BRXII Battle talk

[CabinetMaker]

Are you then suggesting God loves some more than others? That He will work enough to bring some to salvation but others He doesn't love enough to bring to salvation? God knows us better than we know ourselves. He knows what we need to bring us to salvation.

No. I am suggesting that humans love God less than they love other gods.

And we will when God is finished showing us what we individually need to know.

Not true. You assume that the lake of fire is temporary when it is not. God is more than willing to show you what you need to know in this life. Salvation is through faith and faith is only possible in this life on Earth. Upon death, faith is replaced with knowledge and absolute knowledge does not save.

 

[dale]

No. I am suggesting that humans love God less than they love other gods.

I'm not arguing against the position that humans don't love God. I'm saying nobody can be saved unless God does a work in our hearts to break through that lovelessness (grace). So if God does indeed break through some, I believe He will eventually break through all because He does love the whole world, not just some. To suggest that God breaks through that lovelessness for some but not all would suggest that He loved some more than the others. If you're saying that He did the exact same work for all, but not all are saved, then the reason some are saved must be because some are BETTER than the others. To suggest that some are saved because they are better contradicts salvation by grace.

 

[CabinetMaker]

I'm not arguing against the position that humans don't love God. I'm saying nobody can be saved unless God does a work in our hearts to break through that lovelessness (grace). So if God does indeed break through some, I believe He will eventually break through all because He does love the whole world, not just some. To suggest that God breaks through that lovelessness for some but not all would suggest that He loved some more than the others. If you're saying that He did the exact same work for all, but not all are saved, then the reason some are saved must be because some are BETTER than the others. To suggest that some are saved because they are better contradicts salvation by grace.

How many chances did God give Pharo? God ultimatly hardened Pharo's heart.

At least you are not denying that faith is only available to us in this one short life on Earth.

 

[Aimiel]

To suggest that God breaks through that lovelessness for some but not all would suggest that He loved some more than the others.

Your logic pretends that men don't have any freewill, but are merely chesspieces. God gave men freewill, and He shows mercy upon whom He wills. His Grace is available to all. Not all avail themselves of it.

 

[red77]

No, it is not. You assume that I meant God is not involved in our salvation. That is not true. God must work in your heart for us to be saved by grace alone through faith alone. But we must respond to God's work.

Remember Jesus and the rich man. The rich man came to Jesus and proclaimed that he was doing everything to follow Jesus and wanted to know what else he needed to do. Jesus confronted him with the truth that he needed to sell all his riches and give the money for the poor. The rich man went away shaking his head. The rich man was conronted with the truth and he chose to reject it. Jesus did not follow him and make him do it, He allowed the rich man to make the choice to reject the truth.

Just because the truth is revealed to us by God does not automatically mean we will respond to that truth. Humans can be remarkable bull headed and stupid when the choose.

Yes, and look what happened after the rich man walked off, the disciples asked Jesus about who could be saved, and I think everyone already knows the reply to that by now but here it is again "With man this is impossible but with God ALL KINDS of things are possible". I believe that God already knows how stupid and fallible men can be and has made provision accordingly

 

[red77]

There is always some group of people that gets it wrong. :idunno:

And these groups would say that you are also wrong...

 

[Aimiel]

I believe that God already knows how stupid and fallible men can be and has made provision accordingly

Simply believing something doesn't make it so. Those whose names aren't written in The Lamb's Book of Life will have their part in the Lake of Fire, whether or not you believe it.

 

[dale]

How many chances did God give Pharo? God ultimatly hardened Pharo's heart.

I see, so Pharaoh was just too evil for God to reach, but you were not too evil. You were saved because you are better than Pharaoh?

 

[dale]

Your logic pretends that men don't have any freewill, but are merely chesspieces. God gave men freewill, and He shows mercy upon whom He wills. His Grace is available to all. Not all avail themselves of it.

Not chess pieces, but people He cares about. Your logic suggests God just leaves us to ourselves. If your smart enough to figure it out, you get paradise. If you're too dumb... you burn for all eternity.

I believe God loves us all equally, and will do what it takes to save us all. He will leave the 99 and go search out the 1 lost.

 

[dale]

...He shows mercy upon whom He wills.

Yikes, I missed that part. What are you saying? He only wills to show mercy to some? The rest burn forever?

 

[logos_x]

Your logic pretends that men don't have any freewill, but are merely chesspieces.

It does not pretend anything. It says that man's will can change. It is your view that suggests that free will is taken away in the end....or is at least pointless because their is nothing that changes, forever.

God gave men freewill, and He shows mercy upon whom He wills.

That is a contradiction. All we are saying is that Grace has POWER...it isn't just something "out there somewhere" that you can grab if you are smart enough.

For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
(Rom 11:32 KJVR)

His Grace is available to all. Not all avail themselves of it.

I don't know if you have heard this before, but here is something the Apostle Paul said...

But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I labored more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.
(1Co 15:10 KJVR)

If not for Grace...we all could be like Adolf Hitler, or Stalin...or Charles Manson, whoever you think is something you could not possibly be.

Talking about grace as a "potential" that is only activated by our will is heretical...it certainly is not Biblical. It leaves Salvation within our own hands alone and does not meet our greatest need...which is a wayward, shortfallen will trapped by sin and it's curse.

