Burning skyscraper engulfed in flames and smoke collapses because of so much fire.

CabinetMaker

Member of the 10 year club on TOL!!
Hall of Fame
So, you're sticking by the idea that an unsupported wall made of structural steel simply collapses straight down upon itself rather than leaning in one direction or another and then falling over. I would love to see you demonstrate that in reality, not in a computer simulation.
What direction does gravity accelerate objects? Here is a fun experiment you can try at home. Stand on an aluminum can. If you are careful (and light enough, i'm not any more) you can stand on the can without crushing it. Then gently tap the sides of the can just hard enough to deform the wall. You will see that the can collapse straight down on top of itself. That is because gravity pulls towards the center of the planet.

The fact that the laws of physics say otherwise is meaningless I guess.
The laws of physics say that gravity pulls straight down, not to the side. So when the bottom of the walls buckled, the top of the walls were unsupported and fell in what direction? According to physics, straight down. At least until they encountered resistance resulting in a change to the velocity vectors resulting in the outer walls falling across the street into another building.

How did that structural steel support all that extra weight of those internal floors when the building was intact?
They hadn't been exposed to 7 hours of fire so the steel was strong enough to support the loads it was designed to support.

It's only after they are relieved of that excess weight that they collapse straight down by crumbling from the bottom up? Yeah.... There's some real science. I can see why it took you seven years to convince yourself of this.
They were not relieved of any excess weight. The steel was heated to a point where it was weakened to the point it could no longer support the weight. Add to that the the thermal expansion of the steel puts additional stresses on the connections, stresses that they are not designed to handle and you suddenly have a structure that is no longer capable of supporting its own weight.

And you haven't even begun to address the fact that all the buildings in the video you posted were completely engulfed with flames before they collapsed. The flames were shooting out of them from top to bottom and on all sides of the buildings. None of them showed a building collapsing that had a little smoke coming out of a very small percentage of the building's windows, and only on one side of the building. All the windows were gone, blown out by the gasses and heat created by the fire. Building 7's windows were intact and no flames or smoke were visible over at least 98% of the building. Even where the video says the roof was collapsing from the fire beneath it there was very little smoke compared to what kind of fire is said to have been raging inside that building. Again, I can see why it took you seven years to convince yourself all of it is true.
Do you understand your fallacy here? Question: do have to actually see flames for there to be a fire? There were visible fires burning in 7. Not all the fires may have been visible. But there was sure a lot of smoke coming out of a building that you claim was not on fire. Where did that smoke come from?

I sort of have to laugh that you believe that a computer simulation is an absolute truth. A computer simulation does exactly what the programmers tell it to do. A simulation can make anything look plausible if the programmers want it to. A computer in the hands of a fraudulent programmer does nothing but display the fraud the programmer wants it to. So, a computer simulation is basically meaningless. Look at Twitter. They make it appear certain people don't actually tweet unless you deliberately go that person's account. Otherwise their tweets don't appear to exist. Google does the same thing. They bury the results you're searching for if they don't want you to find them. Youtube does the same thing. Computer output and reality are quite often not the same thing. Anyone who insists they must be identical has no real understanding of how computers operate.
Obviously you have never worked with computer simulations. Simulations are not programmed to give a particular result. IF that was the case they would be absolutely worthless as an engineering tool. Simulations are programmed with the properties of the elements to be examined. In this case, the steel is modeled with its alloys so that it will respond the way an actual beam would respond. It is programmed with the weights, the steel connections and then the parameters of the fire are defined. Then the simulation runs to determine how the elements in the model react. If you wish to claim that the engineers who created and ran the models somehow cooked the data then it is your responsibility to provide the proof that that is actually the case.
 

WatchmanOnTheWall

Well-known member
You should research Thermite and/or Electro-hydrodynamic Gaseous Fuel device. They wouldn't use commercially available explosives as a demolition company would use.

There were military explosives available in the 90s that can change the molecular structure in a cloud created around a structure. The electrically charged cloud crushes steel to dust.

totse.com | CIA's METC Explosives - 9-11 Research

You've been watching too much 'A' Team mate. "I pity the fool"-:troll: <That's supposed to be BA.
 

Gary K

New member
Banned
What direction does gravity accelerate objects? Here is a fun experiment you can try at home. Stand on an aluminum can. If you are careful (and light enough, i'm not any more) you can stand on the can without crushing it. Then gently tap the sides of the can just hard enough to deform the wall. You will see that the can collapse straight down on top of itself. That is because gravity pulls towards the center of the planet.

The laws of physics say that gravity pulls straight down, not to the side. So when the bottom of the walls buckled, the top of the walls were unsupported and fell in what direction? According to physics, straight down. At least until they encountered resistance resulting in a change to the velocity vectors resulting in the outer walls falling across the street into another building.

