ECT Augustine and His Many Blunders

[Jerry Shugart]

God doesn't give His Spirit to those who do not do what His Son says.

He doesn't give His Spirit to those who do not believe what the Son said here:

"I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die" (Jn.11:25-26).​

According to your ideas the Lord Jesus was wrong when He said that those who "believe" in Him will never die because you teach that believing is not enough.

 

[God's Truth]

He doesn't give His Spirit to those who do not believe what the Son said here:

"I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die" (Jn.11:25-26).​

According to your ideas the Lord Jesus was wrong when He said that those who "believe" in Him will never die because you teach that believing is not enough.

You are so ensnared that you think Jesus saying to 'believe' in him then nullifies all the scriptures where he tells us to obey.

You quoted Jn. 11:25-26 and you think that nullifies John 8:51 Very truly I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never see death."

John 14:23 Jesus replied, "Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.

 

[God's Truth]

That is one of the reasons. But I have yet to figure out why he thought that Adam's body was somehow changed when he ate of the forbidden tree:

"Our bodies would not have been born with defects, and there would have been no human monsters, if Adam had not corrupted our nature by his sin, and that had not been punished in his posterity. Op. Imp. I. 116; II. 123; III. 95,104; V. 8. The sickly and dying nature of the human body, proceeds from the lapse of the first man. De Gen. ad Lit. XI. 32" [emphasis added] (G.F. Wiggers, An Historical Presentation of Augustinism and Pelagianism From the Original Sources, 97).​

Do you have any idea where he got that idea? Even John Calvin followed Augustine in that regard, writing that "everything which is in man, from the intellect to the will, from the soul even to the flesh, is defiled and pervaded with this concupiscence; or, to express it more briefly, that the whole man is in himself nothing else than concupiscence" (John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion;2:1:8).

Perhaps someone knows why Augustine thought that the body of Adam was changed when he ate of the forbidden tree? It also seems that Calvin also followed Augustine in regard to his ridiculous ideas concerning concupiscence. Wiggers says that "Augustine explains himself to this effect, that carnal concupiscence has its seat in the body as well as in the soul. 'The cause of fleshly lust is not in the soul alone, and still much less in the body alone. For it arises from both; from the soul, because without it no delight is felt; and from the flesh, because without this, no fleshly delight is felt,' etc. X. 12." [emphasis added] (Ibid., 95).

According to Augustine before Adam and Eve fell they had no fleshy lust (concupiscence):

"Before the fall, and before there was any necessity of dying, concupiscence had no existence; but after the body had acquired a sickly and dying nature, (which likewise belongs to the flesh of animals), it received also, on this account, the movement by which the carnal desire originates in animals, whereby those that are born, succeed the dying.' De Gen. ad Lit. XI. 32" [emphasis added] (Ibid.).​

Frankly, it is hard for me to take anything which Augustine says seriously.

Why in the world would what Augustine said, in this instance, be so hard for you to take seriously?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

You are so ensnared that you think Jesus saying to 'believe' in him then nullifies all the scriptures where he tells us to obey.

Use your brain for a change. What He said here is either true or false:

"And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die" (Jn.11:26).​

You say that it is false because He said that those who believe in Him will never die because according to you believing is not enough.

 

[God's Truth]

Use your brain for a change. What He said here is either true or false:

"And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die" (Jn.11:26).​

You say that it is false because He said that those who believe in Him will never die because according to you believing is not enough.

You are the one who needs to use your brain. It is as if you have no reasoning skills. You gave a scripture where Jesus says to believe in him---AND WHAT HAS HE BEEN teaching people to believe? He was been teaching things to do and things not to do!

 

[God's Truth]

Use your brain for a change. What He said here is either true or false:

"And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die" (Jn.11:26).​

You say that it is false because He said that those who believe in Him will never die because according to you believing is not enough.

Notice that you removed the scripture from my post where Jesus tells us what we have to do.

 

[God's Truth]

The word of God is the one who says that people who do good come to the light.

