BATTLE TALK ~ BRX (rounds 1 thru 3)

[Z Man]

Now you must resort to lying about people's posts that you yourself are quoting? We certainly don't have to go far to see the proof of your dishonesty.

You believe God foreordained everything, do you not? Don't tell us that you're a "sleeper" Arminian like E4E turned out to be. LOL

So, if you believe God foreordained that thousands of men would rape thousands of baby girls... then be a man and say so. Step up to the plate, muchacho. If you can't even do that, I have no respect for ya.

When I say God predestined or causes calamity, the men and women who are involved with such acts are still responsible. That's where we talk past one another, because for some reason, when I say God predestined this or that, you take it to mean that God Himself committed the act, which is not the case.

 

[RightIdea]

When I say God predestined or causes calamity, the men and women who are involved with such acts are still responsible. That's where we talk past one another, because for some reason, when I say God predestined this or that, you take it to mean that God Himself committed the act, which is not the case.

You're the one reading into what I said, not vice versa. I know you believe the people were culpable. I know God didn't commit the act personally.

I said a very specific thing, and you are acting like the champion dodgeball player you are.

You want us to believe God predestined/foreordained thousands of men to rape thousands of beautiful and precious baby girls. Say it. Get it over with. Like a bandaid, just rip it off real quick, it'll hurt less.

 

[Z Man]

You're the one reading into what I said, not vice versa. I know you believe the people were culpable. I know God didn't commit the act personally.

Then if you agree with me, what's all this fuss about?

I said a very specific thing, and you are acting like the champion dodgeball player you are.

You want us to believe God predestined/foreordained thousands of men to rape thousands of beautiful and precious baby girls. Say it. Get it over with. Like a bandaid, just rip it off real quick, it'll hurt less.

Of course He did. Nothing is out of His control. I get comfort from knowing that God is wiser than me, and believe that He is working towards a greater good. What comfort do you get from such an atrocity? Does God say to the families, "Oops. Couldn't stop them. It would of violated their freewill"? In your point of view, why would God allow such an aweful event if He had the power to stop it?

 

[RightIdea]

Then if you agree with me, what's all this fuss about?

Of course He did. Nothing is out of His control. I get comfort from knowing that God is wiser than me, and believe that He is working towards a greater good. What comfort do you get from such an atrocity? Does God say to the families, "Oops. Couldn't stop them. It would of violated their freewill"? In your point of view, why would God allow such an aweful event if He had the power to stop it?

Thanks. That's all I wanted to hear.


You heard it here, folks. God is working toward a greater good by predestining thousands of men to gang rape little baby girls. This is the Christian God? You be the judge, for a righteous man judges all things.


Why do I believe God allows it? (Which is a far cry from predestining it!)

The short answer is that it is the price for having a free will relationship with humanity. We must have genuine choices and an ability to actually choose one or the other. And what difference would it make to give us free will without free action? Just sitting in our paralyzed bodies, willing wickedness but unable to act? Pointless. He allows, but He doesn't will for it to happen at all! God's intention was for mankind to never fall into sin in the first place. Plan A was no fall at all! Plan B was to rescue man from the consequences of his free will decision to rebel. He doesn't will for sin to happen. But the possibility must be allowed for a free relationship.

I happen to know that Bob is going to cover this in his very next post. And so, I am going to defer any further answer to his explanation, because it is much more eloquent and effective than I can provide.

So, stay tuned, and you'll have an even better answer in a couple days, courtesy of Bob.

 

[Z Man]

Thanks. That's all I wanted to hear.


You heard it here, folks. God is working toward a greater good by predestining thousands of men to gang rape little baby girls. This is the Christian God? You be the judge, for a righteous man judges all things.

God "works all things after the counsel of his will" (Ephesians 1:11).

This "all things" includes:

• the fall of sparrows (Matthew 10:29)

• the rolling of dice (Proverbs 16:33)

• the slaughter of his people (Psalm 44:11)

• the decisions of kings (Proverbs 21:1)

• the failing of sight (Exodus 4:11)

• the sickness of children (2 Samuel 12:15)

• the loss and gain of money (1 Samuel 2:7)

• the suffering of saints (1 Peter 4:19)

• the completion of travel plans (James 4:15)

• the persecution of Christians (Hebrews 12:4-7)

• the repentance of souls (2 Timothy 2:25)

• the gift of faith (Philippians 1:29)

• the pursuit of holiness (Philippians 3:12-13)

• the growth of believers (Hebrews 6:3)

• the giving of life and the taking in death (1 Samuel 2:6)

• and the crucifixion of his Son (Acts 4:27-28)

.