They hadn't been exposed to 7 hours of fire so the steel was strong enough to support the loads it was designed to support.

They were not relieved of any excess weight. The steel was heated to a point where it was weakened to the point it could no longer support the weight. Add to that the the thermal expansion of the steel puts additional stresses on the connections, stresses that they are not designed to handle and you suddenly have a structure that is no longer capable of supporting its own weight.

Do you understand your fallacy here? Question: do have to actually see flames for there to be a fire? There were visible fires burning in 7. Not all the fires may have been visible. But there was sure a lot of smoke coming out of a building that you claim was not on fire. Where did that smoke come from?


Obviously you have never worked with computer simulations. Simulations are not programmed to give a particular result. IF that was the case they would be absolutely worthless as an engineering tool. Simulations are programmed with the properties of the elements to be examined. In this case, the steel is modeled with its alloys so that it will respond the way an actual beam would respond. It is programmed with the weights, the steel connections and then the parameters of the fire are defined. Then the simulation runs to determine how the elements in the model react. If you wish to claim that the engineers who created and ran the models somehow cooked the data then it is your responsibility to provide the proof that that is actually the case.

So, you say there is a fire hot enough to melt the vast majority of the structural steel in the building and it doesn't appear on 98% of the building's exterior. It melted the structual steel at the bottom of the building when only a couple of windows near the top of the entire building had smoke coming from them. It's amazing how determinedly you stick to this and refuse to acknowledge that the video you provided showed buildings 100% engulfed in flames before they collapsed. That's how hot the fires had to be to affect the strength of the structural steel.

In the video of the collapse of building 7, taken by news cameras, it shows the windows on that entire side of the building were intact. No light from flames inside the building showed through them at all. If there was a massive fire raging there wouldn't it be visible through those windows? I mean how would steel melt that didn't have fire actually contact with it? Or were those special windows that wouldn't transmit the enormous amount of light created by that massive of a fire inside the building? How was there enough heat from fire to melt steel and it didn't create enough gasses and heat to break 98% of the windows? How were they intact until the building actually collapsed from all that supposed heat? And in the video when it shows those windows breaking there is no smoke coming from them at all. No smoke ever came out of those windows even after they broke. And the amount of smoke coming out of the top of building 7 could easily have been created by one or two rooms on fire. But that's not what your video asserts. Your video asserts that there was enough heat and flames to destroy the structural integrity of the building.

BTW, i've never denied that a fire existed. The one video shows some smoke exiting from a couple of windows high up on the building. However, that is not evidence of a massive fire raging throughout the building that is hot enough to collapse the interal flooring structure of the building. A fire that large and that hot had to create far more smoke and breakage of windows. Even your simulation shows that the heat was close enough to the external walls that the flames had to be right next to them. Why were not all those windows blown out by the heat and gasses? Magic? How did all these gasses and that massive amount of heat only affect a couple of windows when the fire had to be right next to a hundred or more of them? All of this is completely unexplained. You haven't even begun to address it. You've danced all around it, but haven't actually addressed it.

As to your comments on computer simulations. Of course a fraudulent simulation is worthless in real life. Of course it is useless to engineers in real life. Whoever said it wasn't? The point is, if you want to make something appear real that isn't you can easily do it with a computer simulation. And the only one who will know the simulation isn't real is the programmer. The engineer may very well think the results are real because they fed real data into the program interface when the results are false because of how the programmer wrote the code. And it would take a lot of code specifically written for this one simulation. That leaves it wide open to fraud.

Your pop can assertion is not correct. The only way to get a pop can to crush exactly in on itself is to NOT bend any of the sides of the can. As soon as you crinkle one side of the can the top always moves towards that side of the can when you crush it. I've done it hundreds of times. And, that isn't even a valid analogy for in the crushing of the can there is a force tending to hold the the top exactly where it starts from, i.e. the friction created between your foot or whatever you use to exert pressure on the top of the can, and the top of the can itself. There was no such force available to building 7. Furthermore the sides of the can do not crumble. They bend in multiple directions. They accordian and stay in one piece, even if you heat the can.

Here's a little experiment for you to try. Take a thin pieice of sheet metal and hold it in place on the bottom so that it stands vertically. Now apply heat to the base of the sheet metal until it weakens along it's entire length. Will the sheet metal collapse straight down from the force of gravity, or will the it buckle and then fall to one side or the other? I know, it's not a perfect simulation of what happened, but it demonstrates how an unsupported external wall will fall one way or the other depending on how it buckles from heat rather than just crumbling to dust vertically in a matter of seconds. Steel just doesn't act that way. I've never seen it happen in several years of working with metals. I was a mill wright, a welder, and a fabricator, for several years and I've never seen what you assert to be possible. Steel just doesn't act that way unless you can apply enormous amounts of heat to it that are not possible with a natural gas fire or the combustion of internal building materials. It will weaken and bend long before you can apply enough heat to make it crumble. And, it takes an extemely hot fire buring for an extended period of time just to burn away the insulation that is sprayed on structural steel just in case a building catches fire.

