Blasphemy?

serpentdove

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Give me an example how the Islamic God differs from the Father in Heaven in attributes and in his own nature...
"Allah vs. God

Allah is not a personal god:

◦ As Islam scholar Jamal J. Elias points out, “Human Beings can know God through his attributes (such as mercy, justice, compassion, wrath, and so on), but the ultimate essence of God remains unknowable.” There is no personal fellowship to the Allah of the Quran. The main emphasis in Islam is not personal fellowship with God, but rather service, obedience and allegiance to him. There is no concept of God as father at all.

◦ In other words, Allah does not personally manifest himself to those he is “close” to.

Allah is not Triune:

◦ Allah is not a Trinity according to the Koran, “O People of the Book [Bible], exceed not the limits of your religion…And say not, Three [Trinity]. Desist, it is better for you. Allah is only one God.” (Sura 4:171)

◦ The Koran says, “They are unbelievers who say, ‘God is the Third of Three. No god is there but one God.’” (Sura 5:73)

Allah does not love sinners:

◦ “And Allah loves not an ungrateful sinner.” (Sura 2:276)
◦ “Allah surely loves not the disbelievers.” (Sura 3:32)
◦ “Surely Allah loves not such as are proud, boastful.” (Sura 4:36)
◦ “Surely He [Allah] loves not the prodigals.” (Sura 6:141)
◦ The concept that Allah does not love sinners is repeated twenty-four times in the Koran.

This is quite different from the God of the Bible. Over and over again, we read of God’s personal message of love, salvation and grace to mankind.

The Christian God is personal and knowable:

◦ John 17:3 says, “This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.”

◦ In Eph. 1:5, we are also adopted into the family of God, “having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself”

◦ And we can address God as Father:

• In Matthew 6:9 Jesus teaches us, “In this manner, therefore, pray: Our Father in heaven”

• Romans 8:15 says, “but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, ‘Abba, Father.’”

As Dr. John MacArthur points out, “Abba is an informal Aramaic term for Father, connoting intimacy, tenderness, dependence… Modern English equivalents would be Daddy, or Papa.”

The God of the Bible is Triune:

The unity of the Three can be seen in the following verses:

◦ Matt. 28:19 – “baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.”

◦ 1 Cor. 12:4-6 – “There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. There are differences in ministries, but the same Lord. And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God [the Father]”

◦ 2 Cor. 13:14 – “The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all.”

◦ Eph. 2:18 – “For through Him [Christ] we both have access by one Spirit to the Father...” Full text: Apologetics: Islam
 

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Qur'an (4:89) - "They wish that you should disbelieve as they disbelieve, and then you would be equal; therefore take not to yourselves friends of them, until they emigrate in the way of God; then, if they turn their backs, take them, and slay them wherever you find them; take not to yourselves any one of them as friend or helper."
Fail. Read it in context and explain to me how one can derive that the punishment for apostasy is death.

And again you have not addressed my criticism of your indifference to the OT, where God clearly orders the death penalty for apostasy.
 

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Take a look at his followers and then get back to us. :sherlock: Men become like the god they worship (Mt 7:20).

See:

On the Dirty Yak Watch
You should read the entire thread, and change your mind and reply to me how you were ignorant of Allah and who Allah is to Christians who speak Arabic and who have spoken Arabic before Islam.

In your next post you claim that Allah is not a personal God and that Allah does not "love" sinners. I don't have much time to go in depth as to what is meant by "love" and "mercy" and whether or not we have more than one definition for these words. If God loves sinners why does he punish them eternal death? Its a matter of definition. And surely my God is more merciful than your idea of God that seeks a blood ransom sort of thing as wages for sins.

This is derailing the thread so I will have to just say that I totally disagree with your notion that Allah is not a personal God and is distant. That's just pure ignorance, my God! Don't judge by what you know and don't speak of stuff you have no knowledge of. We might not call God as father (Abb) but we do call Him as Rabb. We might not agree with mere language "children of God", "family of God" but Allah surely is closer to you that even yourself. There is a whole dimension of Islam that deals with the spiritual aspect of our relationship with God (Sufism).
 

Aimiel

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What about the people before Christ? What about those who have not heard of Christ? God so loved the world?
Could The Judge of The Universe do anything that is un-just?
Jesus was sent to Israel and is their Messiah and King. Anyone who has heard his name and reject him will not be successful. I have not rejected him. I only attribute all praise and glory to God and ask God for guidance and light.
If you don't believe His Words you're rejecting Him. He has more proof of His Life in the four Gospels than all others mentioned in antiquity. He is The Son of God. You reject Him every time you pray to your false god. He is The Only Saviour. You need Him more than ever every single day.
 