Robert Farrer Capon
The world is by no means averse to religion. In fact, it is devoted to it with a passion. It will buy any recipe for salvation as long as that formula leaves the responsibility for cooking up salvation firmly in human hands. The world is drowning in religion. But it is scared out of its wits by any mention of the grace that takes the world home gratis.​

This discussion proves the point very well that Capon was addressing.

The self-righteous, relying on the many good works he imagines he has performed, seems to hold salvation in his own hand, and considers Heaven as a just reward of his merits. In the bitterness of his zeal he exclaims against all sinners, and represents the gates of mercy as barred against them, and Heaven as a place to which they have no claim. What need have such self-righteous persons of a Saviour? they are already burdened with the load of their own merits. Oh, how long they bear the flattering load, while sinners divested of everything, fly rapidly on the wings of faith and love into their Saviour's arms, who freely bestows on them that which he has so freely promised! --Jeanne Guyon​

 

[Aimiel]

"With man this is impossible but with God ALL KINDS of things are possible".

Please help me understand your reasoning. Why doesn't this verse say, "...with God everyone will be saved."?

 

[Ecumenicist]

Maybe it would be useful to think in terms of "rescue" vs "saved" language.

"Saved" may be a conscious choice for the elect penitent, but "rescue" would apply
to others. God, through Christ, has the ability and desire to "rescue" everyone.

 

[red77]

Simply believing something doesn't make it so. Those whose names aren't written in The Lamb's Book of Life will have their part in the Lake of Fire, whether or not you believe it.

Hmm, have their "PART" in the lake of fire Aimiel, how do you explain eternal torment with that, also - what exactly IS the lake of fire? That should be very easy by now to explain to all concerned just exactly what it is yes?

 

[red77]

Please help me understand your reasoning. Why doesn't this verse say, "...with God everyone will be saved."?

Please help me understand why you dont think that all kinds of things are possible for God - especially in "CONTEXT" of the disciples question to Jesus.
Why did they ask such a question and - WHY did Jesus answer the way he did? Please tell me what you think that Jesus meant with his answer of 'all kinds of things being possible for God' to the disciple's direct question about salvation......

 

[CabinetMaker]

Yes, and look what happened after the rich man walked off, the disciples asked Jesus about who could be saved, and I think everyone already knows the reply to that by now but here it is again "With man this is impossible but with God ALL KINDS of things are possible". I believe that God already knows how stupid and fallible men can be and has made provision accordingly

There is a rather large difference between possible and guarnteed.

 

[CabinetMaker]

I see, so Pharaoh was just too evil for God to reach, but you were not too evil. You were saved because you are better than Pharaoh?

Pharaoh was confronted with the power of God and repeatedly chose to ignor Him. God moved in my life and I responded. I do not know why some people respond and some don't. I don't hold the Calvinist view that only those God likes are saved. My salvaion is gift from and a work of God. It is something for which I am truely thankful.

 

[Aimiel]

Hmm, have their "PART" in the lake of fire Aimiel, how do you explain eternal torment with that...

As in, "take part in, or have only the company of."

...also - what exactly IS the lake of fire?

It is the ultimate destination of those whose names aren't found written in The Lamb's Book of Life. It is fire that is never extinguished. It is the blackness of darkness, forever. Clear?

Revelation 20:14-15
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Please help me understand why you dont think that all kinds of things are possible for God - especially in "CONTEXT" of the disciples question to Jesus.

I think no such thing. I'm merely drawing the natural conclusion that it will be possible for rich men to be saved, though we know of at least one who wasn't. Why do you think that he was? What Scripture tells you that anyone has ever gotten saved after dying?

Why did they ask such a question and - WHY did Jesus answer the way he did?

Because their assumption (just as most people's is today) was that someone who is rich is 'obviously' blessed by God, and will have an honored place in Heaven. When Jesus told them that a camel could pass through the eye of a needle easier than a rich man could get into Heaven it turned their religious thinking upside-down. They thought that by being 'good' or rich that men could please God. Today, many think the same thing. Some religious nuts even think that everyone will be saved. God isn't a 'trickster' or hustler. He told us that there would be those who will be cast out of His Presence, and He meant it.

Please tell me what you think that Jesus meant with his answer of 'all kinds of things being possible for God' to the disciple's direct question about salvation...

That, indeed, it is possible for anyone, even yourself, for instance, to be saved. Doesn't mean that they will be or that you are, it merely means that it is possible. Salvation, though, is only available while on this earth. Repent!!!

 

[logos_x]

Aimiel, and others

Is it your position that all Christians are required to believe in eternal conscious torment before they can be considered truely christian? And are they to believe that this unending punishing occurs because man is immortal, on his own, regardless of ones relationship with God?

 

[CabinetMaker]

Aimiel, and others

Is it your position that all Christians are required to believe in eternal conscious torment before they can be considered truely christian? And are they to believe that this unending punishing occurs because man is immortal, on his own, regardless of ones relationship with God?

I don't think it is a requirement of salvation. I do think that denying the finality and torment of the second death in the lake of fire denys the truth as presented in the scripture.

The western church has forgotten something. The Bible teaches us that we are to fear God. It teaches us that God loves us but we must never forget that we should also fear Him. It helps keep you God is in prospective. The book of revelations talks about God pouring out His wrath ujpon the world and killing at least 1/3 of mankind.