From the smallest thing to the greatest thing, good and evil, happy and sad, pagan and Christian, pain and pleasure - God governs them all for his wise and just and good purposes (Isaiah 46:10). Lest we miss the point, the Bible speaks most clearly to this in the most painful situations. Amos asks, in time of disaster, "If a calamity occurs in a city has not the LORD done it?" (Amos 3:6). After losing all ten of his children in the collapse of his son's house, Job says, "The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away. Blessed be the name of the LORD" (Job 1:21). After being covered with boils he says, "Shall we indeed accept good from God and not accept adversity?" (Job 2:10).

Why do I believe God allows it? (Which is a far cry from predestining it!) You know, I am going to look like a hypocrite and apologize for that appearance, but I happen to know that Bob is going to cover this in his very next post. And so, I am going to defer to his explanation, because it is much more eloquent and effective than I can provide.

So, stay tuned, and you'll have my answer in a couple days, courtesy of Bob.

You put too much faith in Bob, and not enough faith in God's Word.

 

[RightIdea]

It's not faith. Bob's a friend of mine. I know what he's going to say about that. LOL

As for Ephesians 1:11, you can be forgiven for that, since you're not aware of that mistranslation, obviously. Although if you look at the context, you can see it even without knowing what the Greek is, there!

Let's look at what Paul wrote:

Ephesians 1:7-11
In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, 9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.

What is Paul talking about, here? Z, if you're right, then you're implying universalism here. Because in verse 10, that same "all things" is gathered into Christ! Whoa now! Surely you don't suggest that all people (and even things) are "in Christ???"

In Him also we have obtained an inheritance! We who? We the BODY OF CHRIST.

But the Greek answers this conundrum. In the Greek, Paul often says simply "all things." But here, Paul differentiates and refers to a proper noun that he calls "the all things." Or perhaps more properly, The All Things. And "The All Things" isn't the same as just "all things." Because this "The All Things" refers to those who are in Christ, who receive our blessed inheritance! "We who trusted in Christ!" That is the "The All Things" in this passage.

And amen! Our Lord certainly does "works The All Things (the body of Christ) after the counsel of his will!" Because He has given us His Spirit to guide us! It doesn't mean we hae no free will. It means we're new creations and He works in us and through us and with us! Co-workers with us!

Paul speaks like this in Colossians 1 as well, friend. Let's go there... Paul here makes both kinds of references, to "all things" and to "The All Things." The ones that I'm going to bold are the latter, the references to the body of Christ.

1 Colossians 1:13-18
He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, 14 in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him The All Things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence. 19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, 20 and by Him to reconcile The All Things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

Who is he speaking of in verse 18 and 14? Those who have redemption through His blood! That's not everyone, that isn't a universal "all things." So then, Paul continues...

Are all things "in Christ?" Verse 17 says "The All Things" are in Christ. Not a universal all things. Now, did Christ create literally all things? Indeed He presided over creation, yes. And He is before all things. But in Him, only the Body of Christ consists. For He is the head of the body, the church...

It pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell? Amen, literally all. But then... by Him to reconcile all things? Literally all things? Z, are sinners reconciled to God? Nay, brother! They are not! And what do you know, sure enough, here Paul again says "The All Things." Confirming exactly what I said about Ephesians.

The All Things refers to those who are in Christ in Col. 1:17, and to to those who are reconciled to Him in verse 1:20. Whereas the plain "all things" refers to what Christ created, and regular "all" refers to how much godhood Christ possesses.

The same holds true for Ephesians 1:11, friend.

"In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works The All Things according to the counsel of His will, ..."

 

[sentientsynth]

ALL

pa'ß Pas

pas (Adjective)

Definition

1. individually
1. each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything
2. collectively
1. some of all types

... "the whole world has gone after him" Did all the world go afterChrist? "then went all Judea, and were baptized of him in Jordan."Was all Judea, or all Jerusalem, baptized in Jordan? "Ye are of God,little children", and the whole world lieth in the wicked one". Doesthe whole world there mean everybody? The words "world" and "all" areused in some seven or eight senses in Scripture, and it is veryrarely the "all" means all persons, taken individually. The words aregenerally used to signify that Christ has redeemed some of all sorts-- some Jews, some Gentiles, some rich, some poor, and has notrestricted His redemption to either Jew or Gentile ...