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Could The Judge of The Universe do anything that is un-just?

God is not Unjust even in the least disagree. Hence I cannot accept Christianity.

If you don't believe His Words you're rejecting Him. He has more proof of His Life in the four Gospels than all others mentioned in antiquity. He is The Son of God. You reject Him every time you pray to your false god. He is The Only Saviour. You need Him more than ever every single day.

The only book in the world that claims to be the word of God in truth to all mankind is the Quran.

Jesus is not the saviour - God is. I pray to the Lord of the Universe and ask Him to guide me to the straight part. Do you do this?
 

Aimiel

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God is not Unjust even in the least disagree. Hence I cannot accept Christianity.
Without Christ, you have NO LIFE in you.

Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
Jesus is not the saviour - God is. I pray to the Lord of the Universe and ask Him to guide me to the straight part. Do you do this?
Jesus is The Saviour and The Lord of The Universe.
 

serpentdove

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"...In your next post you claim that Allah is not a personal God and that Allah does not "love" sinners. I don't have much time to go in depth as to what is meant by "love" and "mercy" and whether or not we have more than one definition for these words."
God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God in him (1 Jn 4:16).


"If God loves sinners why does he punish them eternal death?"

When you offend an eternal, holy being, your punishment should rightfully be eternal. The Lord has done all he can to save you (Ro 5:8) so there is no reason for you to die (Eze 18:31). Muhammad will be judged by the Lord Jesus (Re 20:11-12). Men who put their trust in him can know with certainty where they are going when they die. Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life (Jn 5:24).

See:

Comparisons Between Muhammad and Jesus
 

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Without Christ, you have NO LIFE in you.

Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.Jesus is The Saviour and The Lord of The Universe.

Says who? Says Anonymous quoting Jesus. I'll trust the Prophet more than I'll trust an Anonymous. And I worship God and ask Him the Lord of the Universe to guide me. I call upon God himself not some Christ according to some anonymous writer. Christ is in need of God's mercy just as we are. Christ is dead unless God gives him life. Christ is nothing except by the will and power of God. And furthermore Pauline philosophy is very unfair. What about those who have not heard about "Christ according to St.Paul"? What about those before Christ? Nay, rather God guides to his light whom he wills.
 

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God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God in him (1 Jn 4:16).

Even the God of the OT? I can quote a lot of stuff from the OT that shows God as being wrathful against the sinners.

And God is not love. God forbid. God is God.

When you offend an eternal, holy being, your punishment should rightfully be eternal. The Lord has done all he can to save you (Ro 5:8) so there is no reason for you to die (Eze 18:31). Muhammad will be judged by the Lord Jesus (Re 20:11-12). Men who put their trust in him can know with certainty where they are going when they die. Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life (Jn 5:24).

See:

Comparisons Between Muhammad and Jesus


You ignored the point. If God is love, how can love kill people? Why would love put sinners to eternal death?

I'm saying again - its a matter of definition.

And btw I believe in Him who sent Jesus as Christ. Does that mean I am saved? What about this blood sacrifice that your God (love) requires?
 

Aimiel

Well-known member
Says who? Says Anonymous quoting Jesus.
The Word of God is NOT 'anonymous' nor does It contain any errors. The Gospels provide proof that the apostles were not lying and gave an extremely accurate record of what they heard and saw. You rely upon the words of a single man who claims that he heard words from an angel. I'll stick with the four men whose stories not only line up precisely but who also described The One that they met Who came down from Heaven and went back up to Heaven, Who created the Universe and everything in it.
And I worship God and ask Him the Lord of the Universe to guide me.
That's the reason He led you to TOL and gave you a soft heart towards Christianity. It holds Truth that Islam does not.
I call upon God himself not some Christ according to some anonymous writer.
They are The Same Person.
Christ is in need of God's mercy just as we are.
For what? He never sinned.
Christ is dead unless God gives him life.
He said that if He were put to death He would raise Himself from the dead. He did.
Christ is nothing except by the will and power of God.
Amen. That's why He is The Judge of The Universe. He holds ALL power and authority in Heaven and in earth. He said so Himself.
And furthermore Pauline philosophy is very unfair.
No, you simply don't understand God's Kingdom, since you're not born again. You're still dead in your sin. Jesus said that those who are not born again cannot yet even SEE The Kingdom.

Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
What about those who have not heard about "Christ according to St.Paul"? What about those before Christ? Nay, rather God guides to his light whom he wills.
I agree. I asked you a rhetorical question earlier, about whether or not you believe that God (Who is just) would do anything that is unfair. You didn't answer.
 

serpentdove

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[God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God in him (1 Jn 4:16). ] "Even the God of the OT?"
The God of the Old Testament is the same God of the New Testament. God does not change (Mal 3:6). Jesus spoke about hell more than another other person in the bible.

"I can quote a lot of stuff from the OT that shows God as being wrathful against the sinners."
God's wrath puts an end to sin. That's a good thing. :plain: His wrath was not meant for you. Why will you die the second death? Jn 3:36, Re 20:14. Hell was created for the devil and his angels (Mt 25:41).

"And God is not love. God forbid. God is God."
Your god is not the God of scripture. He who does not love does not know God, for God is love (1 Jn 4:8).

They will put you out of the synagogues; yes, the time is coming that whoever kills you will think that he offers God service. And these things they will do to you because they have not known the Father nor Me (Jn 16:1–3).

"If God is love, how can love kill people? Why would love put sinners to eternal death?"
God is holy (Ps 16:10, Isa 11:4, 5). No filthy sinner will ever see heaven (1 Co 6:9-10). We were made to abide in him (Jn 15:4-6). It is our reason for being (logos [1 Jn 1-2). God gives us the dignity of our choices. He's not sick. He wont' demand love (Ac 17:27). He loves man (Jn 1:3) and he cares very much about how we treat others (Mk 12:29-31).

"...I believe in Him who sent Jesus as Christ. Does that mean I am saved?"
If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved (Ro 10:9).

"What about this blood sacrifice that your God (love) requires?"
Are you familiar with Pavlov's dog? Pavlov would ring a bell and then give dogs some food. The dogs would start to salivate in response to the bell. Eventually the dogs would salivate just at the ringing of the bell even without the food.

God required that the Jews sacrifice an animal for the forgiveness of sin (Gen. 4:4, 1 Sam. 15:22) but these sacrifices were inadequate to atone for sin (Ps. 40:6; Heb. 10:1–4). They were figurative for Christ's sacrifice (1 Cor. 5:7). Only he can reconcile God and man (Rom. 5:10).

As the dogs salivate at the bell, every Jew would have known that their sin required a blood sacrifice. God conditioned them so to speak (Heb 9:22). Every sin we commit will be paid for by us or by Christ (1 Pe 1:18, 19, Ro 3:25, 26). He offers his sinless perfection (2 Cor. 5:20, 21). He reconciles God and man (2 Cor. 5:18, 19).

The prophets spoke of his coming (Isa 41:22, 23, Lk 24:26, 27, 44). He lived the perfect life that neither you nor I could live (Heb 4:15). Since he died and rose again, he's the only man who can tell us what's what (Acts 2:32; Acts 3:15, Jn 10:18). We ought to listen to what he's got to say about life and death. Only he can justify the sinner (Ro 4:25, 8:34). Only he can provide hope (1 Cor. 15:18, 19).
 

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The Word of God is NOT 'anonymous' nor does It contain any errors. The Gospels provide proof that the apostles were not lying and gave an extremely accurate record of what they heard and saw. You rely upon the words of a single man who claims that he heard words from an angel. I'll stick with the four men whose stories not only line up precisely but who also described The One that they met Who came down from Heaven and went back up to Heaven, Who created the Universe and everything in it.

Nope you are assuming too much. God is the One who created the universe and everything in it so call him by his name and his attributes that are obvious. One thing I love about Islam is that it encourages us to call upon the Lord of the Universe himself without assuming he is this or that based upon the words of men. Surah Fathiha which is read atleast 17 times a day by all Muslims is the most uncircular prayer to God. Tell me why isn't the Lord of the Universe not guiding me into Pauline Philosophy when I call upon Him for guidance??

The Koran matches up with the OT 100%. The ways of God cannot change. God doesn't require blood to be spilt for forgiveness and salvation (why aren't the Jews of today practicing sin sacrifices if so?). The prophecies concerning Christ does not contract the Islamic version of Christ which is the truth. The NT is the odd one out as far as I know


That's the reason He led you to TOL and gave you a soft heart towards Christianity. It holds Truth that Islam does not.

GO to any Islamic forum of this sort and you'll see many knowledgeable ex-Christian Muslims. I am yet to come across even a single ex-Muslim Christian in this forum. In fact I personally know of no Christian who once held Islamic beliefs.