Now, look at the video that shows the top of the building starting to collapse. What you will see rising from there is a light gray dust. Almost white in color. And there are only a few wisps of it there. That is not consistent with the smoke from a fire upon which has just fallen a combination of both combustible and non-combustible material. Any fire to which that has happened produces immense amounts smoke, most of which is dark. Anyone who has ever watched a fire knows this to be true. You watch a building fire in which the roof has just collapsed and it sends up an immediate increase in the volume of smoke. That does not happen with building 7.

You might even look around at the following link as all these architects and forensic engineers disagree with NIST on 9/11 too. http://www.ae911truth.org/
 

CabinetMaker

Member of the 10 year club on TOL!!
Hall of Fame
So, you say there is a fire hot enough to melt the vast majority of the structural steel in the building and it doesn't appear on 98% of the building's exterior. It melted the structual steel at the bottom of the building when only a couple of windows near the top of the entire building had smoke coming from them. It's amazing how determinedly you stick to this and refuse to acknowledge that the video you provided showed buildings 100% engulfed in flames before they collapsed. That's how hot the fires had to be to affect the strength of the structural steel.
Neither me nor the video EVER said that the fires were hot enough to melt steel. What we did say is that the fire weakens the steel to the point that it can no longer support the loads on it. We have also said that the fire weakened and stressed the steel connections causing them to fail as well.

In the video of the collapse of building 7, taken by news cameras, it shows the windows on that entire side of the building were intact. No light from flames inside the building showed through them at all. If there was a massive fire raging there wouldn't it be visible through those windows?
Depends on the fire was, doesn't it. You are assuming that the fire is in the floors that were visible to the camera. What if the fires are burning much lower in the building? The cameras wouldn't see it AND fire damage at lower levels is much more likely to result in a catastrophic failure because the loads on the steel are much higher. A failure there results in a much larger unsupported load.

I mean how would steel melt that didn't have fire actually contact with it? Or were those special windows that wouldn't transmit the enormous amount of light created by that massive of a fire inside the building? How was there enough heat from fire to melt steel and it didn't create enough gasses and heat to break 98% of the windows?
Answered rather neatly by fires burning low in the building an venting out the damage on the side of the building away from most cameras.

How were they intact until the building actually collapsed from all that supposed heat?
If the fire is low there is no heat working on the windows. You need to follow your assumption through. DO they match what you see? If not, why not? Is there another explanation that does match?

And in the video when it shows those windows breaking there is no smoke coming from them at all. No smoke ever came out of those windows even after they broke.
Again, you are making assumptions about the location of the fires that you cannot prove.

And the amount of smoke coming out of the top of building 7 could easily have been created by one or two rooms on fire. But that's not what your video asserts. Your video asserts that there was enough heat and flames to destroy the structural integrity of the building.
Depends on where the fires are. A fire burning up high doesn't pose nearly the risk as the same fire burning low in the same building.

BTW, i've never denied that a fire existed. The one video shows some smoke exiting from a couple of windows high up on the building. However, that is not evidence of a massive fire raging throughout the building that is hot enough to collapse the interal flooring structure of the building. A fire that large and that hot had to create far more smoke and breakage of windows. Even your simulation shows that the heat was close enough to the external walls that the flames had to be right next to them. Why were not all those windows blown out by the heat and gasses? Magic? How did all these gasses and that massive amount of heat only affect a couple of windows when the fire had to be right next to a hundred or more of them? All of this is completely unexplained. You haven't even begun to address it. You've danced all around it, but haven't actually addressed it.
A fire doesn't have to be massive to be hot. You can set up a forge in your garage that will easily heat steel. A fire burning in a confined area can set up a chimney effect that acts as a furnace to intensify the flames. You never denied a fire nor did you ever put any effort into understanding fires and how fire effects steel strength.

As to your comments on computer simulations. Of course a fraudulent simulation is worthless in real life. Of course it is useless to engineers in real life. Whoever said it wasn't? The point is, if you want to make something appear real that isn't you can easily do it with a computer simulation. And the only one who will know the simulation isn't real is the programmer. The engineer may very well think the results are real because they fed real data into the program interface when the results are false because of how the programmer wrote the code. And it would take a lot of code specifically written for this one simulation. That leaves it wide open to fraud.
They used commercially available software. That is not wide open to fraud. Nobody would buy a program that gives false results.

Your pop can assertion is not correct. The only way to get a pop can to crush exactly in on itself is to NOT bend any of the sides of the can. As soon as you crinkle one side of the can the top always moves towards that side of the can when you crush it. I've done it hundreds of times.
True, you do need to dent two sides. Which, not surprisingly, matches what the video shows regarding how the wall buckled.