Jesus is the one who says that there are people on the side of what is true listens to him and believes.

The word of God is the one who says God accepts those who do right and fear Him.

Why does Jerry go against that truth and keep only saying 'believe' and then call people such as myself condemned for preaching obedience?

It is because they are ensnared by the devil to do such things.

 

[God's Truth]

Jesus' words are Spirit and life.

Jesus never ever preached for us to 'believe' him and don't obey him.

Jesus never preached that believing and not obeying is the secret to a magical awakening.

We don't get the Spirit and life by saying 'I believe' while being careful to do nothing.

The careful to do nothing is about not thinking you can clean yourself.

See the Jews didn't want to stop working at cleaning themselves.

The Jews didn't think that God would change it up after He gave commands to work at washing yourself to that of Jesus' blood washing you.

The Jews wanted to keep doing it themselves.

Nowhere anywhere is believe but be careful not to obey God's powerful Word the message that saves.

Believe the Truth that we have to have faith that Jesus' blood cleans those who repent of their sins and put all their trust in doing exactly what Jesus says to do.

 

[Wick Stick]

That is one of the reasons. But I have yet to figure out why he thought that Adam's body was somehow changed when he ate of the forbidden tree:

"Our bodies would not have been born with defects, and there would have been no human monsters, if Adam had not corrupted our nature by his sin, and that had not been punished in his posterity. Op. Imp. I. 116; II. 123; III. 95,104; V. 8. The sickly and dying nature of the human body, proceeds from the lapse of the first man. De Gen. ad Lit. XI. 32" [emphasis added] (G.F. Wiggers, An Historical Presentation of Augustinism and Pelagianism From the Original Sources, 97).​

Do you have any idea where he got that idea?

1Corinthians 15:45-50 equates Adam with both corruption and mortality. Of course, that doesn't mean what is quote above, but if one was working from a translation that was somewhat basic...

 

[Jerry Shugart]

1Corinthians 15:45-50 equates Adam with both corruption and mortality. Of course, that doesn't mean what is quote above, but if one was working from a translation that was somewhat basic...

Adam was created with a mortal body (see my initial post). So of course his body could be described as being subject to corruption.

But I see no evidence that his body changed when he ate of the forbidden tree.

 

[glorydaz]

Adam was created with a mortal body (see my initial post). So of course his body could be described as being subject to corruption.

But I see no evidence that his body changed when he ate of the forbidden tree.

He began to age and die. The process of dying began the day he ate of the fruit.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

He began to age and die. The process of dying began the day he ate of the fruit.

I would say that his body was subject to death prior to eating of the forbidden tree. I see no evidence that the eating of that tree changed his body in anyway whatsoever. As you noted, David did not think that the body which he had (which had come through Adam) was flawed in any way whatsoever:

"For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well" (Ps.139:13-14).​

I wonder what Augustine would have said about David's words there.

 

[God's Truth]

I would say that his body was subject to death prior to eating of the forbidden tree. I see no evidence that the eating of that tree changed his body in anyway whatsoever. As you noted, David did not think that the body which he had (which had come through Adam) was flawed in any way whatsoever:

"For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well" (Ps.139:13-14).​

I wonder what Augustine would have said about David's words there.

So you think the scriptures are in competition to each other and one nullifies the other?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

So you think the scriptures are in competition to each other and one nullifies the other?

I never said that. I said that what David said about his body confirms my belief that Adam's body and the bodies of his descendants was not and are not born with defects, as Augustine taught and as John Calvin taught.

 

[God's Truth]

I never said that. I said that what David said about his body confirms my belief that Adam's body and the bodies of his descendants was not and are not born with defects, as Augustine taught and as John Calvin taught.

So then what are you thinking and saying about these two scriptures:

"For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well" (Ps.139:13-14).

Psalm 51:5Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

6Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

So then what are you thinking and saying about these two scriptures:

"For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well" (Ps.139:13-14).

