Biological Taxonomy - Kinds vs. Species (Linnaean taxonomy)

Greg Jennings

New member
Greg.... it was something I posted previously. *The quote within my post is on the last sentence of the article.*
ok


A perfect Creator, created humans to live forever...and we will. (Obviously not in current body) However God cursed creation, physical death entered the world.*
That's not evidence. But I think you're aware of that.



It certainly is not because our genome is improving, but instead due to improved medicine. Geneticists recognize genetic burden is increasing....
You're dead on about medicine. But why are less intelligent individuals creating advanced medicines if Adam and his immediate kin were so much smarter? If they'd had good medicines, they should have been able to live for many thousands of years according to your theory, right?

Natural selection is incapable of removing the 100+ additional mutations added to our genome with each successive generation.
Do you have a citation for this?
 
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Greg Jennings

New member
Only evolutionists think they were "tweeners". Science proved the evolutionists wrong.

What would you consider Homo habilis, Homo erectus, Homo ergaster, and the many other hominid species that appear to show transitional stages in human lineage? Aren't they "tweeners?"
 

6days

New member
Apparently YEC has nuanced itself somewhat, because the last time I had discussions about this, the YEC people were telling me that homo-anything-but-sapiens didn't really exist, and that it was just the result of some scientists with an agenda putting bones together wrong.
Jarrod
God's Word tells us that He created the animals, then He formed man from the dust, and woman from mans rib. So what Biblical creationists may have told you is that there is nothing in between animals and humans.....its an anti-biblical / anti-gospel belief.
Neandertals would be a distinct people group as are pygmies. They are descendants of Adam..... we are descendants of Neandertals.
The science is consistent with God's Word, and proved the evolutionist beliefs false.
 

6days

New member
Greg Jennings said:
6days said:
A perfect Creator, created humans to live forever...and we will. (Obviously not in current body) However God cursed creation, physical death entered the world.
That's not evidence. But I think you're aware of that.
God's Word IS evidence.

Greg Jennings said:
6days said:
It certainly is not because our genome is improving, but instead due to improved medicine. Geneticists recognize genetic burden is increasing....
You're dead on about medicine. But why are less intelligent individuals creating advanced medicines if Adam and his immediate kin were so much smarter? If they'd had good medicines, they should have been able to live for many thousands of years according to your theory, right?
God's Word is correct that knowledge will increase.

His Word is consistent with evidence. We have a genome...a information system that is slowly becoming corrupted. Like Bill Gates said....“DNA is like a computer program but far, far more advanced than any software ever created.”

Greg Jennings said:
6days said:
Natural selection is incapable of removing the 100+ additional mutations added to our genome with each successive generation.
Do you have a citation for this?
Geneticists often make remarks such as ...
"It seems clear that for the past few centuries harmful mutationshave been accumulating...the decrease in viability from mutation accumulation is some 1-2% per generation"
Crow in PNAS

or
"the total number of new mutations per diploid human genome per generation is about 100...at least 10% of these are deleterious...Analysis of human variability suggests a normal person carries thousands of deleterious alleles"
Kondrashov in 'Human Mutation'
 

George Affleck

TOL Subscriber
You're dead on about medicine. But why are less intelligent individuals creating advanced medicines if Adam and his immediate kin were so much smarter?

:mock: evolutionists

Duh...I dunno Greg...maybe its cuz wee needs to... and he dint?...eh?!

(Sorry - couldn't resist - GA)
 

Greg Jennings

New member
God's Word IS evidence.
Not scientific evidence, no. Why is it more reliable than the Koran?


God's Word is correct that knowledge will increase.

His Word is consistent with evidence. We have a genome...a information system that is slowly becoming corrupted. Like Bill Gates said....“DNA is like a computer program but far, far more advanced than any software ever created.”
You didn't really respond to the questions you quoted from me in your response here.

