Battle Talk ~ Battle Royale VII

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Eireann

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Originally posted by Scrimshaw
No, you stated that god "popped into existence". To "pop into existence" entails an origin, a beginning. The Christian God has never been defined as having an origin or beginning. The Christian God has always been defined as ETERNAL, which is also the definition of most other gods.
Actually, most other Gods are not defined as eternal. Most of them, particularly the Greek, Roman, Norse and Celtic deities all have origins and even family trees, so to speak, although I'll grant that in most pantheons there is at least one god or entity that is either defined as eternal or at least is not attributed an origin.

Example:

Nox > Cronus and Rhea > The Titans, Zeus and Hera > Athena, Artemis, Hercules, etcetera.

... or something like that. Most other pantheons of gods contain some kind of similar lineage.
 

Scrimshaw

New member
Originally posted by Eireann
Actually, most other Gods are not defined as eternal. Most of them, particularly the Greek, Roman, Norse and Celtic deities all have origins and even family trees, so to speak, although I'll grant that in most pantheons there is at least one god or entity that is either defined as eternal or at least is not attributed an origin.

Example:

Nox > Cronus and Rhea > The Titans, Zeus and Hera > Athena, Artemis, Hercules, etcetera.

... or something like that. Most other pantheons of gods contain some kind of similar lineage.

Sometimes I wonder if you argue strictly for argument's sake. Did you even read Quip's comment? He flat out said he was specifically referring to the Christian God; who is most definitely defined as "eternal". So your arguments above are not only inaccurate, but quite pointless. By the way, how many people believe in the Norse/Greek/Celtic gods compared to the number of people who believe in the Islamic/Christian Gods? Hmmmm??? Take a wild gander. I'll give you a clue. Half of the entire world's population is either Muslim or Christian.
 

Eireann

New member
Originally posted by Scrimshaw
Sometimes I wonder if you argue strictly for argument's sake. Did you even read Quip's comment? He flat out said he was specifically referring to the Christian God; who is most definitely defined as "eternal". So your arguments above are not only inaccurate, but quite pointless. By the way, how many people believe in the Norse/Greek/Celtic gods compared to the number of people who believe in the Islamic/Christian Gods? Hmmmm??? Take a wild gander. I'll give you a clue. Half of the entire world's population is either Muslim or Christian.
I'm sorry, was it not YOU who said this:
The Christian God has always been defined as ETERNAL, which is also the definition of most other gods.
If you don't want to be called on inaccurate information, then I suggest you not post inaccurate information. And for the record, I happen to BE one of those whose religious beliefs DO incorporate those Norse/Greek/Celtic gods.
 

Hank

New member
Originally posted by Flipper
OEJ:



Certainly that's true. But it seems like if all the multiplicity of cats with all their adaptions evolved in just 6,000 years, the genome would have incontrovertible evidence for an agressive rate of change, no? I'm particularly interested in the mechanisms that allowed such dramatic change in such a short time, the checks that prevented speciation beyond the "kind", and the mechanics of the ruthless culling that ejected genes from the pool as the animals took on their forms and adaptions. Unless you're implying that all cats still have the ability to become lions/tigers/servals/housecats/cheetahs/snowleopards/mountainlions etc etc...

Flipper the use of 6000 years of evolution is not correct. The flood was approximately 4000 years ago. By the time the New Testament was written, the animals must have been pretty much in their present state as the Bible talks about several animals that would have evolved from the ark, Foxes, asses, etc. Therefore all of the evolution must have taken place in about 2000 years or less. And probably even less unless the theory would be that everything was changing until the time of the New Testament then abruptly stopped. I even think that is being generous as it talks about Daniel in the lions den much earlier. So there were at least lions around from whatever they evolved from in the ark much earlier.
 

