ECT Augustine and His Many Blunders

[Jerry Shugart]

God told Adam that he would die if he ate from the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good an evil.
That does not suggest Adam was in body that could die from accidents or any other means, it suggests that Adam's body was changed after eating.

Why did Adam have to eat of the Tree of Life in order to live forever?

And Adam died spiritually the day when he ate of the forbidden tree.

 

[God's Truth]

From the Scripture that I referenced in my response to Jerry.

Okay, I see where the problem is. You said since Adam all men stand condemned; but, I read that scripture as saying condemnation came to all as in now all have the chance to be condemned. We know all men were not condemned because some people were saved. As further defense to my beliefs, just look at the very next scripture which says, "For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous." We know that not all are made righteous.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Why did Adam have to eat of the Tree of Life in order to live forever?

To reverse the effects of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil making him mortal.

And Adam died spiritually the day when he ate of the forbidden tree.

The Bible never said Adam died spiritually or anything like that.
The concept came from people trying to reconcile God stating Adam would die on the day he ate and then Adam not dying for a while.
This can easily be reconciled with Adam becoming mortal on the day he ate instead of trying to spiritualize what happened.

 

[God's Truth]

Adam was not created in an incorruptible body because in order for him to live forever it was necessary for him to eat of the tree of life.

If he was created in an incorruptible body he would have had no need to eat of the Tree of Life to live forever.

When all are raised incorruptible, and we live on the new earth, we will eat from the tree of life:

Revelations 2:7 "Anyone who has an ear should listen to what the Spirit says to the churches. I will give the victor the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in God's paradise.

 

[God's Truth]

The Scriptures do not say one way or the other. However, we do know that in order to live forever the eating of the Tree of Life was absolutely necessary. Therefore, Adam was created in a mortal body.

And I see no evidence that his body was changed in any way when he ate of the forbidden tree.

Do you?

I believe humans were meant to live forever, but that when sin entered the world, God could not let men live forever because of sin. Just imagine the most evil men living forever and not dying.

Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."

 

[God's Truth]

Also consider how all are condemned to die, not necessarily condemned to hell.

The way the scriptures sound about condemnation came to all...it might be better to think of it as all men condemned to death.

When Jesus comes again, ALL will be raised incorruptible, even those who will be cast in the lake of fire.

They will be raised incorruptle and they will not die.

The saved will not die and they will live on earth with God forever; and, the evil will be raised incorruptible and live in the lake of fire forever.

That is another way of seeing the truth about condemnation to all.

But then, how will a person in the lake of fire keep living even if they do have an incorruptible body, since they will not have access to the tree of life?

So we then see more clearly how life and death are not always about the literal, but it is death and hell to be without Christ; and, it is goodness and life to be with Him.

 

[God's Truth]

Adam and Eve did not literally die that day they sinned.

No spirit dies literally either.

Eventually Adam and Eve dies.

And, eventually spirits do die in that they don't know God as they should.

What it comes down to is that life is hell without God.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

This can easily be reconciled with Adam becoming mortal on the day he ate instead of trying to spiritualize what happened.

If Adam was created with an immortal body then why was it necessary for him to eat of the Tree of Life in order to live forever?

Your idea makes no sense whatsoever!

 

[genuineoriginal]

If Adam was created with an immortal body then why was it necessary for him to eat of the Tree of Life in order to live forever?

Eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil changed Adam's body from an immortal body to a mortal body.
It would require eating from the tree of life to reverse the effect.

Your idea makes no sense whatsoever!

The idea I present is at odds with the idea you have accepted, but my idea is logically sound.

 

[God's Truth]

If Adam was created with an immortal body then why was it necessary for him to eat of the Tree of Life in order to live forever?

Your idea makes no sense whatsoever!

Why do we eat from the tree of life AFTER we are resurrected and given incorruptible bodies?

You are not taking my post seriously.

You prove you condemn yourself.

James 2:9 But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Why do we eat from the tree of life AFTER we are resurrected and given incorruptible bodies?

The references to the Tree of Life in the book of Revelation are not to be taken literally, just as the references to it in the book of Proverbs are not to be taken literally.

 

[glorydaz]

The references to the Tree of Life in the book of Revelation are not to be taken literally, just as the references to it in the book of Proverbs are not to be taken literally.

She calls it a vision when it's talking about the SOULS crying out, but she takes it literally when it suits her.

 

[God's Truth]

The references to the Tree of Life in the book of Revelation are not to be taken literally, just as the references to it in the book of Proverbs are not to be taken literally.

Nonsense.

You were talking about the tree of life in Genesis.

You said, "If Adam was created with an immortal body then why was it necessary for him to eat of the Tree of Life in order to live forever?"

I gave you scripture about our eating from the Tree of Life AFTER we are given incorruptible bodies.

 

[God's Truth]

She calls it a vision when it's talking about the SOULS crying out, but she takes it literally when it suits her.

Stop speaking for me. I do no such thing what you said. You were proven wrong about something from Revelation. The scripture you said was proof souls went to heaven was just a vision. I didn't say all of Revelation is a vision.

 

[glorydaz]

Stop speaking for me. I do no such thing what you said. You were proven wrong about something from Revelation. The scripture you said was proof souls went to heaven was just a vision. I didn't say all of Revelation is a vision.

:rotfl:

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I gave you scripture about our eating from the Tree of Life AFTER we are given incorruptible bodies.

Yes, and I said that those verses are not to be taken literally. Just like the verses which speak a of the same thing in the book of Proverbs. Anyone can see that those verses are not meant to be taken literally.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

She calls it a vision when it's talking about the SOULS crying out, but she takes it literally when it suits her.

She's a hoot!