Geneticists often make remarks such as ...
"It seems clear that for the past few centuries harmful mutationshave been accumulating...the decrease in viability from mutation accumulation is some 1-2% per generation"
Crow in PNAS

or
"the total number of new mutations per diploid human genome per generation is about 100...at least 10% of these are deleterious...Analysis of human variability suggests a normal person carries thousands of deleterious alleles"
Kondrashov in 'Human Mutation'

"In general, the mutation rate in unicellular eukaryotes and bacteria is roughly 0.003 mutations per genome per cell generation. This means that a human genome accumulates around 1-2 new mutations per generation because each full generation involves a number of cell divisions to generate gametes."
From https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutation_rate and originally from
http://www.genetics.org/cgi/content/full/148/4/1667

That seems to dispute your claim of 100 new mutations per generation. But let's say your number is absolutely correct. This journal disputes your claim that humans are hopelessly declining. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3276617/#!po=4.74138

From Rates and Fitness Consequences of New Mutations in Humans by Peter D. Keightley (professor of evolutionary genetics Institute of Evolutionary biology in the School of Biological Sciences at the University of Edinburgh):

"On the basis of a method proposed by Kondrashov and Crow, the genome-wide deleterious mutation rate (U) can be estimated from the product of the number of nucleotide sites in the genome, μ, and the mean selective constraint per site. Although the presence of many weakly selected mutations in human noncoding DNA makes this approach somewhat problematic, estimates are U ≈ 2.2 for the whole diploid genome per generation and ∼0.35 for mutations that change an amino acid of a protein-coding gene. A genome-wide deleterious mutation rate of 2.2 seems higher than humans could tolerate if natural selection is “hard,” but could be tolerated if selection acts on relative fitness differences between individuals or if there is synergistic epistasis. I argue that in the foreseeable future, an accumulation of new deleterious mutations is unlikely to lead to a detectable decline in fitness of human populations. FOR some time, it has been thought that each newborn human has many tens of new mutations that appeared in its mother’s or father’s germline. This extraordinarily high genomic rate of mutation includes a small fraction of advantageous mutations that have fueled the evolution of our species and that are the basis of ongoing adaptive evolution. The input of new variation brings along with it mutations that cause Mendelian genetic disease, kept at low frequencies by natural selection, and a burden of less harmful mutations that presumably maintain genetic variation in susceptibility to complex diseases."

From the conclusion: "Finally, a change in mean fitness could be inconsequential if selection is soft (for example, it might not matter if everyone becomes 5% less sexually attractive). The above considerations lead to doubts about whether deleterious mutation accumulation will produce a detectable fitness loss in humans in the foreseeable future. Less speculative, perhaps, is the existence of finite global energy, food, and water resources. Coupled with expanding human populations, these factors may intensify competition and lead to stronger natural selection in years to come."
 

6days

New member
No need to apologize friend. Why do we need to any more than Adam? Did he not want to survive longer just as we strive to do?
Ha... I think you need to slow down and think.
If Adam had a genome that accumulated a few mutations over 900 years..... he wouldn't have been studying medicine. Our bodies have thousands of mutations... genetic burden increases with each generation. We NEED modern medicine to survive.

I will reply to your post on genetics later tomorrow. Keightley also recognizes the problem but is suggesting a possible explanation as to why humanity exists with the high mutation rate. That high mutation rate, and the fact we still exist as a species is totally compatible with God's Word and a young creation.
 

Stripe

Teenage Adaptive Ninja Turtle
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
No argument here.
Wait. Now you're agreeing with me? What happened to them being "tweeners"?

I haven't really talked to any YEC adherents in a decade or so.
So? :AMR:

Apparently YEC has nuanced itself somewhat.
You should talk to people, rather than debating some ideology you have invented.

YEC people were telling me that homo-anything-but-sapiens didn't really exist, and that it was just the result of some scientists with an agenda putting bones together wrong.
There are only people. Anything else is an ape. It's easy to tell a person from anything else.
 

exminister

Well-known member
How do we know what crocodiles looked like before sin?