And, that isn't even a valid analogy for in the crushing of the can there is a force tending to hold the the top exactly where it starts from, i.e. the friction created between your foot or whatever you use to exert pressure on the top of the can, and the top of the can itself. There was no such force available to building 7. Furthermore the sides of the can do not crumble. They bend in multiple directions. They accordian and stay in one piece, even if you heat the can.
This is a clear demonstration that you have no idea how friction works. The ONLY think keeping your foot from falling to the ground is the wall of the can. When that fails, there is NOTHING holding your foot up. The can is a very good analogy for the walls of 7 because once the internal structure collapsed, nothing was left to stabilize the walls and they collapsed under their own weight.

Here's a little experiment for you to try. Take a thin pieice of sheet metal and hold it in place on the bottom so that it stands vertically. Now apply heat to the base of the sheet metal until it weakens along it's entire length. Will the sheet metal collapse straight down from the force of gravity, or will the it buckle and then fall to one side or the other? I know, it's not a perfect simulation of what happened, but it demonstrates how an unsupported external wall will fall one way or the other depending on how it buckles from heat rather than just crumbling to dust vertically in a matter of seconds.
This statement shows that you do not understand system modeling. A single sheet of steel standing vertically in no way accurately represents the walls of the building. This experiment is meaningless in trying to understand how a building constructed of individual steel member that are bolted and welded together to create a wall.

Steel just doesn't act that way. I've never seen it happen in several years of working with metals. I was a mill wright, a welder, and a fabricator, for several years and I've never seen what you assert to be possible. Steel just doesn't act that way unless you can apply enormous amounts of heat to it that are not possible with a natural gas fire or the combustion of internal building materials. It will weaken and bend long before you can apply enough heat to make it crumble. And, it takes an extemely hot fire buring for an extended period of time just to burn away the insulation that is sprayed on structural steel just in case a building catches fire.
Look up this thread a bit and look at the table that relates steel strength to temperature. A 1,200° fire is easily attained in a home and office fires and that is where steel loses half its strength. As a mill wright, you probably did not work on structural steel. You probably have not designed a steel building so you are probably not versed in how to design it, what loads are considered and what safety margin is used. Steel buildings are very different from machining steel.

Now, look at the video that shows the top of the building starting to collapse. What you will see rising from there is a light gray dust. Almost white in color. And there are only a few wisps of it there. That is not consistent with the smoke from a fire upon which has just fallen a combination of both combustible and non-combustible material.
It is consistent with dust, particularly concrete dust, that would be present as the concrete floors disintegrated. Again, there is no indication of fire on these floors but fires burning lower in the building would not immediately vent out the roof. The collapsing materials would most likely drive smoke and dust out any opening in the building shell.

Any fire to which that has happened produces immense amounts smoke, most of which is dark. Anyone who has ever watched a fire knows this to be true. You watch a building fire in which the roof has just collapsed and it sends up an immediate increase in the volume of smoke. That does not happen with building 7.
In a single story building what you say is true. Building 7 is not a single story. We have a rather large number of stories that are dropping down and creating their own wind forcing smoke and dust out of the way therefore not allowing it to rise through the roof.

You might even look around at the following link as all these architects and forensic engineers disagree with NIST on 9/11 too. http://www.ae911truth.org/
I've looked over their documents and I was not impressed. They are guilty of the same thing you are: they have a preconceived notion and are looking at the evidence only to confirm their pet theory. You never EVER go into an investigation assuming you know what happened. You always start with the evidence and see where it leads.
 

patrick jane

BANNED
Banned
There are unanswered question about 9/11. The method of the building collapse is not one of them. The report looked at a controlled demolition explanation. It was found that demolition did not match the actual collapse of the buildings. It was found that the damage caused by the initial impact followed by uncontrolled fires did match the video evidence of the collapse.

I fail to understand why so many people insist that it was our own people who did this.
9/11 Un-debunked Version 2.0: The First Steel Framed High-Rise Fire Collapses



6 minutes


https://youtu.be/k3RnkVzVmQA
 
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patrick jane

BANNED
Banned
WTC Debate Chris Mohr vs Richard Gage


My input.
This is 9o% audio with minimal photos and footage but worth listening to for anyone that wants to hear the truth. You will hear the best arguments from both sides. There are many other debates and videos still available on youtube. Yet this is only ONE issue of the whole tragedy. There are very many 9/11 victims' families that don't believe what they've been told.