tenkeeper

New member
Job 26

How have you helped him that is without power? How savest you the arm that has no strength?
How have you counselled him that has no wisdom? And how have you plentifully declared the thing as it is?
To whom have you uttered words?
And whose spirit came from you?
Dead things are formed from under the waters and the inhabitants thereof.
Hell is naked before Him and destruction has no covering.
He stretcheth out the north over the empty place and hangeth the earth upon nothing.
He bindeth up the waters in His thick clouds; and the cloud is not rent under them.
He holds back the face of His throne and spreads His cloud upon it.
He has compassed the waters with bounds, until the day and night come to an end.
The pillars of heaven tremble and are astonished at His reproof.
He divides the sea with His power and by His understanding He smites through the proud.
By His Spirit He has garnished the heavens; His hand has formed the crooked serpent.
Lo, these are parts of His ways: but how little a portion is heard of Him?
But the thunder of His power, who can understand?
 

philosophizer

New member
Originally posted by Freak
Easy--do you believe "chair" can be anything else but "chair"???

From it's structural sequence as I typed it.

Freak, I understand what you're saying about the structure of the word "chair." But there's still an arbitrary line that must be drawn as to how deep to go into the "structure."

The first letter of "chair" could also be capitalized as "C." Or it could be written in a different font with serifs or with script. It could be underlined or strikethrough. It could be italic or bold. The letter C could be represented countless different ways. But these are just intentional methods that can change the structure. What about random ways?

The letter C when typed on the computer screen is made of a pattern of pixels which are given light and color by the picture tube in the monitor. These pixels aren't all exactly the same. There is always some random variation in how they are working at any given moment. The chances that any two pixels are receiving the same exact amount of energy is extremely slim. Therefore, every letter C that is typed on the computer screen is unique and cannot be absolutely compared to any other letter C, even if they are the same font, size, shape, style, and color. Even if they look exactly the same, there are always minute difference we cannot see.

Or if you print off your page of letter C's, the printout will have similar minute differences due to momentary variations in the print head, tiny hills and valleys in the paper, and non-perfect movement of the page under the roller mechanism inside the printer. Or truly getting down to the nitty-gritty, the molocules and atoms in the ink that forms the letters are each performing their own movements and will not match the movements of the corresponding molocules and atoms in the other C's.

So it can't really be claimed that the structure of "chair" is absolute and a chair can be nothing else but a chair. Each time it is typed it is different. You have simply drawn the line at the point where the words appear to our eyes to be exactly the same, forsaking the microscopic differences that still do exist.
 

Soulman

BANNED
Banned
PureX said,
What I think is true, though, is that "believers" really can't imagine life without their beliefs. And those who have accepted relativism can't really unknow what they have learned, either.
But as a relativist, what do you think you know? How can you ”know” anything? Absent a fixed, absolute standard, what you think you “know” is only a snapshot of matter in motion. What you “know” is literally here today and gone tomorrow. You can’t have it both ways. On one hand you said that atheists “don't have that ‘fixed yardstick,’ and all we are doing is guessing…”, yet on the other hand you say that you can’t “unknow” what you’ve learned. But, what can you “learn” if we are, in your words, “lost in perpetual uncertainty”?

As for believers not being able to imagine life without their beliefs, keep in mind that most believers were not always believers. I don’t have to “imagine” life without my beliefs, I remember my life without my beliefs. This is true for most of the Christians I’ve ever met, who, like me, accepted the gospel as an adult. Also, for the record, characterizing believers as psychological cripples who cling to a “fantasy” of God because they can’t face the reality of a Godless universe is an attack on the mental state and character of the believer. To dismiss religious presuppositions as a form of “mass hysteria” is too easy, and an intellectual cop out. You are saying that belief in a Supreme Being -- historically humanity’s majority position -- is delusional, while admitting that atheism is “lost in perpetual uncertainty.” You can’t beat something with nothing, and the nothing of perpetual uncertainty is all relativistic atheism has to offer. How that is a “superior” or a more “psychologically well adjusted” position is yet to be seen. Would you care to compare the relative quality of life, family dysfunction, and suicide rates of Christian theologians versus the psychiatric profession?

