Battle Talk ~ Battle Royale VII

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jeremiah

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Originally posted by bmyers
Why?

It is certainly possible for someone to think that there could be a God behind evolution, AND that the Earth is 5 billion years old - and still that this same God was "seen by man, performed miracles, left instructions on how to live, cares for us, and left his son to die for us." In fact, it is quite clear that a very large fraction, and likely even the majority, of professed Christians in this world believe exactly that. So your argument is of the "excluded middle" variety - you'd like to force us into choosing between one of only two extreme options, namely either accepting the whole creationist/literalist position, or atheism as the "only" alternative. Nonsense.
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Bmyers, you disapointed me, this is the first time you didn't give me a direct answer to a direct question. First of all the question was directed to you and Aussie Thinker. He did give an answer. The reason that there is an excluded middle in my question to the two of you is because from reading your posts any god that you two would propose would have to be inside and outside those parameters. You told me that you rejected the God of the Bible and His method of Salvation. Therefore you cannot be in the middle that you described as one possible alternative. If you are, please correct me, or feel free to describe a god in any way that you would like. Aussie Thinker did. I certainly have. Why won't you?
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But even if we DID come up with a description of God per your request above - what would it really mean? I strongly suspect that you're looking for something to point to and say, "See? THAT God isn't nearly as nice as THIS God!" But that's an utterly irrelevant argument. Your view of God is NOT more likely to be true than anyone else's, simply because you LIKE it better. The truth does not particularly depend on what you would like to be so.
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Which is exactly why you will not answer???
For I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ for it is the power of God unto salvation. For the Jew first and also the Gentile.
If you propose to believe in something that you can not see, you will subject to the same examination and possible ridicule that we who believe in the God of the Bible are subject to.
 

Jefferson

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Re: Battle Royal VII

Re: Battle Royal VII

Originally posted by Frank Ernest
Have saved the entire debate. From what I've skimmed there's a bunch of good info here. It will take me a while to sort it all out.

Thanks to the participants.
Welcome to TOL Frank. You might enjoy some of Enyart's other writings here: http://www.enyart.com/features/writings/nicer.shtml Just go down the "writings" box at the right of that page.
 

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Originally posted by jeremiah
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If you propose to believe in something that you can not see, you will subject to the same examination and possible ridicule that we who believe in the God of the Bible are subject to.
oh, and why is that? :think:
 

jeremiah

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To:pERFIDIÆ

The simple answer is that there are people who only believe what they can see and or test with their own eyes, and their own senses. The problems arise when we acknowledge that there are things that exist which cannot be seen or measured. For example how much do you love your parents, or your children? What is love? what is beauty? what is goodness? etc.
Now if you claim a truth that there is or that there must be a God. You are open to examination and ridicule. For instance you said you love your children, but I just saw you give them a Coca cola and a candy bar. Is that love?
Or, you say that the God of the Bible is a loving God then why did he have the Jews kill the Caananities and their children?
If an adult believes in a Santa Claus we would ridicule him. Why because we know that we made him up for our children, and there is no evidence to support the claim.
If an adult claims a belief in a God which around 90% of adults really do, then you examine the God that one describes.
The God of the Bible has left us a lot of evidence and a lot of spiritual and ethical TRUTHS that even many atheists agree with?
Bmyers hinted that he may believe in some sort of supernatural being, I would simply like to know what that god might be like so we can examine it. It only seems fair and reasonable in the vein of the overall discussion.
 

bmyers

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Originally posted by jeremiah
To bmyers:
Maybe I don't know Buddha as well as I thought. I thought he acheived enlightenment and experienced Nirvana by practicing a severe form of ascetism until he reached that state. I thought he was willing to die until he had overcome his flesh.