Citizens For 9/11 Truth input:
Originally this video was uploaded in 11 segments on YouTube. See: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list... I am uploading it now as one single video for reasons discussed below.On March 6th, 2011, Mr. Mohr debated with architect Richard Gage on the WTC collapses. (See: http://tinyurl.com/78kzsj6) Although the audio of the debate has been released, the group Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth has decided not to release the video of the debate. As a result, Mr. Mohr has recently uploaded a series of videos to YouTube which aim to rebut the claims made by Richard Gage in his video presentation 9/11 Blueprint for Truth. (See: http://www.youtube.com/user/chrismohr911) Mr. Mohr refers to these videos as “respectful rebuttals” and not “debunking.” Indeed, after reviewing Mr. Mohr’s videos myself, I find that he is very sincere about his concerns regarding the WTC demolition theory, and truly wants there to be a civil and respectful debate of the topic. However, I do not believe that Mr. Mohr’s rebuttals offer solid refutations of the points made in 911BT. In this paper, I will demonstrate why Mr. Mohr’s videos, while presenting some legitimate concerns of the controlled demolition theory, do not ultimately disprove the theory and do not support the theory of “natural collapse.”



https://youtu.be/re8lxwmTtFI
 

patrick jane

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Banned
Believe what you want is an incredibly weak response. You don't even attempt to refute any points raised by the video, you just beat your drum that controlled demolition is the ONLY explanation. Its not.

They are not the only three, the video I post clearly refutes that number.

If it was impossible for fire to bring down a building then there would not be ANY requirements for fire stopping steel in a building yet every building department requires it. If fire can't cause a failure, why require fire stopping. There is a NatGeo video that clearly shows an aviation fuel fire generates sufficient heat for steel to fail. It would seem that those 1,300 experts are ignoring certain facts of the collapses to support their pet theory. People do that.
I can see that you haven't investigated 9/11 but you've soaked up Nat Geo videos. Thermite was found on what little scrap remained, before all the steel was shipped out of the country, allowing no further evidence to be found. The short video I posted to you of collapses debunks your natural collapse farce. Here's a partial answer to your question of "our own people" being involved.

The Notorious Banned FOX 9-11-2001 News Footage Israeli/Mossad Links


1,049,742 Views

19 minutes

This was aired then immediately banned and removed from the Fox archives right after 9-11, a lot have people still have never seen it and is a must for the first step in the process.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbkQddEDPs0&t=303s


 

CabinetMaker

Member of the 10 year club on TOL!!
Hall of Fame
I can see that you haven't investigated 9/11 but you've soaked up Nat Geo videos. Thermite was found on what little scrap remained, before all the steel was shipped out of the country, allowing no further evidence to be found. The short video I posted to you of collapses debunks your natural collapse farce. Here's a partial answer to your question of "our own people" being involved.

The Notorious Banned FOX 9-11-2001 News Footage Israeli/Mossad Links


1,049,742 Views

19 minutes

This was aired then immediately banned and removed from the Fox archives right after 9-11, a lot have people still have never seen it and is a must for the first step in the process.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbkQddEDPs0&t=303s


The main problem with the thermite hypothesis is that thermite can't be used to cut vertical columns. Thermite is a powder. When you pack it around a vertical beam it does not damage the vertical beam. You can find videos that attempt to create a thermite device that will cut through a vertical beam and meet with some success. Until you look at the amount of rigging required to actually make the device work let alone ignite it. If somebody spends that much time rigging, conventional demolition explosives are much cheaper, quicker and easier. Especially given the nature of the outer wall structure.

A common misconception is that steel had to melt for the collapse to happen. That is not true at all. Here is an interesting table:
b782185f5321c0006d96050193f5fdb5--steel-suppliers-brazing.jpg

Note that at 1600°F steel glows and orange red color but it is still well below its melting point. The estimated temperatures of the fires that day were in the 1800°F range. At those temperatures, according to the graph I previously posted, steel retains only about 10% of its yield strength. How much weight can a beam support if it is only 10% as strong as it should be?

There were hot fires burning in the rubble for a while. I have often speculated that a blast furnace effect may have been created. The hot air rising drew air into the bottom of the fire. As more air is drawing in, the fire burns hotter resulting in more air going up the chiming which drew even more air into the fire. Kind of a positive feed back loop until an equilibrium was met. The temperatures in a blast furnace easily melt steel. Did this happen? We may never know. But it is much more believable than the conspiracy required to rig three building with thermite or thermate, fly airplanes into the side at precisely the locations where the thermite was placed and then wait for some number of hours to ignite the thermite. And this was all done by "us" to accomplish what?
 

patrick jane

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You should research Thermite and/or Electro-hydrodynamic Gaseous Fuel device. They wouldn't use commercially available explosives as a demolition company would use.

There were military explosives available in the 90s that can change the molecular structure in a cloud created around a structure. The electrically charged cloud crushes steel to dust.

totse.com | CIA's METC Explosives - 9-11 Research
@CabinetMaker - small print but please read. halfway down the page.
 

patrick jane

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Banned
I strongly believe that anyone with common sense and average deductive reasoning skills can examine the information on both sides of the issues and clearly see the truth. It's actually quite easy to find information that supports NIST and the 9/11 Commission conclusions but not as easy to find the opposing facts.