Psalm 51:5Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

6Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.

I say that there is no reason to think that the first passage should not be taken literally but the same cannot be said about the second. David does not state that the guilt of Adam's sin was imputed to him. Instead, when we examine what is said we can understand that David was deeply troubled for his sins and wicked behavior and convicted of his guilt:

"For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me. Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest. Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me" (Ps.51:3-5).​

Here we see that David was acknowledging total responsibly for his actions and he was not placing the blame upon Adam or anyone else. He expressed his repentance in an extreme manner, using figurative language to express the idea that he had been sinful ever since he could remember.

After all, not everything that is said at Psalm 51 can be understood literally. Let us look at what else is said in the same Psalm:

"Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom. Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow. Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice" (Ps.51:5-8).​

If all of these verses are to be taken literally then verse seven can be evidence that men are cleansed from their sins "with hyssop." Verse eight can also be taken in a literal sense to teach that broken bones rejoice!

 

[God's Truth]

I say that there is no reason to think that the first passage should not be taken literally but the same cannot be said about the second. David does not state that the guilt of Adam's sin was imputed to him. Instead, when we examine what is said we can understand that David was deeply troubled for his sins and wicked behavior and convicted of his guilt:

"For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me. Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest. Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me" (Ps.51:3-5).​

Here we see that David was acknowledging total responsibly for his actions and he was not placing the blame upon Adam or anyone else. He expressed his repentance in an extreme manner, using figurative language to express the idea that he had been sinful ever since he could remember.

After all, not everything that is said at Psalm 51 can be understood literally. Let us look at what else is said in the same Psalm:

"Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom. Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow. Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice" (Ps.51:5-8).​

If all of these verses are to be taken literally then verse seven can be evidence that men are cleansed from their sins "with hyssop." Verse eight can also be taken in a literal sense to teach that broken bones rejoice!

My beliefs are is that we are God's creation and are wonderfully made, but that we have a fallen sinful nature that came about because of Adam.

I don't see how you can say David didn't blame Adam or anyone when he says his mom conceived him in sin.

As for the hyssop statement, hyssop is a cleaning herb.

It was used for purification.

 

[Tnkrbl123!]

I said the following and nothing which I said contradicts Genesis 3:24:

He died physically because he no longer had access to the very thing which would keep him alive forever. He died physically for that reason.​

No tree is what gives life or keeps anything alive. The tree is a symbol but only God gives life and ends life. God is the only giver of life. No object that God created can give life but only God Himself. This is so important to understand.

There are too many verses to write that explain that nothing lives or exists unless God gives life and sustains life. This concept is fundamental and is seen from Genesis to Revelation. This post is not long enough to hold all of the verses that explain this. I will give just one but there are hundreds more

"What gives life is God's Spirit; human power is of no use at all. The words I have spoken to you bring God's life-giving Spirit." John 6:63

I think as a Christian you can realize that only God gives and sustains life and no object that is created has any power to give life.

 

[genuineoriginal]

No tree is what gives life or keeps anything alive. The tree is a symbol but only God gives life and ends life. God is the only giver of life. No object that God created can give life but only God Himself. This is so important to understand.

There are too many verses to write that explain that nothing lives or exists unless God gives life and sustains life. This concept is fundamental and is seen from Genesis to Revelation. This post is not long enough to hold all of the verses that explain this. I will give just one but there are hundreds more

"What gives life is God's Spirit; human power is of no use at all. The words I have spoken to you bring God's life-giving Spirit." John 6:63

I think as a Christian you can realize that only God gives and sustains life and no object that is created has any power to give life.

"Tree of life" is used as an allegory in some verses, but it refers to a specific plant created by God that was in Gan Eden and will be restored to earth in the thousand year kingdom and beyond.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

No tree is what gives life or keeps anything alive.

Your statement is contradicted by the fact that Adam was created in a mortal body and in order for him to live forever eating of the Tree of Life was absolutely essential:

"And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life" (Gen.3:22-24).​