But what can we expect from someone who has not received the Spirit which is of God because see doesn't know the things which are FREELY given to true believers (1 Cor.2:12).

 

[Wick Stick]

In his book on Adam's fall I. A. McFarland wrote that Augustine marked a "transition from a loosely conceived, broadly ecumenial doctrine of the fall to a much more tightly formulated doctine of original sin...Augustine's thought decisively redirected Christian interpretation of the fall" (I.A. McFarland, In Adam's Fall: A Meditation on the Christian doctrine of Original Sin, 32).

We will see that Augustine's theory of Original Sin was based on a basic misunderstanding of the following verses which speak of the results of Adam's eating of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil:

"And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life" (Gen.3:22-24).​

First, we can understand that Adam was created in a mortal body because in order for him to live for ever it was necessary for him to eat of the Tree of Life. That idea is supported by by the Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges:

"Man must be prevented from eating of the Tree of Life, and so obtaining another prerogative of Divinity, that of immortality. Man is created mortal."

Henry Alford wrote that "man was created subject to death" (Henry Alford, The Book of Genesis and Part of the Book of Exodus; A Revised Edition [London: John Childs and Son, 1872], 19).

Gerald Bray said that "Adam was not created as an immortal being, but in the garden of Eden he was protected against death. When he fell the protection was removed and he suffered the consequences as his nature was allowed to take its course " [emphasis added] (Gerald Bray, "Sin in Historical Theology," in Fallen: A Theology of Sin, 169).

We also know that when Adam ate of that tree his physical body did not undergo a change in his physical makeup. Albert Barnes wrote the following:

"The tree of the knowledge of good and evil effected a change, not in the physical constitution of man, but in his mental experience - in his knowledge of good and evil" (Albert Barnes, Barnes Notes on the Bible, Commentary at Gen.3:22).​

There is absolutely no evidence that the physical body of Adam was changed in any way at all. He died physically because he was denied the very thing which would have allowed him to live for ever--the Tree of Life. Despite this Augustine mistakenly believed that when Adam sinned he "despoiled his body":

G.F. Wiggers quoted Augustine saying the following: "If Adam had not sinned, he would not have been despoiled of his body, but would have been clothed with immortality and incorruptibility, that what is mortal should be swallowed up of life..." De Pec. Mer. I. 2, 4." [emphasis added] (G.F. Wiggers, An Historical Presentation of Augustinism and Pelagianism From the Original Sources [Andover, MA: Gould, Newman & Saxton, 1840], 92; A Reproduction by Forgotten Books).

John Calvin followed Augustine in thinking that Adam's body and his descendant's bodies are defiled as a result of concupisence, writing that "everything which is in man, from the intellect to the will, from the soul even to the flesh, is defiled and pervaded with this concupiscence; or, to express it more briefly, that the whole man is in himself nothing else than concupiscence" (John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion; 2:1:8).

So we can see that the foundation of the theory of Original Sin was built on a false idea about what happened when Adam sinned. But many people still cling to the teaching found in this theory, a theory which was first formulated during the dark ages!

Augustine was working from Latin translations of the Bible, at a time before they were standardized, or in some cases, he may have been lacking certain books because they hadn't yet been translated.

For that reason primarily, his theology is full of errors, some inconsequential, and others grave.

 

[God's Truth]

She's a hoot!

But what can we expect from someone who has not received the Spirit which is of God because see doesn't know the things which are FREELY given to true believers (1 Cor.2:12).

God doesn't give His Spirit to those who do not do what His Son says.

Psalm 50:23 Whoever sacrifices a thank offering honors Me, and whoever orders his conduct, I will show him the salvation of God."

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Augustine was working from Latin translations of the Bible, at a time before they were standardized, or in some cases, he may have been lacking certain books because they hadn't yet been translated.

For that reason primarily, his theology is full of errors, some inconsequential, and others grave.

That is one of the reasons. But I have yet to figure out why he thought that Adam's body was somehow changed when he ate of the forbidden tree:

"Our bodies would not have been born with defects, and there would have been no human monsters, if Adam had not corrupted our nature by his sin, and that had not been punished in his posterity. Op. Imp. I. 116; II. 123; III. 95,104; V. 8. The sickly and dying nature of the human body, proceeds from the lapse of the first man. De Gen. ad Lit. XI. 32" [emphasis added] (G.F. Wiggers, An Historical Presentation of Augustinism and Pelagianism From the Original Sources, 97).​

Do you have any idea where he got that idea? Even John Calvin followed Augustine in that regard, writing that "everything which is in man, from the intellect to the will, from the soul even to the flesh, is defiled and pervaded with this concupiscence; or, to express it more briefly, that the whole man is in himself nothing else than concupiscence" (John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion;2:1:8).

Perhaps someone knows why Augustine thought that the body of Adam was changed when he ate of the forbidden tree? It also seems that Calvin also followed Augustine in regard to his ridiculous ideas concerning concupiscence. Wiggers says that "Augustine explains himself to this effect, that carnal concupiscence has its seat in the body as well as in the soul. 'The cause of fleshly lust is not in the soul alone, and still much less in the body alone. For it arises from both; from the soul, because without it no delight is felt; and from the flesh, because without this, no fleshly delight is felt,' etc. X. 12." [emphasis added] (Ibid., 95).

According to Augustine before Adam and Eve fell they had no fleshy lust (concupiscence):

"Before the fall, and before there was any necessity of dying, concupiscence had no existence; but after the body had acquired a sickly and dying nature, (which likewise belongs to the flesh of animals), it received also, on this account, the movement by which the carnal desire originates in animals, whereby those that are born, succeed the dying.' De Gen. ad Lit. XI. 32" [emphasis added] (Ibid.).​

Frankly, it is hard for me to take anything which Augustine says seriously.