I would suggest that you read any of a number of texts regarding Buddhism (the teachings of the Buddha himself are excellent, but I think may be a bit much if all you're looking for is a brief overview of Buddhist traditions, history, and thinking). "Buddhism, Plain and Simple" by Steve Hagen (an American Buddhist monk) or "Buddhism Is Not What You Think: Finding Freedom Beyond Beliefs" by the same author are both excellent introductions. The following, though, is from Huston Smith's "The Religions of Man," which I believe is unfortunately out of print:

"His next step was to join a band of ascetics and give their way full try...He ate so little, one bean a day during one of his fasts, that 'when I thought I would touch the skin of my stomach, I actually took hold of my spine."...In the end he grew so weak that he fell into a faint, and if companions had not been around to feed him warm rice gruel, might easily have died.

This experience taught him the futility of asceticism. He had given this experiment all a man could and it had not been successful. It had not brought him enlightenment."

So while the Buddha did spend time as an ascetic, his philosophy did not come from asceticism nor is Buddhism currently ascetic (which requires denial of even bodily needs, to the extent that the practitioner is capable). Buddhism IS often referred to, though, as the "Middle Way," as it teaches a path between asceticism and indulgence. The basic notion of Buddhist philosophy is that human suffering (what in Sanskrit is written as dukkha, and is only approximately translated as "suffering") is the result of tanha, usually translated as "desire" but again only approximately. So Buddhism is not about denying oneself the necessities of life, but rather eliminating "desire" (again, this suffers from the simplicity of the translation) and seeing the world for what it is.

The idea that Buddha was practicing asceticism at the time of his enlightenment probably comes from the legend of his "seating himself underneath a Bo tree and vowing not to move until he achieved enlightenment" - but this is generally seen as referring to his dedication to that cause, not that he was denying himself food, drink, etc., during this period.


I think Buddhist monks today practice certain types of ascetism and certainly isolation from the world. I think at the very least Buddhism could be described as mental ascetism?

Buddhist monks practice humility and poverty, in a manner very similar to, say, their Catholic counterparts. If that is a type of "asceticism", then I suppose you'll find them ascetics. Buddhism certainly does not require its followers in general to practice asceticism, physical or mental - although I'm not at all certain what you mean by "mental asceticism."
 

isaiah 1:18

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Originally posted by attention
Well that is good.

And have you read the part that makes statements about sophistry, and how that relates to dialectical reasoning?

Yes. And what is more, I read the entire thread when you first made it an imperative to do so. There, I was afforded a view of not only sophistry at work in relation to logical and critical reasoning, but how a fixed "world view" reasons from only premises it deems reasonable to support its view.

All arguments are brilliant in their own right, but none yet may lay claim that theirs is the definitive view.

Logic, science, faith... in concert or solo do not account for all possiblities. There is much yet that we do not know as humans.

Would you agree with that?
 

attention

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Originally posted by isaiah 1:18
Logic, science, faith... in concert or solo do not account for all possiblities. There is much yet that we do not know as humans.

Would you agree with that?

What do you know of, that humans do not know about then?

Are you a super human, that knows about things that no human knows about?

Or are you merely giving credit to some outside observer, outside of time and space, that knows about the universe?
 
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Jason Thomas

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The Enyart vs the Atheist battle

The Enyart vs the Atheist battle

Last night I entered a link to the Enyart battle in a powerfully predominantly atheist posting forum. So far I have received a typical atheist response in that...well...see for yourselves how I reacted to it:


"Even though I am inspired to do so, what’s the real point in providing you atheists with evidence? If I truly expect to convince you that God exists, in this manner, I am obviously wasting my time. There is so much evidence in that debate between Bob Enyart and the intelligent and devout Christian turned atheist. Obviously nothing will work to convince you staunch atheists. You can see the evidence and you can see how the atheist gave up on the battle debate before finishing what he began. You can see much and still you want more evidence. There are many intelligence scientists and doctors who believe in God and there are many who do not. You seem to think it is up to you whether you believe or not. Maybe this is true and maybe not. But it seems rather obvious to me that YOU CANNOT BELIEVE and that is infinitely different from ‘you do not believe’. God has obviously closed the gate of Salvation against you and so no amount of evidence will make any difference. This planet is obviously the only Heaven you atheists will ever see and that is a very cheap Heaven at best. Well, I refuse to cry for the damned. There are most probably more than enough people in the world crying for the damned and it seems to be making no real difference. Far be it from me to ruin my happiness in life by crying for those who God has obviously rejected.