[FONT=&quot]Even the chair of the 9/11 Commission now admits that the official evidence they were given was 'far from the truth'.

[/FONT]
[h=3]9/11 - the big cover-up? | Opinion | The Guardian[/h]

[h=3]The 9/11 Commission Didn't Believe the Government … So Why ...[/h]

[h=3]THE TOP 40 Reasons to Doubt the Official Story - 911Truth.Org[/h]
 

CabinetMaker

Member of the 10 year club on TOL!!
Hall of Fame
I strongly believe that anyone with common sense and average deductive reasoning skills can examine the information on both sides of the issues and clearly see the truth. It's actually quite easy to find information that supports NIST and the 9/11 Commission conclusions but not as easy to find the opposing facts.

Even the chair of the 9/11 Commission now admits that the official evidence they were given was 'far from the truth'.

9/11 - the big cover-up? | Opinion | The Guardian



The 9/11 Commission Didn't Believe the Government … So Why ...



THE TOP 40 Reasons to Doubt the Official Story - 911Truth.Org

I think that to believe all of the points in the list requires a predisposition towards belief in conspiracy theories and a degree of paranoia. Sorry, but that is what I have observed to be true in my conversations with 9/11 truthers over the years.

By no means was 9/11 not exploited by various individuals and entities to further their own ends. People are greedy at heart and will exploit tragedy for their own gains.
 

patrick jane

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None of the videos I have ever seen looked anything like the explosive described in your link. What is your point with this link?

And it does not solve the problem of rigging.
If you watched ANY decent opposing video/documentary you would hear eyewitness reports of employees in the buildings that saw unknown "crews" come in overnight and be gone before people started showing up, leading up to the day.. Numerous elevator shut downs etc.

[h=3]The Missing Security Tapes For The World Trade Center - Activist Post[/h]
[FONT=&quot]Late on the night of August 23, 2001, at about 3 a.m. security cameras in the parking garage of the World Trade Center captured the arrival of two or three truck vans.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Visual examination determined the vans were separate and unique from trucks used by janitorial services, including different colors and devoid of markings. More curious, all the janitorial trucks had pulled out of the Towers by about 2:30 a.m—about half an hour before the second set of vans arrived.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]According to my high-level State Department source with a top security clearance, who disclosed the unusual nightly activity, no vans matching that description had entered the World Trade Center at such an hour in any of the weeks or months prior to that date. It was a unique event.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Security cameras caught the vans leaving the Towers at approximately 5 a.m—before the first wave of AAA personality types on Wall Street, driving Mercedes and BMWs, arrived to track the markets.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]For the next 10 to 12 nights, the same mysterious truck vans arrived at the World Trade Center at the same mysterious hour— after the janitorial crews had left the building and before the most fanatic robber barons on Wall Street showed up for work. The vans appeared at the World Trade Center from approximately August 23, 2001 until September 3 or 4, 2001. After that last night, they never appeared at the Towers again.

The vans were never heard of again, either. The 9/11 Commission was never informed of their surprising presence in the Towers three weeks before the 9/11 attack. Most of the 9/11 Truth Community has no knowledge of this extraordinary nightly activity, either.

[/FONT]

[h=3]WTC cameras, locks, electricity turned off weekend before 9/11 | Truth ...[/h]
[FONT=&quot]Many of us can’t believe explosives were placed in the World Trade Center because it would be impossible to “sneak” them in with so many people watching.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]This assumes a lot of things. First, it assumes that people are paying attention when “work” is going on in the Trade Center. Secondly, and more importantly, it assumes that even if people raise questions that someone is going to listen to them.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Scott Forbes, who was a senior database administrator for Fiduciary Trust, located on the 97thfloor of the South Tower received a remarkable notice three weeks before the 9/11 attacks. The Port Authority of New York informed his company that there would be a “power down” on the weekend of Sept. 8 and 9, 2001. This would mean that all power would be off in the top half of the south tower for most of the weekend.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Forbes has called this unprecedented, because to have a data centre lose power for two days requires major preparations and disruption. He reports that as part of the power down, all security cameras and security door locks were non-operational for about 36 hours.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“Remember there were no security locks on doors or security cameras, so access was free unless a door was locked by a manual key. Seeing so many ‘strangers’ who didn’t work at the WTC was unusual,” Forbes said.