Any croc-selfies around?

Per a conversation I had with 6Days from creation to fall was a very short period of time. Most believe that and it surely reads that way. Adam and Eve had no children before the fall. So since it was so short a period the animals may have well been created just as we see them today. Certainly any animal created would not have died before the fall. But would have died afterwards and could potentially be fossilized.

Dependency on meat eating may have been unnecessary before the fall since it was a short period. God who fore knew man would sin could have created canines.

The other option which I don't see as Biblical is God reforming animals to be canine.
 

exminister

Well-known member
Ha... I think you need to slow down and think.
If Adam had a genome that accumulated a few mutations over 900 years..... he wouldn't have been studying medicine. Our bodies have thousands of mutations... genetic burden increases with each generation. We NEED modern medicine to survive.

I will reply to your post on genetics later tomorrow. Keightley also recognizes the problem but is suggesting a possible explanation as to why humanity exists with the high mutation rate. That high mutation rate, and the fact we still exist as a species is totally compatible with God's Word and a young creation.

6,
Are you saying an individual can accumulate mutations over the course of a lifetime? I understood it to be mutations happened only when a new individual is being formed. I think our DNA stays the same in our lifetime.

By the way I am enjoying the dialog between you guys (at least those who are respectful. This drew me to ToL to begin with)
 

exminister

Well-known member
Interesting link, George.
I was mostly thinking of intelligence from a Biblical perspective that God would have created Adam with great intelligence.
But even from a science perspective it makes sense that genetic burden also effects our brains and intelligence.
Here is something I previously posted...
"Science continues to confirm the Genesis account of creation and sin. Every since sin entered the world, humans have increasingly become weaker as mutations pile up in our genes. Where as we were created perfect, we now have thousands of diseases we are subject to. Increasingly, humans are becoming more susceptible to allergies and sickness. And now scientists tell us that our brains have shrunk by 10%. Intelligence is not solely related to brain size, but it is a factor. This article tells us that "Surprisingly, based on skull measurements, the human brain appears to have been shrinking over the last 5,000 or so years."
http://www.livescience.com/history/091113-origins-evolving.html

Also adding to our disease is pollution. The allergies / cancers are coming from these. I think both creation and evolution adherents can't agree the air and water were far better before the industrial revolution. Knowledge increasing without wisdom has its downsides.
 

6days

New member
6,
Are you saying an individual can accumulate mutations over the course of a lifetime? I understood it to be mutations happened only when a new individual is being formed. I think our DNA stays the same in our lifetime.

By the way I am enjoying the dialog between you guys (at least those who are respectful. This drew me to ToL to begin with)
Can't we get mutations from exrays and excessive sunlight?
 

Greg Jennings

New member
Can't we get mutations from exrays and excessive sunlight?

Yes. They can affect the DNA of individual cells in the body. Melanoma (skin cancer) is almost always due to UV radiation. But this isn't the kind of mutation that you can pass on to the next generation. It's contained only within skin cells.

Mutations acquired during one's life after birth cannot be passed down to offspring. The kinds of mutations associated with evolutionary theory occur during the period between conception and birth
 
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6days

New member
Greg Jennings said:
That seems to dispute your claim of 100 new mutations per generation. But let's say your number is absolutely correct. This journal disputes your claim that humans are hopelessly declining. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...7/#!po=4.74138
I don't think so.

Geneticists since the time of Haldane and Mueller in the 50's have been concerned about the downward trend in fitness, and the increasing amount of genetic problems. Secular geneticists have introduced several models hoping to explain how humans have survived long ages when evidence points otherwise. (hypothesis such as multiplicative, additive, and Mueller neutral mutation random drift, etc) .

A few examples of evolutionists admitting the genetic burden problem.....