They are The Same Person.For what? He never sinned.He said that if He were put to death He would raise Himself from the dead. He did.Amen. That's why He is The Judge of The Universe. He holds ALL power and authority in Heaven and in earth. He said so Himself.No, you simply don't understand God's Kingdom, since you're not born again. You're still dead in your sin. Jesus said that those who are not born again cannot yet even SEE The Kingdom.

Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.I agree.

Everyone and everything in creation requires the grace and mercy of God to live on. If God was not merciful he would not have created His Words including that of Christ. Christ is like Adam.


I asked you a rhetorical question earlier, about whether or not you believe that God (Who is just) would do anything that is unfair. You didn't answer.

No he wouldn't. But even if we cannot judge him because of our lack of knowledge and understanding God should not be blatantly unfair.
 

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Because you are calling on an idol. Put away your idolotry/false god an call upon the real Lord and see what happens.

In what way am I attributing something unto God, that is deserving of an idol, when I call upon him through this prayer?

The real Lord is the Lord of the Universe, the Creator and the Sustainer- one God. In Arabic this Lord has the unique name Allah - something not given to intercessors or idols (ilah), and unlike the other does not have any distinction of gender, plurality etc The Supreme God.

The prayer goes like this:

1. In the Name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful.

2. All the praises and thanks be to Allah, the Lord of the 'Alamin (mankind, jinns and all that exists).

3. The Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful.

4. The Only Owner (and the Only Ruling Judge) of the Day of Recompense (i.e. the Day of Resurrection)

5. You (Alone) we worship, and You (Alone) we ask for help (for each and everything).

6. Guide us to the Straight Way

7. The Way of those on whom You have bestowed Your Grace, not (the way) of those who earned Your Anger , nor of those who went astray .

Amen

Why does this fail to draw me into Christianity?
 

Angel4Truth

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In what way am I attributing something unto God, that is deserving of an idol, when I call upon him through this prayer?
(snipped irrelevant pagan prayer to the idol Allah)

Why does this fail to draw me into Christianity?

Because Allah has no Son. God does though. Hence Allah is a blind deaf idol that you bow to, and not God.

They say, ‘God has begotten a son.’ God forbid! Self-sufficient is He. His is all that the heavens and the earth contain. Surely for this you have no sanction. Whould you say of God what you know not?
—Qur’an 10:68

Those who say: ‘The Lord of Mercy has begotten a son,’ preach a monstrous falsehood, at which the very heavens might crack, the earth break asunder, and the mountains crumble to dust. That they should ascribe a son to the Merciful, when it does not become the Lord of Mercy to beget one!
—Qur’an 19:88

Surely they lie when they declare: "Allah has begotten children".
—Qur'an 37:151
 

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Because Allah has no Son. God does though. Hence Allah is a blind deaf idol that you bow to, and not God.

They say, ‘God has begotten a son.’ God forbid! Self-sufficient is He. His is all that the heavens and the earth contain. Surely for this you have no sanction. Whould you say of God what you know not?
—Qur’an 10:68

Those who say: ‘The Lord of Mercy has begotten a son,’ preach a monstrous falsehood, at which the very heavens might crack, the earth break asunder, and the mountains crumble to dust. That they should ascribe a son to the Merciful, when it does not become the Lord of Mercy to beget one!
—Qur’an 19:88

Surely they lie when they declare: "Allah has begotten children".
—Qur'an 37:151

In what way am I attributing something unto God, that is deserving of an idol, when I call upon him through this prayer?
 

journey

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In what way am I attributing something unto God, that is deserving of an idol, when I call upon him through this prayer?

The True and Living God is a Holy Trinity:

God the Father

God the Son (Jesus Christ)

God the Holy Spirit (Holy Ghost)

Yet the Three are ONE.

You're not praying to the True and Living God.
 

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The True and Living God is a Holy Trinity:

God the Father

God the Son (Jesus Christ)

God the Holy Spirit (Holy Ghost)

Yet the Three are ONE.

You're not praying to the True and Living God.


In what way am I attributing something unto God, that is deserving of an idol, when I call upon him through this prayer?

1. In the Name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful.

2. All the praises and thanks be to Allah, the Lord of the 'Alamin (mankind, jinns and all that exists).

3. The Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful.

4. The Only Owner (and the Only Ruling Judge) of the Day of Recompense (i.e. the Day of Resurrection)

5. You (Alone) we worship, and You (Alone) we ask for help (for each and everything).

6. Guide us to the Straight Way

7. The Way of those on whom You have bestowed Your Grace, not (the way) of those who earned Your Anger , nor of those who went astray .

Amen


How is THIS prayer contradicting the Trinity?
 
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