[/FONT]

[h=3]Last Man Out on 9/11 Makes Shocking Disclosures | COTO Report[/h]Heroism and accolades aside, what is truly incredible about Rodriguez’s story is a shocking fact that has been concealed from public knowledge, and remains largely unknown to this day.
Rodriguez and a handful of co-workers who were down in the basement at the time of the attack, actually heard and felt huge explosions beneath their feet in the lower basement levels.
While this anomaly in itself should have been cause for serious investigation, it is the timing of these explosions that is extremely troubling:
They occurred several seconds before the first airplane impacted the tower.
The first of these explosions, which occurred about 7-8 seconds before the plane struck the tower was so powerful it literally threw Rodriguez upwards, clean off the floor, as parts of the false ceiling collapsed onto and around him.
Rodriguez heard and felt at least three explosions going off down in the basement levels within seconds of each other.
Absolute pandemonium broke out, with screams of “Bombs! Bombs!” rising above the din as terrified workers scattered in all directions, frantically seeking ways to escape.
[NB: There were a total of six basement levels. Level-2, immediately below Rodriguez’s position and the apparent location of the first explosion, was a “Mechanical Floor”—a restricted access area.]
But the “bombs” were by no means confined to the basement levels.
[FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]







[h=3]World Trade Center | Marvin Bush and the Planting of Explosives[/h]
 

patrick jane

BANNED
Banned
I think that to believe all of the points in the list requires a predisposition towards belief in conspiracy theories and a degree of paranoia. Sorry, but that is what I have observed to be true in my conversations with 9/11 truthers over the years.

By no means was 9/11 not exploited by various individuals and entities to further their own ends. People are greedy at heart and will exploit tragedy for their own gains.
I'm sure you're right, it's the greed of the conspiracy theorists that we should worry about and put a stop to. It sounds like you're already convinced that Bin Laden did it with 19 guys, nothing to see here. So many of us conspiracy nuts are getting rich off of all this doubting and questioning.
 

CabinetMaker

Member of the 10 year club on TOL!!
Hall of Fame
I'm sure you're right, it's the greed of the conspiracy theorists that we should worry about and put a stop to. It sounds like you're already convinced that Bin Laden did it with 19 guys, nothing to see here. So many of us conspiracy nuts are getting rich off of all this doubting and questioning.
Getting rich? No. But I don't think that the truthers are actually searching for truth, they are attempting to support their version of things, a version based on incomplete knowledge of all the aspects of the buildings construction and airplanes and to many you tube videos.. The simple fact of the matter is that planes hitting the towers fully explains the collapse of all three buildings. There are aspects of the collapses that may never be fully explained but that does not mean that a spectacular conspiracy theory is required. The dynamics of what happened after those planes hit the building is impossible to model in it entirety.
 

CabinetMaker

Member of the 10 year club on TOL!!
Hall of Fame
Here is one of the major problems with recreating events beit a crime or the collapse of the WTC buildings - eye witness accounts.
If you watched ANY decent opposing video/documentary you would hear eyewitness reports of employees in the buildings that saw unknown "crews" come in overnight and be gone before people started showing up, leading up to the day.. Numerous elevator shut downs etc.

The Missing Security Tapes For The World Trade Center - Activist Post


Late on the night of August 23, 2001, at about 3 a.m. security cameras in the parking garage of the World Trade Center captured the arrival of two or three truck vans.
Visual examination determined the vans were separate and unique from trucks used by janitorial services, including different colors and devoid of markings. More curious, all the janitorial trucks had pulled out of the Towers by about 2:30 a.m—about half an hour before the second set of vans arrived.
According to my high-level State Department source with a top security clearance, who disclosed the unusual nightly activity, no vans matching that description had entered the World Trade Center at such an hour in any of the weeks or months prior to that date. It was a unique event.
Security cameras caught the vans leaving the Towers at approximately 5 a.m—before the first wave of AAA personality types on Wall Street, driving Mercedes and BMWs, arrived to track the markets.

For the next 10 to 12 nights, the same mysterious truck vans arrived at the World Trade Center at the same mysterious hour— after the janitorial crews had left the building and before the most fanatic robber barons on Wall Street showed up for work. The vans appeared at the World Trade Center from approximately August 23, 2001 until September 3 or 4, 2001. After that last night, they never appeared at the Towers again.

The vans were never heard of again, either. The 9/11 Commission was never informed of their surprising presence in the Towers three weeks before the 9/11 attack. Most of the 9/11 Truth Community has no knowledge of this extraordinary nightly activity, either.

This is actually an unsupported assertion. Yes there is video but there is no corroboration of what is seen on the video. Did the investigators look into the vans and find out that they had a valid reason for being there? We don't know. All you have a short video showing the vans but no follow up with the building owner, tenant or investigative bodies as to whether the vans are important or not.

WTC cameras, locks, electricity turned off weekend before 9/11 | Truth ...


