Biological Taxonomy - Kinds vs. Species (Linnaean taxonomy)

Wick Stick

Well-known member
Wait. Now you're agreeing with me? What happened to them being "tweeners"?
Apparently, I do not fit neatly into the pigeonholes in which you normally stuff people. How inconvenient.

You should talk to people, rather than debating some ideology you have invented.
I don't have any ideology, at least as pertains to creation. My official position on creation is "I don't know exactly how God created the universe, and I'm ok with not knowing."

That being said, I do apply some common sense. When I see someone manufacturing a Rube-Goldberg-esque theological structure, it makes me want to throw wrenches at the gears, and strew random banana peels around on the ground. :chuckle:

There are only people. Anything else is an ape. It's easy to tell a person from anything else.
Apparently, you haven't been to the same clubs that I have. :p

Jarrod
 

Stripe

Teenage Adaptive Ninja Turtle
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Apparently, I do not fit neatly into the pigeonholes in which you normally stuff people. How inconvenient.
What are you blabbering about? :AMR:

I don't have any ideology, at least as pertains to creation. My official position on creation is "I don't know exactly how God created the universe, and I'm ok with not knowing."
Well, gee. The Bible says it was done in "six days."

Bye bye ignorance.

That being said, I do apply some common sense. ... throw wrenches at the gears, and strew random banana peels around on the ground. :chuckle:

That's what you think you're doing? :AMR:
 

Wick Stick

Well-known member
What are you blabbering about?
Preconceptions. You take everyone, and lump them into one of a few broad categories - evolutionist, young-earth creationist, day-age theorist. I am none of those.

Well, gee. The Bible says it was done in "six days."

Bye bye ignorance.
Oh, I'm pretty familiar with what the Bible says. I just don't (fail to) interpret it the way you do.

Jarrod
 

Stripe

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Preconceptions. You take everyone, and lump them into one of a few broad categories.
Nope. I read what you say and respond to it.

And you are an evolutionist.

Oh, I'm pretty familiar with what the Bible says. I just don't (fail to) interpret it the way you do.

Nope. The Bible says "six days." No "interpretation" necessary.
 

George Affleck

TOL Subscriber
http://dukemagazine.duke.edu/article/big-question-can-your-environment-change-your-dna

Apparently DNA is locked in like finger prints for an individual but gene expression can be affected/altered and passed on.

Another article about passing on expression

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/22941276/

Off the top of my head I would have had to agree with Greg. I would not have thought that altered gene expression could be passed on.

Thanks ex for bringing that to our attention. You learn something new every day. :poly:
 

6days

New member
Greg Jennings said:
....a more interesting subject: the Flood.

First I need to know a few details about your personal beliefs about this event.
I believe the flood occurred exactly as stated in Genesis. Perhaps you should start a new thread with your questions unless you are somehow connecting your questions to taxonomy / species/ genetics.*
 

6days

New member
You interpret 6 days literally? Your call, but an interpretation nonetheless.

Nope.... Interpretation is not required. The language is clear.. it allows only one possible meaning. In Hebrew (as in English) when a number is associated with the word 'days', it can only mean one thing...no interpretation required.
Ex. "In 3 days the world will end".
Interpretation. ....whoever said that might be looney tunes, but there is no mistaking what "3 days" means.
 

Stripe

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Evolutionists must demand that words could mean anything, that's the only way they can justify their ideas. When words have meaning and their definitions are adhered to, their ideas are easily exposed.
 

Greg Jennings

New member
I believe the flood occurred exactly as stated in Genesis. Perhaps you should start a new thread with your questions unless you are somehow connecting your questions to taxonomy / species/ genetics.*

It doesn't connect really. So I'll take your advice and start a thread on the topic tomorrow
 

Greg Jennings

New member
Nope.... Interpretation is not required. The language is clear.. it allows only one possible meaning. In Hebrew (as in English) when a number is associated with the word 'days', it can only mean one thing...no interpretation required.
Ex. "In 3 days the world will end".
Interpretation. ....whoever said that might be looney tunes, but there is no mistaking what "3 days" means.

You're welcome to that opinion. But over the past few days I've researched this very topic extensively and most sources I've come across say something along the lines of "most theologians now consider the Genesis days of creation as a way to illustrate the importance of the Sabbath." I don't think you'll find many sources from university scholars and professors that say otherwise.

Can you give me a reason why the "four corners of the Earth" or "stars stuck in the firmament" are not literal according to you but "six days" is? If you would please don't just say "context." Explain in detail what that context is that makes the examples so different from each other
 
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Wick Stick

Well-known member
You take everyone, and lump them into one of a few broad categories.
Nope. I read what you say and respond to it.

And you are an evolutionist.
Says, "I don't do that!" Does it in the very next sentence.

Also, I am not an evolutionist. Try again.