H.J.Mueller in 'Human Genetics' (Our load of Mutations). 1950 "it becomes perfectly clear that the present number of children per couple can not be great enough to allow selection to keep pace with a mutation rate of .01..... the present genetic load is a serious one"

in 1986, J.V.Neel in PNAS (The Rate with which spontaneous mutation alters the electrophoretic mobility of polypeptides) " The implications of mutations of this magnitude (30 per generation) for population genetics and evolutionary theory are profound....The question of how our species accommodates such mutation rates is central to evolutionary thought"

In 1995, A.S.Kondrashov in Theor.Biol. ( Contamination of the genome by very slightly deleterious mutations: Whty we have not died 100 times over). In this article he quotes Lande and Lynnch in 1994 saying "VSDMs can rapidly drive the population to extinction" . He says "I interpret the results in terms of the whole genome and show, in agreement with Tachida that VSDMs can cause too high a mutation load"
{Keep in mind..... They are only talking about VSDMs, which are the vast majority of all mutations. Mutations considered deleterious that are fixed in the genome with each generation are likely about 3+ ... added to genetic load)}

In 2002 in Human Mutation, (Direct estimates of human per nucleotide mutation rates at 20 locicausing Mendellian diseases) "The total number of mutations per diploid human genome per generation is about 100...atleast 10% of these are deleterious...analysis of human variability suggests that a normalperson carries thousands of deleterious alleles".
{Keep in mind... This was before the ENCODE results showing function in what evolutionists thought was 'Junk DNA'. If we consider mutations in the non coding regions of our DNA, we may have 300+ mutations added to our genome with each generation)

in 2000, Nachman and Crowell, in Genetics (Estimate of the mutation rate per nucleotide in humans) estimated 175 mutations per generation "The high deleterious mutation rate in humans presents a paradox. ..."
{Reminder...the estimate of 175 mutations is only in the coding region of our DNA. The actual number would be much higher).

In 1999, A.Walker and P.Keightly in Nature ( High genomic deleterious rates in hominoids) "Under conservative assumptions, we estimate that an average of 4.2 amino acid altering mutations per diploid per generation have occurred in the human lineage...
...it is difficult to explain how human populations could have survived..... Deleterious mutation rates appears to be so high in humans and our close relatives that it is doubtful that such a species could survive..."
[ It is easy to explain how humans survived 6,000 years. Evolutionists have difficulty with their long ages]

One more... In 1997, J.F.Crow in PNAS 'The High Spontaneous Mutation Rate' " It seems clear that for the past few centuries harmful mutations have been accumulating...the decrease in viability from mutation accumulation is some 1-2% per generation......I do regard mutation accumulation as a problem. It is something like the population bomb but with a much longer fuse"
 

Greg Jennings

New member
I don't think so.

Geneticists since the time of Haldane and Mueller in the 50's have been concerned about the downward trend in fitness, and the increasing amount of genetic problems. Secular geneticists have introduced several models hoping to explain how humans have survived long ages when evidence points otherwise. (hypothesis such as multiplicative, additive, and Mueller neutral mutation random drift, etc) .

A few examples of evolutionists admitting the genetic burden problem.....

H.J.Mueller in 'Human Genetics' (Our load of Mutations). 1950 "it becomes perfectly clear that the present number of children per couple can not be great enough to allow selection to keep pace with a mutation rate of .01..... the present genetic load is a serious one"

in 1986, J.V.Neel in PNAS (The Rate with which spontaneous mutation alters the electrophoretic mobility of polypeptides) " The implications of mutations of this magnitude (30 per generation) for population genetics and evolutionary theory are profound....The question of how our species accommodates such mutation rates is central to evolutionary thought"

In 1995, A.S.Kondrashov in Theor.Biol. ( Contamination of the genome by very slightly deleterious mutations: Whty we have not died 100 times over). In this article he quotes Lande and Lynnch in 1994 saying "VSDMs can rapidly drive the population to extinction" . He says "I interpret the results in terms of the whole genome and show, in agreement with Tachida that VSDMs can cause too high a mutation load"
{Keep in mind..... They are only talking about VSDMs, which are the vast majority of all mutations. Mutations considered deleterious that are fixed in the genome with each generation are likely about 3+ ... added to genetic load)}