Many of us can’t believe explosives were placed in the World Trade Center because it would be impossible to “sneak” them in with so many people watching.
This assumes a lot of things. First, it assumes that people are paying attention when “work” is going on in the Trade Center. Secondly, and more importantly, it assumes that even if people raise questions that someone is going to listen to them.
Scott Forbes, who was a senior database administrator for Fiduciary Trust, located on the 97thfloor of the South Tower received a remarkable notice three weeks before the 9/11 attacks. The Port Authority of New York informed his company that there would be a “power down” on the weekend of Sept. 8 and 9, 2001. This would mean that all power would be off in the top half of the south tower for most of the weekend.
Forbes has called this unprecedented, because to have a data centre lose power for two days requires major preparations and disruption. He reports that as part of the power down, all security cameras and security door locks were non-operational for about 36 hours.
“Remember there were no security locks on doors or security cameras, so access was free unless a door was locked by a manual key. Seeing so many ‘strangers’ who didn’t work at the WTC was unusual,” Forbes said.


There is nothing unusual about a planned electrical outage, even for a data center. The WTC complex was about 30 years old when it was attacked. 30 years is the average life span for electrical equipment. It is not unreasonable for a project to have been undertaken to replace aging electrical equipment with new equipment to enhance the electrical service to the buildings. On a building like this, electrical distribution is spread across many floors. A building outage is inconclusive.

Last Man Out on 9/11 Makes Shocking Disclosures | COTO Report

Heroism and accolades aside, what is truly incredible about Rodriguez’s story is a shocking fact that has been concealed from public knowledge, and remains largely unknown to this day.
Rodriguez and a handful of co-workers who were down in the basement at the time of the attack, actually heard and felt huge explosions beneath their feet in the lower basement levels.
While this anomaly in itself should have been cause for serious investigation, it is the timing of these explosions that is extremely troubling:
They occurred several seconds before the first airplane impacted the tower.
The first of these explosions, which occurred about 7-8 seconds before the plane struck the tower was so powerful it literally threw Rodriguez upwards, clean off the floor, as parts of the false ceiling collapsed onto and around him.
Rodriguez heard and felt at least three explosions going off down in the basement levels within seconds of each other.
Absolute pandemonium broke out, with screams of “Bombs! Bombs!” rising above the din as terrified workers scattered in all directions, frantically seeking ways to escape.
[NB: There were a total of six basement levels. Level-2, immediately below Rodriguez’s position and the apparent location of the first explosion, was a “Mechanical Floor”—a restricted access area.]
But the “bombs” were by no means confined to the basement levels.









World Trade Center | Marvin Bush and the Planting of Explosives

Was the last man out an expert in explosives? How does he know that there were explosions beneath his feet instead of the impact of the collapsing upper floors be transmitted to the buildings foundations?

If I am working in my shop with the door open and I drop a sheet of plywood it makes a load bang and blows all the dust on the floor up. If the doors is open you hear a bang and see a blast of dust coming out the door so you conclude that there was an explosion in my shop. And you are wrong. As humans, we put things we cannot readily explain into terms that make sens to us. A concrete slab falling onto another slab kicks up a huge amount of dust and makes a terrible noise so most people erroneously conclude that they have just seen an explosion. People frequently describe gun shots as fire crackers. You need to be careful at taking eyewitness accounts at face value. This has been proven over and over again.
 

patrick jane

BANNED
Banned
Here is one of the major problems with recreating events beit a crime or the collapse of the WTC buildings - eye witness accounts.

[/B][/U][/FONT][/COLOR]This is actually an unsupported assertion. Yes there is video but there is no corroboration of what is seen on the video. Did the investigators look into the vans and find out that they had a valid reason for being there? We don't know. All you have a short video showing the vans but no follow up with the building owner, tenant or investigative bodies as to whether the vans are important or not.



There is nothing unusual about a planned electrical outage, even for a data center. The WTC complex was about 30 years old when it was attacked. 30 years is the average life span for electrical equipment. It is not unreasonable for a project to have been undertaken to replace aging electrical equipment with new equipment to enhance the electrical service to the buildings. On a building like this, electrical distribution is spread across many floors. A building outage is inconclusive.

[/I][/FONT][/COLOR]

Was the last man out an expert in explosives? How does he know that there were explosions beneath his feet instead of the impact of the collapsing upper floors be transmitted to the buildings foundations?

If I am working in my shop with the door open and I drop a sheet of plywood it makes a load bang and blows all the dust on the floor up. If the doors is open you hear a bang and see a blast of dust coming out the door so you conclude that there was an explosion in my shop. And you are wrong. As humans, we put things we cannot readily explain into terms that make sens to us. A concrete slab falling onto another slab kicks up a huge amount of dust and makes a terrible noise so most people erroneously conclude that they have just seen an explosion. People frequently describe gun shots as fire crackers. You need to be careful at taking eyewitness accounts at face value. This has been proven over and over again.
Darn it, you proved the conspiracy wrong.
 
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