SS

Source

 

[Delmar]

When I say God predestined or causes calamity, the men and women who are involved with such acts are still responsible. That's where we talk past one another, because for some reason, when I say God predestined this or that, you take it to mean that God Himself committed the act, which is not the case.

Not at all! I take it the way the law takes hiring a hit man. If one orders the job done and the other carries it out both bear the guilt. The difference between you and I is that I don't believe God ordered the job done and you keep saying that he did!

 

[Clete]

Not at all! I take it the way the law takes hiring a hit man. If one orders the job done and the other carries it out both bear the guilt. The difference between you and I is that I don't believe God ordered the job done and you keep saying that he did!

POTD :first:

 

[Rimi]

Thanks for the news flash. But I can tell you, it doesn't change a thing.

Great Zboy. You hold that God condones rape. I pity you.

 

[Rimi]

Then if you agree with me, what's all this fuss about?

Of course He did. Nothing is out of His control. I get comfort from knowing that God is wiser than me, and believe that He is working towards a greater good. What comfort do you get from such an atrocity? Does God say to the families, "Oops. Couldn't stop them. It would of violated their freewill"? In your point of view, why would God allow such an aweful event if He had the power to stop it?

Why would God allow such an aweful event . . . . it probably never occurred to Him that man could be so evil and rotten, God being holy and all that. But He did give free will. It's a risk He took.

Edited to add: Zboy, per you God WANTED it to happen. Per thinking Christians, God only allows this evil as a price for giving free will. He didn't want it. He wants us to be like Him, holy. But you believe He WANTS babies raped for His greater glory. That's pretty sick of you.

 

[Z Man]

It's not faith. Bob's a friend of mine. I know what he's going to say about that. LOL

Well why don't you tell us? I want to hear what you think about God allowing rape to occur, when He has the power to stop it. What kind of hope and trust can the parents find in a God who sits back and allows it to happen for no reason at all? God can't see the future, in your view, so how does a baby rape fit into His plan (if He even has a plan)? Does God comfort the family by telling them, 'Oops'?

The fact that you do not have an answer for this until Bob gives you one tells me that you are lost without Bob. You have believed everything he has ever said. If it comes from Bob's mouth, it's immediately truth to you, without even the slightest idea to compare or research Bob's teachings with what the Word of God says. I'm willing to bet if Bob said that pink aliens are coming from Pluto to kill all sinners, you'd believe him!

As for Ephesians 1:11, you can be forgiven for that, since you're not aware of that mistranslation, obviously. Although if you look at the context, you can see it even without knowing what the Greek is, there!

Let's look at what Paul wrote:



What is Paul talking about, here? Z, if you're right, then you're implying universalism here. Because in verse 10, that same "all things" is gathered into Christ! Whoa now! Surely you don't suggest that all people (and even things) are "in Christ???"

Your ideas on the translation of Ephesians 1:11 are very confusing. You dedicated a whole paragraph to try and pursuade us that 'all things' spoken of in v.11 means only the Body of Christ. I don't buy it. I could give my reasons, but I don't think it will do anything to advance this debate. You can believe that hogwash description you just gave me, but for me, I'll just believe what God's Word says. It seems simple enough to me without having to give the phrase 'all things' a totally new definition.

And besides, you got so caught up in trying to disprove Eph. 1:11 that you failed to mention anything about the rest of the Scriptures I posted, which show God at work in certain tragedies of life. What are thoughts regarding Amos 3:6 and Job 2:10?

 

[Z Man]

Not at all! I take it the way the law takes hiring a hit man. If one orders the job done and the other carries it out both bear the guilt. The difference between you and I is that I don't believe God ordered the job done and you keep saying that he did!

I've backed my ideas up with Scripture. Where's yours?

 

[Z Man]

Great Zboy. You hold that God condones rape. I pity you.

I never said God condones rape. Don't slander people by lying about them. It's rude.