Oh, I'm pretty familiar with what the Bible says. I just don't (fail to) interpret it the way you do.
Nope. The Bible says "six days." No "interpretation" necessary.
A refusal to read anything beyond the base literal meaning, is in itself an interpretation. But by all means keep pretending that it isn't.

Jarrod
 

Stripe

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Can you give me a reason why the "four corners of the Earth" or "stars stuck in the firmament" are not literal according to you but "six days" is?

If you hear the phrase "the four corners of the Earth," what would be your understanding?

The Bible doesn't say the stars were "stuck" in the firmament.
 

George Affleck

TOL Subscriber
You're welcome to that opinion. But over the past few days I've researched this very topic extensively and most sources I've come across say something along the lines of "most theologians now consider the Genesis days of creation as a way to illustrate the importance of the Sabbath." I don't think you'll find many sources from university scholars and professors that say otherwise.

Can you give me a reason why the "four corners of the Earth" or "stars stuck in the firmament" are not literal according to you but "six days" is? If you would please don't just say "context." Explain in detail what that context is that makes the examples so different from each other

"Four corners of the earth"
This is meant in the sense of "extremities". It's an expression in English that we all understand as "the extents of" and is not meant to pinpoint locations but as generalities. We sometimes forget that God inspired authors to produce literature on the subject of redemption which just happens (because God is accurate) to be completely accurate literature. Kanaph generally means extremities, borders or ends. It is like saying "to the ends of the earth". If "cornerstone" was intended, the word pinoh is available.

Not so with "day"; especially when it is spelled out in the specific terms of "morning and evening" and "the next day".

"Stars stuck in the firmament" - can you point me to this verse? I know its there, I just can't find it. Thanks.
 

Greg Jennings

New member
If you hear the phrase "the four corners of the Earth," what would be your understanding?
My understanding is that it means basically "all over the Earth." But I'm not a literalist and my understanding of "six days" is that it's allegorical just like the "four corners." You have stated that "six days" is literal but "four corners" is not. I'm just curious as to what makes one literal in your mind and the other allegorical?

The Bible doesn't say the stars were "stuck" in the firmament.

I was referring to Joshua 10:13 where the sun and moon stood still, indicating that the sun and moon went around the Earth and not the other way around. Do you see this as literal?

I want to apologize to you Stripe for my first comment to you several days ago. You have been very civil in my exchanges with you.
 

Greg Jennings

New member
"Four corners of the earth"
This is meant in the sense of "extremities". It's an expression in English that we all understand as "the extents of" and is not meant to pinpoint locations but as generalities. We sometimes forget that God inspired authors to produce literature on the subject of redemption which just happens (because God is accurate) to be completely accurate literature. Kanaph generally means extremities, borders or ends. It is like saying "to the ends of the earth". If "cornerstone" was intended, the word pinoh is available.

Not so with "day"; especially when it is spelled out in the specific terms of "morning and evening" and "the next day".

"Stars stuck in the firmament" - can you point me to this verse? I know its there, I just can't find it. Thanks.

I don't know if "stars in the firmament" is there or not. I was referring to Joshua 10:13 and got a little mixed up on my terminology. That being said, it is well known that early Jewish people thought that the stars along with the sun and moon were stuck in the dome of the sky that was thought to exist, and that these things moved across the sky.

There is a problem with your explanation of why day is literal. Morning and evening have always meant "when the sun rises" and "when the sun sets." In Genesis the first few "days" occur prior to the existence of the sun. So how could there be a morning or evening?
 
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6days

New member
Greg Jennings said:
6days said:
*Posted by 6days* View Post
Nope.... Interpretation is not required. The language is clear.. it allows only one possible meaning. In Hebrew (as in English) when a number is associated with the word 'days', it can only mean one thing...no interpretation required.
You're welcome to that opinion.
Thank you.
Am I also welcome to my opinion that the earth is not flat?

Greg Jennings said:
But over the past few days I've researched this very topic extensively and most sources I've come across say something along the lines of "most theologians now consider the Genesis days of creation as a way to illustrate the importance of the Sabbath." I don't think you'll find many sources from university scholars and professors that say otherwise.
Greg....
*Its easy to find people who want to prove the Bible wrong, or find people who claim to believe it but are willing to compromise it with secular ideas. But, as I said above, the Hebrew language and context does not allow for longer periods of time.*

Yom (Hebrew *for 'day') has the same variety of meaning that 'day' does in English. Its easy to determine the meaning by the context.
For ex... 'In my fathers day, it took 3 days of fishing during the day to fill the boat.'
The word is used 3 times with 3 different meanings in one sentence....yet, its easy to understand the meanings because of context. In fact, God even defined the word to make it easy for us.*
Gen. 1:5 God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night." And there was evening, and there was morning--the first day

A Hebrew Scholar who does not believe Genesis explains...
James Barr, Professor of Hebrew Bible at Vanderbilt University, former Regius Professor of Hebrew at Oxford.
"Probably, so far as I know, there is no professor of Hebrew or Old Testament at any world-class university who does not believe that the writer(s) of Genesis 1-11 intended to convey to their readers the ideas that (a) creation took place in a series of six days which were the same as the days of 24 hours we now experience; .. Or, to put it negatively, the apologetic arguments which suppose the "days" of creation to be long eras of time, the figures of years not to be chronological, and the flood to be a merely local Mesopotamian flood, are not taken seriously by any such professors, as far as I know.".