In 2002 in Human Mutation, (Direct estimates of human per nucleotide mutation rates at 20 locicausing Mendellian diseases) "The total number of mutations per diploid human genome per generation is about 100...atleast 10% of these are deleterious...analysis of human variability suggests that a normalperson carries thousands of deleterious alleles".
{Keep in mind... This was before the ENCODE results showing function in what evolutionists thought was 'Junk DNA'. If we consider mutations in the non coding regions of our DNA, we may have 300+ mutations added to our genome with each generation)

in 2000, Nachman and Crowell, in Genetics (Estimate of the mutation rate per nucleotide in humans) estimated 175 mutations per generation "The high deleterious mutation rate in humans presents a paradox. ..."
{Reminder...the estimate of 175 mutations is only in the coding region of our DNA. The actual number would be much higher).

In 1999, A.Walker and P.Keightly in Nature ( High genomic deleterious rates in hominoids) "Under conservative assumptions, we estimate that an average of 4.2 amino acid altering mutations per diploid per generation have occurred in the human lineage...
...it is difficult to explain how human populations could have survived..... Deleterious mutation rates appears to be so high in humans and our close relatives that it is doubtful that such a species could survive..."
[ It is easy to explain how humans survived 6,000 years. Evolutionists have difficulty with their long ages]

One more... In 1997, J.F.Crow in PNAS 'The High Spontaneous Mutation Rate' " It seems clear that for the past few centuries harmful mutations have been accumulating...the decrease in viability from mutation accumulation is some 1-2% per generation......I do regard mutation accumulation as a problem. It is something like the population bomb but with a much longer fuse"

Well we both have sources that agree that humans have been gathering mutations but differ on how much and how often. We can come back to this at some point in the future but for now I'm willing to agree to disagree in order to move on to (for me) a more interesting subject: the Flood.

First I need to know a few details about your personal beliefs about this event.

1. What animals were excluded from the ark? I need to know if you think all dinosaurs and other older forms of life were aboard the ark along with modern species

2. Do you think this was a global or a regional flood?
 

exminister

Well-known member
Yes. They can affect the DNA of individual cells in the body. Melanoma (skin cancer) is almost always due to UV radiation. But this isn't the kind of mutation that you can pass on to the next generation. It's contained only within skin cells.

Mutations acquired during one's life after birth cannot be passed down to offspring. The kinds of mutations associated with evolutionary theory occur during the period between conception and birth

http://dukemagazine.duke.edu/article/big-question-can-your-environment-change-your-dna
While the sequence of DNA may not be affected by your environment, the way genes work—called gene expression—can. Think of DNA as a computer’s hardware; there may be several types of softwareprograms that can regulate what the hardware does. Epigenetics is the study of heritable changes in gene expression that don’t involve changing the underlying DNA—effectively, software changes that cause alterations in gene function.

Environmental factors such as food, drugs, or exposure to toxins can cause epigenetic changes by altering the way molecules bind to DNA or changing the structure of proteins that DNA wraps around. These structural changes can result in slight changes in gene activity; they also can produce more dramatic changes by switching genes on when they should be off or vice versa.

These changes are heritable, meaning they can be passed on from parent cell to daughter cell within the body, and from parent to child. An extraordinary study of survivors of the Dutch famine during World War II, for example, has shown that the effect of epigenetic changes caused by hunger don’t show up in the survivors’ children, but they do in their children’s children. This perhaps suggests the adage should not merely be, “You are what you eat,” but also, “You are what your grandparents ate.”
Apparently DNA is locked in like finger prints for an individual but gene expression can be affected/altered and passed on.

Another article about passing on expression

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/22941276/
 
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