You have been used to Christians attempting to convince you that God exists who are actually pimps for their respective religions. I come into this forum expressing many of your gripes about organized religion. I tell you that you do not need any religion to be saved in the Kindgom of Christ. I sympathize with your misgivings about religion and understand and agree with many of your complaints. Does it make any difference that I am approaching this matter in a way that you most probably have never seen before in these forums? Obviously not. I am still not ‘originally creative’ enough for you.

Most of you humans are famous for ruining any kind of help given to you. It doesn’t matter where it may come from. If it’s a prophet sent by God you kill him. If it’s a wonderful scientific discovery you find a way to use it to destroy. If it’s a religion you find a way to use it to trick and enslave the minds of the masses.

No wonder the Biblical God has said that the road to Salvation is straight and narrow and few there be who find it. Obviously God only wants the very best in His Kingdom and most of you people simple do not qualify.

In the New Testament of the Bible, when God the Father once spoke to His Son in an audible voice many people heard the voice while the damned only heard thunder. If God ever directly speaks to you I believe you atheists, at best, will only hear thunder. Obviously hell is your fate and, thank God, it’s not my problem. AMEN!"
 

isaiah 1:18

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Originally posted by attention
What do you know of, that humans do not know about then?

Are you a super human, that knows about things that no human knows about?

Or are you merely giving credit to some outside observer, outside of time and space, that knows about the universe?

No, never said that or implied that. The key is possibilities. Even so, you continue to miss the point.

You, I and all here do not have the answer or answers that are to be held in any eminent regard as ultimate truth and I am able to state that on the grounds that....

There still exists...

Questions.

And men, honest men, men of good rapport, learned men, diligent men, esteemed men, at one time or the other, seeing that no matter what effort is put forth, no final and throughly convincing answer to any argument in regards to the ultimate questions has been forthcoming, have set aside their pride and their piety and have answered saying...

"In the end, we honestly don't know."
 

isaiah 1:18

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Jason Thomas,

You see, proof of God will not equal belief in God. It will equal knowledge of God. And as per the scriptures, it is not knowledge of God that saves a man, but faith in Him.

And I quote: Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

So as you see, attempting to succinctly or exhaustively prove that God exists nullifies faith. And as per the scriptures, without faith, there can be no salvation.
 

Jason Thomas

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Proof Enough

Proof Enough

Well, we have proof enough that this devout Christian turned atheist is a rather worthless fellow.

He proudly sports an icon of a smiley face apparently getting drunk

He supposedly once taught Christians about God and now has turned himself, like a dog who licks up his vomit, to atheism

He agreed to the terms of the debate with Bob Enyart and disappeared without a trace or explanation, apparently, without finishing what he began

Taking all this into account shall we conclude that atheism is doing him a world of good? Shall we all emulate such a fellow and teach our children that all people should be like him? I hardly think so.

Face reality: Atheism is not making the world a better place.
 

isaiah 1:18

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Re: Proof Enough

Re: Proof Enough

Originally posted by Jason Thomas
Well, we have proof enough that this devout Christian turned atheist is a rather worthless fellow.

...He agreed to the terms of the debate with Bob Enyart and disappeared without a trace or explanation, apparently, without finishing what he began

Taking all this into account shall we conclude that atheism is doing him a world of good? Shall we all emulate such a fellow and teach our children that all people should be like him? I hardly think so.

Face reality: Atheism is not making the world a better place.

Well, I'm going to give an honest reply setting aside my own personal beliefs and say that since the entire world (that is all of its inhabitants) are not atheist, nor subscribe to it as the preeminent doctrine, we cannot determine if it is making the world a better place or not. But taking into consideration the world as it is and its history, and atheist contributions, societies and systems, we can safely say that atheism is no better as an ideology than theism.