Why would God allow such an aweful event . . . . it probably never occurred to Him that man could be so evil and rotten, God being holy and all that. But He did give free will. It's a risk He took.

From God, to the parents whose baby was raped:

"Oops. I'm really sorry about that. But, there was nothing I could do to prevent it. I can't infringe upon man's freewill. You'll just have to live with that."

What kind of hope can they have in a God who has no control, or no plan?

In my view, I would have hope that God knows all, and His view is eternal, compared to my limited 'NOW' view. I believe God has a bigger plan, and that even though we may endure suffering and tribulations now, it is all being worked out for a greater good in the end. I can believe this because I believe, by the proof of Scripture, that God sees all and knows all (including the future), and that He works all things out for a greater good; mainly that He be glorified. Job may not of understood why God took his children at the time, but in the end, he saw why.

Edited to add: Zboy, per you God WANTED it to happen. Per thinking Christians, God only allows this evil as a price for giving free will. He didn't want it. He wants us to be like Him, holy. But you believe He WANTS babies raped for His greater glory. That's pretty sick of you.

What makes you think human babies are more valuable than God's glory?

 

[CRASH]

All means all to Z, EVERYTHING will be saved

All means all to Z, EVERYTHING will be saved

Well why don't you tell us? I want to hear what you think about God allowing rape to occur, when He has the power to stop it. What kind of hope and trust can the parents find in a God who sits back and allows it to happen for no reason at all? God can't see the future, in your view, so how does a baby rape fit into His plan (if He even has a plan)? Does God comfort the family by telling them, 'Oops'?

The fact that you do not have an answer for this until Bob gives you one tells me that you are lost without Bob. You have believed everything he has ever said. If it comes from Bob's mouth, it's immediately truth to you, without even the slightest idea to compare or research Bob's teachings with what the Word of God says. I'm willing to bet if Bob said that pink aliens are coming from Pluto to kill all sinners, you'd believe him!

Build straw men, then tell total and utter lies. Getting a bit defensive as you defend your false god's baby rape are you?

Your ideas on the translation of Ephesians 1:11 are very confusing. You dedicated a whole paragraph to try and pursuade us that 'all things' spoken of in v.11 means only the Body of Christ. I don't buy it. I could give my reasons, but I don't think it will do anything to advance this debate. You can believe that hogwash description you just gave me, but for me, I'll just believe what God's Word says. It seems simple enough to me without having to give the phrase 'all things' a totally new definition.

No answer huh. Running in away in fear, huh. That explanation for Ephesians 1:11 was very insightful, unless of course, you want to remain willingly ignorant.

 

[Z Man]

Build straw men, then tell total and utter lies. Getting a bit defensive as you defend your false god's baby rape are you?



No answer huh. Running in away in fear, huh. That explanation for Ephesians 1:11 was very insightful, unless of course, you want to remain willingly ignorant.

If you want to add to the debate by saying something intelligent, by all means, please do so. But if you want to come up here to ridicule someone you disagree with, you should keep your mouth shut.

 

[RightIdea]

Well why don't you tell us? I want to hear what you think about God allowing rape to occur, when He has the power to stop it. What kind of hope and trust can the parents find in a God who sits back and allows it to happen for no reason at all? God can't see the future, in your view, so how does a baby rape fit into His plan (if He even has a plan)? Does God comfort the family by telling them, 'Oops'?

The fact that you do not have an answer for this until Bob gives you one tells me that you are lost without Bob. You have believed everything he has ever said. If it comes from Bob's mouth, it's immediately truth to you, without even the slightest idea to compare or research Bob's teachings with what the Word of God says. I'm willing to bet if Bob said that pink aliens are coming from Pluto to kill all sinners, you'd believe him!

You don't even know me, Z! I've known the man in real life for years, have been on his radio show, and had just talked to him only a few hours before that post. He is a friend of my ministry, especially our founder. And yet.... I do NOT believe everything he's said (or done for that matter), we have doctrinal differences, and I particularly disagree with certain kinds of activism he's done in the past. Bob is most certainly not my guru. I know there are some people here at this website who do see him that way, but I certainly do not.

You would do well to know at least a little something about a person before judging them. (I'm not opposed to judging, but you oughta at least know what you're talking about before proving yourself the fool.) Heck, I've criticized Bob on a number of things regarding this debate, including the serious issue of staying on topic! And you think I'm an Enyart yes-man? I think not.