You would agree, I think, that Christian theologians and philosophers are, as a rule, an educated people. There are many examples of brilliant, educated scholars, atheist and Christian alike. Jonathan Edwards, for example, is considered by Christians and non-Christians to be one of the most influential scholars ever produced in America. Yet, because he believes in the God of the Bible, you would dismiss him (and all theists) as “neurotic” and a closet thumb-sucker, unable to cope with reality. It seems obvious, given the caliber of the big brains on either side of the faith issue, that “raw intelligence” has very little to do with whether or not one accepts the truth statements of the gospel. Characterizing belief in God as a “coping” or “mental health” problem is intellectually dishonest. Perhaps you are suggesting that atheists, as a special group, are more “evolved.”

Soulman
 

Cleohair

New member
A Response to Zakath...

A Response to Zakath...

quote:
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1.Complexity of design demands a Creator
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This is merely an assertion. In a debate, any assertion can be called into question. Where's the supporting evidence to prove that Pastor Enyart's God was the creator?
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When did this become a debate on the existance of "Bob Enyart's God"???? I noticed you've been misunderstanding that a lot in the actual debate, too. It's on the existance of ANY God!!! A Creator. And complexity demanding a Creator is not an assertion, it is a scientifically provable fact.

Take a very simple complexity of the workings of a mousetrap as your experiment (& I'll even spot you the materials to make the mousetrap, which is another problem). Place the piece of wood & pieces of wire needed to make a mousetrap in a box(not already put together-seperate) & leave it. The wood will break down, the wire will rust; but you will never look into that box & find a working mosetrap. A Creator has to come along & put those pieces together to work. If simplicity demands a Creator, then complexity demands it even more!



quote:
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2.Laws of Thermodynamics
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How is this evidence for the idea that Pastor Enyart's God created matter from nothing? Doesn't that concept violate the very laws you're claiming for evidence?
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Again, this is for ANY God!

The 1st says matter can't create or destroy itself-thus you NEED a Creator of the original matter!!! God is not matter, but spirit; thus He does not violate the Law.
The 2nd says things go toward disorder, not order-thus for the world to have such AMAZING order some force outside of it had to be at work.



quote:
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You do not have to be an expert to understand those two very simple ideas...
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True, but you appear to have misunderstood them...
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My above answers clearly show I did not misunderstand the Laws.



quote:
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... so again there is no reason for the mind-numbing theories of someone else.
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Just because you have difficulty following something does not necessarily invalidate it's usefulness as evidence. I don't understand the math behind quantum mechanics, but I can see that particle accelerators work...
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Oh, I had hoped I wasn't speaking to someone with this type of childish mentality! Just because someone uses the word 'mind-numbing' doesn't mean they didn't understand what they were referring to. I had a 4.0 in high school & college. I've studied almost every subject I came across & excelled at each one I tried(including teacher-aiding in the subjects of Science, English, & Accounting). I did not have trouble understanding your quotes.

My reference was about one of my pet-peeves in life - people hiding behind big words. It usually implies they have something to hide. If you can't take the 'Big-Word Theories' & explain what you mean in everyday language, then usually you don't have a clue what the theory meant or there's a serious flaw in the theory itself. For example, I could say, "The momentum of the spreading device allowed me to liberally spread the exact amount of the substance on the plane of existance." or I could say, "I buttered a piece of bread." Neither shows a lack of intelligence; but one shows an ability to keep things quick & concise. It's a showing of respect to other people's time. Darn, mine's up again-I hate timed computers. Talk later.
 

bob b

Science Lover
LIFETIME MEMBER
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Originally posted by ApologeticJedi
Most scientists do not contend that the number of variety of cats comes from anything other than selective breeding. That is why plants, and particularly animals that are historically used as pets have exponentially higher variety within a species than animals typically not domesticated. Mendel’s work in this area (particularly with the varieties of pea) is still the regarded standard as far as I know.