For every upright theist, there's a low-down-dirty-stinking-atheist.
And for every upright atheist, there's a low-down-dirty-stinking-theist.

Such is the nature of man.
 

attention

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Originally posted by isaiah 1:18
No, never said that or implied that. The key is possibilities. Even so, you continue to miss the point.

You, I and all here do not have the answer or answers that are to be held in any eminent regard as ultimate truth and I am able to state that on the grounds that....

There still exists...

Questions.


Well that is a good thing, we have questions. If we wouldn't have any questions any more, then what would be the point?

I never said that we could have or did have all the knowledge.

There is obviously...... DEVELOPMENT in every aspect of reality, so also in our consciouss experience of reality.

You did not get my point.
The point was, if you state that we do not know everything, it would mean you know things which we do not know yet.
Yet, you can not know that, since if you knew them, then that also would be knowledge...

Perhaps a strange paradox, but yet that is the case of course.

We know our knowledge is limited because we know our knowledge is progressing. And only in that sense we know there must be more to know since that has been typically the case throughout all of human history.
 

attention

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Jason Thomas:

We have not given up anything, and you aain misrepresent reality here.

I had sent in one contribution, which was limited to 5000 words.

But they did simply not publish that. I made also many posts in which I rebuted the position of Bob.

But Bob obviously does not even WANT to debate me. I think he knows he can not beat me. It is because I have a firm and profound, well grounded system of thought.

We are preparing now for the follow-up round (me and 2 others).

The dead-line is wednesday 27 of August. So far we could get some good material, and are still working on some material.

I also made an answer to all Bob's questions.

And we have some good questions to Bob.

Perhaps that is publised seperately.

We will see in the follow up round....
 

bmyers

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Originally posted by Bigotboy
Please state a FACT of the evolutionary process as it relates to the formation of creatures. Did birds evolve from lizards ? Are Black people really inferior to Whites, because anybody can see that Black people are more closely related to the common anscestor of man and ape. This is pure Darwinism, by the way, and not a position held by the Bible. It says we are "all one blood".

Of course it's not Darwinism at all that makes such claims, but merely your distorted view of it. In terms of your specific examples - yes, as far the the best understanding of the evidence goes right now, it is believed that birds evolved from what you might call "lizards" - or what would be better identified by the term "dinosaur," although the literal meaning of that term might not apply well in all cases. As far as "black being are more closely related to the common ancestor of man and ape" - say who? You say that "anybody can see" this, so apparently it's your opinion, but I certainly don't se any current anthropologist making such a silly claim. The Caucasian race of humans likely did evolve to deal with a cooler climate with less sunlight, and from a ancestor that is common to most if not all modern day race - but which one is "more closely related" to that common ancestor, indeed if any could be said to be, wouldn't have anything at all to do with one race being "superior" or "inferior" to another. What on Earth do you mean by "inferior" in the first place, in this context? Why would you make the silly assumption that the farther a given species is evolved from a given ancestor, the more "superior" it is in some overall, generic sense (as opposed to merely being better adapted to the conditions in which that species finds itself)?

If you want to debate this seriously, then please stop writing such silliness and put a bit more thought in to the effort.
 

bmyers

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Originally posted by jeremiah
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Which is exactly why you will not answer???

You still make two completely unwarranted assumptions.

First, you assume that since I don't accept the description of God as presented by a literal interpretation of the Bible, that I must have some other description that I DO "believe in." This is incorrect, as I do not. I do not "disbelieve" in God (i.e., I am very open to the possibility of God's existence), but I also do not have a specific set of beliefs regarding God. I simply see little point in speculating to the degree of specificity you seem to be looking for.