And furthermore, I DID answer your question, I did give an answer. I simply said that Enyart will have a better one because I happen to know he's about to cover this very thing in a couple days. That's all.

Your ideas on the translation of Ephesians 1:11 are very confusing. You dedicated a whole paragraph to try and pursuade us that 'all things' spoken of in v.11 means only the Body of Christ. I don't buy it. I could give my reasons, but I don't think it will do anything to advance this debate. You can believe that hogwash description you just gave me, but for me, I'll just believe what God's Word says. It seems simple enough to me without having to give the phrase 'all things' a totally new definition.

Ah, so you're a universalist, then? You believe that all people, both believers and unbelievers, are "in Christ" and reconciled to Him, etc.?

This is some interesting news, I must say!

Not only that, but you just accused me of not answering your question, even though I explicitly did... and now to my question, you respond with, "I could give my reasons, but I don't think it will do anything to advance this debate?" Bwah ha ha ha! Nice...

And besides, you got so caught up in trying to disprove Eph. 1:11 that you failed to mention anything about the rest of the Scriptures I posted, which show God at work in certain tragedies of life. What are thoughts regarding Amos 3:6 and Job 2:10?

If you think I'm going to write a commentary on every one of a couple dozen passages you rattle off, at your whim and beck and call, you've got another think coming to you. You can't just throw down a laundry list and expect people to analyze every verse separately, Z. That's not even remotely fair. However, I'll take a look at Amos 3:6 and Job 2:10.

I would, however, recommend that YOU take a look at those passages, rather than ripping one verse out of its immediate context (as you so love to do). What is God talking about here? The way things happen in all nations all the time regardless of situation? Heck no. God is warning Israel about judgment at a specific time, and saying He is going to specifically brnig calamity to her, that it is on the way. And when it happens, they will know.... that at that time, if calamatous events like that happen, they will know that this time, it was the Lord's doing. Let's take a look at the actual passage (something apparently new to you):

1 Hear this word that the LORD has spoken against you, O children of Israel, against the whole family which I brought up from the land of Egypt, saying:
2 “ You only have I known of all the families of the earth;
Therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities.”
3 Can two walk together, unless they are agreed?
4 Will a lion roar in the forest, when he has no prey?
Will a young lion cry out of his den, if he has caught nothing?
5 Will a bird fall into a snare on the earth, where there is no trap for it?
Will a snare spring up from the earth, if it has caught nothing at all?
6 If a trumpet is blown in a city, will not the people be afraid?
If there is calamity in a city, will not the LORD have done it?
7 Surely the Lord GOD does nothing,
Unless He reveals His secret to His servants the prophets.
8 A lion has roared!
Who will not fear?
The Lord GOD has spoken!
Who can but prophesy?

He's talking about a particular, impending judgment of calamity. And then the Lord warns about calamity to other specific places at this particular time, citing Ashdod and the palaces in Egypt, and Samaria....

14 “ That in the day I punish Israel for their transgressions,
I will also visit destruction on the altars of Bethel;
And the horns of the altar shall be cut off
And fall to the ground.
15 I will destroy the winter house along with the summer house;
The houses of ivory shall perish,
And the great houses shall have an end,”
Says the LORD.

This is talking about a specific impending event! Not a universal declaration, Z. It's right there in black and white. Now, as for Job 2:10? This one is considerably easier.

"10 But he said to her, “You speak as one of the foolish women speaks. Shall we indeed accept good from God, and shall we not accept adversity?” In all this Job did not sin with his lips."

I really don't see your point about this passage. Where does it say that it was God that visited adversity upon Job? On the contrary, the preceding verses explicitly state that it was Satan that did this, not God. I don't even see a point to this one, frankly.

 

[elected4ever]

OV sounds more like Greek mythology than does CV. OV reminds me of Hercules talking to Zeus to make a bargain than Christianity. :rotfl: :e4e:

 

[CRASH]

Truth

Truth

If you want to add to the debate by saying something intelligent, by all means, please do so. But if you want to come up here to ridicule someone you disagree with, you should keep your mouth shut.

Truth hurts doesn't it.

 

[elected4ever]

Truth hurts doesn't it.

Is that why you keep ignoring it to bring discredit to Christianity?