To suggest that it arrives at any other means other than selective breeding (even natural selection) is basically unfounded. (There is a quantum in biology today when dealing with animals like anteaters -the giant in South and Latin America verses the Australian variety - for they appear to be almost identical in features but are completely different in DNA makeup.)

Mendel’s work in this area (particularly with the varieties of pea) is still the regarded standard as far as I know.

It was recently discovered after detailed analysis of the pea plant DNA that Mendel's work could be characterized as analysis of "genetic disease" inheritance since at least some of the characteristics he defined are now known to be due to a deleterious point mutation (e.g. the tall versus dwarf variety).

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1997/09/970906095641.htm

"In the dwarf plants there is a change of one base in the DNA sequence, which leads to a change of one amino acid in the resulting protein. In turn, this results in an enzyme that is still active in converting GA20 into GA1, but at 1/20th the rate. Therefore, dwarf peas are less efficient at synthesizing the gibberellic acid responsible for promoting stem growth. The plant becomes growth deficient."
 
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Flipper

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Argumentum ad populum.

Actually, it's a combination of that and appeal to authority.

Nevertheless, unless you're a scientist and a specialist in your field, everyone (including scientists) must rely upon the expertise of others.

Because of the astounding success of the scientific method in the last 300 years, I am content to watch trends and rely on the mainstream of opinion. For example, I accept the theory of relativity, although I know there are a tiny minority of those who do not.

If they can stand it on their head, so much the better, but their solutions had better fully take into account Einstein's equations because we know that they work.

The point is, science tends to advance these days by accreting on the knowledge we have already accumulated. Einstein did not throw Newton out - on the contrary, he provided a deeper insight into nature. Newtonian equations are embodied in relativity.

So I am highly skeptical that a theory like evolution, with its vast amounts of suppporting evidence from a diversity of scientific disciplines, is way off by orders of magnitude.

Furthermore, when I see the ad hoc nature of explanations in much of creationism, I see a inelegant hodge-podge of statements that don't bear much resemblance to what is actually observed. I'm also a bit concerned by the urge to subsume science to religion. I think that science ends up suffering.

4,200 years, eh?

Your point about siamese cats is interesting, but you neglect to mention the fact that they are still felix catus, and are not genetically different.

You are right - it is possible to affect some quite dramatic changes in a short period if you are deliberately and selectively breeding for character traits in each generation. Instead of the generally more subtle nudges of natural selection (barring major environmental change), you indulge directed selection, it should come as no surprise that it doesn't take so long.

Big cats do show more variance, and you seem to be proposing that this variance happens, and is happening, in a ridiculously small amount of time. I'm interested to know why we don't see this rate of change today. You seem to allude that we do, but don't provide much in the way of examples (note, I'm talking within nature here, not through selective breeding programs).

I have to say that if you're serious about 4,200 years as the time period for all the genetic diversity we see on the planet, I can't really take you seriously.

As you say, we shall see as more and more genomes are sequenced and compared. Personally, I think this question was already settled much earlier, but maybe when we've got the detailed roadmaps creation science will have to fallback once again.

If you're right, then when do you think we'll see the revolution in scientific thinking occur? What decade this century should I mark in my calendar? Seems to me that with 114 genomes, they'd have enough evidence by now. Has it been hushed up, do you think?

Hey -- it's your guy that's doing it.

My guy?? What are you on about?

Are you sure they've completed that many, or does that include the ones they're currently working on as well?

Yup, that's an approximation of how many they've completed so far. In fact, let me get you an exact number:

114 total genomes sequenced. http://www.nslij-genetics.org/seq/

So I was off by six, but I was doing it from memory.

Although, if you include viruses, plasmids, and organelles, the total number of sequenced genomes is 1648.
 

Freak

New member
Originally posted by philosophizer
Freak, I understand what you're saying about the structure of the word "chair."