A Theologian *explains
Dr Peter Barnes, lecturer in church history at the Presbyterian Theological Centre in Sydney. He wrote: “…if God wanted us to understand the creation week as a literal week, He could hardly have made the point any clearer…. The theological argument is also compelling. According to the Bible, there was no death until there was sin. The creation is cursed only after Adam sinned (cf. Genesis 3; Romans 5:12–21; 8:19–25). This implies that all the fossils of dead animals must date from after Adam’s fall. If there was blood and violence in the creation before Adam sinned, the theological structure of the biblical message would appear to suffer considerable dislocation"


A Christian Apologist Answers
Joe Boot, President of Ezra Institute for Contemporary Christianity
“Since the doctrines of Creation, the Fall and Redemption stand in an absolute historical continuum, we get a distorted worldview when we play games with Genesis.

“The apologist seeks to present biblical truth with coherence. In my experience, one cannot even formulate a compelling response to classic questions like the problem of evil and pain without a clear stand with Scripture on the creation issue.

“I have never been able to see how anyone who wants to defend the faith and proclaim the Gospel can compromise the foundation stones of that defence and then expect clear-thinking people to find a proclamation of salvation in Christ compelling.”

A Prof / PhD Biblical Studies Answers
Dr. Tom Wang says "Often, people will use the old argument that we should concentrate on preaching the Gospel, rather than get distracted by ‘side-issues’ such as Creation. But if we cannot believe the record of Creation, then why believe the record of the New Creation (‘if anyone is in Christ, he is a New Creation; the old is gone, the new has come’—2 Corinthians 5:17)?”

An Historian Answers (Prof with 2 PhD's)
Dr Benno Zuiddam“God created this world in a very short period of time, under ten thousand years ago. Whether you read Irenaeus in the 2nd*century, Basil in the 4th, Augustine in the 5th, Thomas Aquinas in the 13th, the Reformers of the 16th*century, or Pope Pius X in the 19th, they all teach this. They all believed in a good creation and God’s curse striking the earth—and the whole creation—after the disobedience of a literal Adam and Eve.”

A Biologist Answers
Dr Georgia Purdom says "many Christians have compromised on the historical and theological importance of Genesis. If Adam and Eve aren’t real people who sinned in the Garden of Eden, and as a result we are all not sinners, then Jesus Christ’s death on the cross was useless. ...the*literal truth of Genesis is so important to the authority and truthfulness of Scripture. It is the very foundation of the Gospel."

Our Creator Answers
JESUS speaking*"Haven't you read the Scriptures?They record that from the beginning 'God made them male and female.'"

Greg Jennings said:
Can you give me a reason why the "four corners of the Earth" or "stars stuck in the firmament" are not literal according to you but "six days" is?

Your question is mostly answered above. But let me ask you a question.... if you listen to the weather report telling you the temperature was 10 degrees when the sun rose this morning; can you give me a reason why you believe the temperature, but don't believe the sun really rose?*



*
 

Stripe

Teenage Adaptive Ninja Turtle
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My understanding is that it means basically "all over the Earth." But I'm not a literalist.
And neither are we. We ask that the plain meaning be respected. The Bible says "six days." That plainly means that creation took a week. There is nothing that ties us to believing that everything must be read "literally," which would clearly be ridiculous.

I was referring to Joshua 10:13 where the sun and moon stood still, indicating that the sun and moon went around the Earth and not the other way around. Do you see this as literal?
The sun rises and sets. We are not tied to "literalism," we respect the plain meaning.
 

Greg Jennings

New member
And neither are we. We ask that the plain meaning be respected. The Bible says "six days." That plainly means that creation took a week. There is nothing that ties us to believing that everything must be read "literally," which would clearly be ridiculous.


The sun rises and sets. We are not tied to "literalism," we respect the plain meaning.

Maybe I haven't been clear enough in what I am asking you for. I want you to explain to me how you can tell that "six days" is literal and the other examples are not. If the only reason that you don't believe in geocentrism is that science shows that the Earth revolves around the sun, then it would only be reasonable for you to believe in an Earth far older than 6000 years for the very same reason.

So what is the difference in language between Genesis 1-2 and Joshua 10 that makes the former literal and the latter allegorical?
 
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