

So why didn't Eli's sons heed their father and repent? It's true that they were rebellious and hard hearted but that's not the reason that the Bible gives...

They sinned against God. Even their father Eli tells them, “…who will intercede…?”

Read a little further:

Prophecy Against the House of Eli
27 Now a man of God came to Eli and said to him, “This is what the LORD says: ‘Did I not clearly reveal myself to your ancestor’s family when they were in Egypt under Pharaoh?

28 I chose your ancestor out of all the tribes of Israel to be my priest, to go up to my altar, to burn incense,and to wear an ephod in my presence. I also gave your ancestor’s family all the food offerings presented by the Israelites. 29 Why do you scorn my sacrifice and offering that I prescribed for my dwelling? Why do you honor your sons more than me by fattening yourselves on the choice parts of every offering made by my people Israel?’

30 “Therefore the LORD, the God of Israel, declares: ‘I promised that members of your family would minister before me forever.’ But now the LORD declares: ‘Far be it from me! Those who honor me I will honor, but those who despise me will be disdained.

Did you read that Charles? There is NOTHING about Calvinism there.

31 The time is coming when I will cut short your strength and the strength of your priestly house, so that no one in it will reach old age, 32 and you will see distress in my dwelling. Although good will be done to Israel, no one in your family line will ever reach old age. 33 Every one of you that I do not cut off from serving at my altar I will spare only to destroy your sight and sap your strength, and all your descendants will die in the prime of life.

34 “‘And what happens to your two sons, Hophni and Phinehas, will be a sign to you—they will both die on the same day. 35 I will raise up for myself a faithful priest, who will do according to what is in my heart and mind. I will firmly establish his priestly house, and they will minister before my anointed one always. 36 Then everyone left in your family line will come and bow down before him for a piece of silver and a loaf of bread and plead, “Appoint me to some priestly office so I can have food to eat.”’”

Consider more carefully what is written.
God hardened Pharaoh and even Eli's two sons, but it was because they were such great sinners and in these circumstances, the punishment was a great teaching tool. It is a great teaching tool that you miss, as all Calvinists do.

 

[Brother Vinny]

Calvinism did a number on many people, but there is no excuse anymore, for you can get a Bible and start believing and obeying and know for yourself what the truth is.

It is to laugh. We're celebrating 500 years of Reformation made possible by the availability of the Bible in print, and you're acting like Calvinism arose in a dearth of Scripture availability.

Ha, I say. Ha.

 

[God's Truth]

It is to laugh. We're celebrating 500 years of Reformation made possible by the availability of the Bible in print, and you're acting like Calvinism arose in a dearth of Scripture availability.

Ha, I say. Ha.

What you are not getting is that the people fooled by Calvinism allowed others to teach them false things about the scriptures. I am telling them to read the scriptures for themselves.

 

[Brother Vinny]

What you are not getting is that the people fooled by Calvinism allowed others to teach them false things about the scriptures. I am telling them to read the scriptures for themselves.

I dunno. Calvin read the Bible for himself, came up with Calvinism. :idunno:

You may have to just deal with the fact that some people see Calvinism in the Bible.

 

[God's Truth]

I dunno. Calvin read the Bible for himself, came up with Calvinism. :idunno:

You may have to just deal with the fact that some people see Calvinism in the Bible.

They were taught it.

 

[Brother Vinny]

They were taught it.

It was predestined so.

 

[God's Truth]

It was predestined so.

Prove it to me by replying to the posts I made to Charles.

 

[Brother Vinny]

Prove it to me by replying to the posts I made to Charles.

Prove it? It happened, therefore it was predestined to. :chuckle:

 

[Robert Pate]

I dunno. Calvin read the Bible for himself, came up with Calvinism. :idunno:

You may have to just deal with the fact that some people see Calvinism in the Bible.

John Calvin was about 25 years old when he came up with his doctrine of predestination, and fresh out of the Catholic church. Not exactly a scholar. He was really jealous of Luther and his teaching that we are justified by faith apart from the works of the law. He wanted to be famous like Luther.

 

[Truster]

John Calvin was about 25 years old when he came up with his doctrine of predestination, and fresh out of the Catholic church. Not exactly a scholar. He was really jealous of Luther and his teaching that we are justified by faith apart from the works of the law. He wanted to be famous like Luther.

Predetermination (predestination) is not something the regenerate "come up with". Predetermination in salvation is the answer to a question the saved sinner always asks, "why me?"