Great.

The first letter of "chair" could also be capitalized as "C."

Huh? "Chair" is "Chair" or "chair" is "chair." If I choose to give the "c" a lower case then that it is what it is--"chair" is "chair"--can it be (the way I sequenced it) any other way? Of course not. It is absolute as I placed it.


The letter C when typed on the computer screen is made of a pattern of pixels which are given light and color by the picture tube in the monitor. These pixels aren't all exactly the same.

I'm not speaking of the pixels but rather the "letter" or even the "word"--in this case "chair."


Or if you print off your page of letter C's, the printout will have similar minute differences due to momentary variations in the print head, tiny hills and valleys in the paper, and non-perfect movement of the page under the roller mechanism inside the printer. Or truly getting down to the nitty-gritty, the molocules and atoms in the ink that forms the letters are each performing their own movements and will not match the movements of the corresponding molocules and atoms in the other C's.

I'm speaking of the language not of the ink, atoms, etc....

So it can't really be claimed that the structure of "chair" is absolute and a chair can be nothing else but a chair.

Yes it can in the form of language--"chair" is "chair"--study up on the philosophy of language.
 

LightSon

New member
Originally posted by Flipper
I am highly skeptical that a theory like evolution, with its vast amounts of suppporting evidence from a diversity of scientific disciplines, is way off by orders of magnitude.

The theory of evolution is driven from an ideological need to explain existence without the benefit of a creator. Never underestimate the power of religion. The theory of evolution is based upon a religious belief: specifically, that all the complexity of nature (atomic construction, plants and animals) was generated without the benefit of any intelligent design. That is faith! I allow for micro-evolution (mutation of species) because it is an observable phenomenon. Macro-evolution is patent speculation. No body has ever seen it. The age of the planet and of the universe are likewise based upon pseudo-scientific guesses; no man was present during the formation of the universe to make the requisite scientific observations and documentations. Aging techniques have been shown to be untrustworthy.

These same (evolution) religionists will dismiss documented eyewitness testimony offered by Peter and corroborated by the other apostles regarding the crucified and resurrected Jesus. They disbelieve, not for lack of evidence, but for ideological reasons.
 
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bob b

Science Lover
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Flipper,

The sequencing of genomes is a good thing for those who believe in a Creator because it is demonstrating that the previous naive theories of scientists are having to be rapidly revised.

My example of Mendel's "pea plant" work illustrates this phenomenon.

The early DNA work caused people to believe that the "factors" Mendel described were identical to the "genes" which coded for proteins. Scientists have known for years that this is a gross simplification because it was becoming obvious that individual proteins affected more than one visible characteristic AND multiple proteins were involved in determining the outcome of specific visible characteristics. Thus the one gene - one characteristic idea has been dead a very long time. (Not to mention the concept that it is only genes that determine lifeforms, a naive idea that led to labelling any DNA that did not code for a protein as "junk").
 

Flipper

New member
Lightson:

The theory of evolution is driven from an ideological need to explain existence without the benefit of a creator.

Wow - someone should tell the theistic evolutionists that. I'm sure they'll be very upset. I would have to tell you that that was not the prime goal of Darwin, in so far as we can tell from his letters. He was quite aware of the possible implications of his theory, but if anything he was concerned by them. Nevertheless, the TOL is still the best description for the diversity of species. Sorry you don't like it.

These same (evolution) religionists will dismiss documented eyewitness testimony offered by Peter and corroborated by the other apostles regarding the crucified and resurrected Jesus.

There's not really a mound of supporting evidence for that, other than the gospels, no? Also, what predictions were made by these observations that have since been born out, and can this event (or even possible parts of it) be reconstructed in an experimental suitation and be repeated? If you can't tell the difference between literature and science, that's your problem.
 

Zakath

Resident Atheist
Anybody familiar with Piaget's kidnapping story will know just how reliable eyewitness testimony and memory can be. :rolleyes:
 
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