The other unwarranted assumption is that, should it be that someone WOULD have such a belief in a specific model of God outside of yours, that they would feel obligated to describe it to you or even see the point in doing so. Actually, I can think of even one more - the assumption you seem to be making that if one does not share their model of God with you, that the only possible explanation for this is that they are somehow "ashamed" of that description. I would suggest that if anything, this shows more about your lack of imagination then their specific reasons.


If you propose to believe in something that you can not see, you will subject to the same examination and possible ridicule that we who believe in the God of the Bible are subject to.

Actually, that's not quite true, either. There are any number of things that people believe in, yet cannot be seen, and which are also not ridiculous notions. One cannot see gravity, radio waves, or even a strong wind - but we "believe in" them because they behave consistently and with clearly observable effects. On the other hand, we don't believe in, say, Santa Claus, because there are certain aspects of the description of Santa Claus which have been shown to be unreasonable and/or untrue. People have been to the North Pole, for instance, and found neither elves nor toy factory. So simply "being unseen" isn't really all it takes for a belief in something to be viewed as "ridiculous."
 
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bmyers

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Originally posted by jeremiah
To:pERFIDIÆ

The simple answer is that there are people who only believe what they can see and or test with their own eyes, and their own senses. The problems arise when we acknowledge that there are things that exist which cannot be seen or measured. For example how much do you love your parents, or your children? What is love? what is beauty? what is goodness? etc.

Not really much of a problem, though, since pretty much anyone will have direct experience of these things. Once again, things do not have to be seen to be reasonable to accept as existing.

Now if you claim a truth that there is or that there must be a God. You are open to examination and ridicule.

Of course, but then you're OPEN to examination and ridicule regarding ANY belief. You will only actually BE "ridiculed," though, if someone else thinks that YOUR belief is completely unreasonable. There are some people, of course, who will find your beliefs unreasonable for reasons which are, themselves, ridiculous - but then, we generally ignore those people and call them "crazy." The only real problems that come up for any of us is when people question our beliefs and seem to have some good reasons for doing so. Otherwise, to misquote Richard Feynmann, why would YOU care what other people think?


Bmyers hinted that he may believe in some sort of supernatural being, I would simply like to know what that god might be like so we can examine it. It only seems fair and reasonable in the vein of the overall discussion.

You seem to have a remarkable talent for inferring something when no such "hint" was intended. To make it perfectly clear - no, I do not believe in any specific description of a "supernatural being". I am open to the existence of such, though, and will describe one to you just as soon as I find one.
 

bmyers

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Re: Proof Enough

Re: Proof Enough

Originally posted by Jason Thomas
Well, we have proof enough that this devout Christian turned atheist is a rather worthless fellow.

He proudly sports an icon of a smiley face apparently getting drunk

Tell me, did it leave much of a scar when you had your sense of humor surgically removed? ;)


Face reality: Atheism is not making the world a better place.

OK - but if "atheism is not making the world a better place," then we should at least acknowledge that there have been any number of atheists who have, just as there have been any number of self-professed Christians (and other forms of believers) who have done great harm. Similarly, while a great deal of good has been done in the name of Christianity, this is also true of just about any other major religion you can name as well - just as it's hard to find an example of a religion in whose name blood has not been spilled unjustly. So since apparently there aren't any "isms" with a corner on the market for either goodness or badness, what's the point?
 

bmyers

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Re: Re: Proof Enough

Re: Re: Proof Enough

Originally posted by isaiah 1:18
Well, I'm going to give an honest reply setting aside my own personal beliefs and say that since the entire world (that is all of its inhabitants) are not atheist, nor subscribe to it as the preeminent doctrine, we cannot determine if it is making the world a better place or not. But taking into consideration the world as it is and its history, and atheist contributions, societies and systems, we can safely say that atheism is no better as an ideology than theism.

For every upright theist, there's a low-down-dirty-stinking-atheist.
And for every upright atheist, there's a low-down-dirty-stinking-theist.

Such is the nature of man.

Isaiah - very well said! I only wish I had read far enough to have seen your response before posting my own, since it would have saved me the trouble, and you did such an excellent job.
 
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