God_Is_Truth
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believe it or not, my theology is from the bible
ARGH!!! Open Theism makes me furious!!!
- Thread starter Swordsman
- Start date
believe it or not, my theology is from the bible
Swordsman,
What Calvinist ever said that all things are predestined? How about all of them! It is a basic Calvinist doctrine. To deny that every single event that occurs whether it is of a moral nature or not is to deny Calvinism all together! Every flicker of light that bounces from the road to the chrome bumper on the car in front of you and just past your head that you never even saw was predestined to take that exact path at the exact moment that it happened. Every atom is in its exact place, precisely where God predestined that it would be before time began. This is the essence Calvinistic predestination.
Such meticulous predestination is logically required in order to maintain the absolute immutability of God. If something happened that God hadn't already known about then that would be a change and God's perfect immutability would crumble into dust. Calvinistic immutability is so important because they reason that something that is perfect cannot change because if it did then it would no longer be perfect.
This single piece of faulty logic is what the entire TULIP is logically derived from. To remove it is catastrophic to the entire Calvinist theological construct.
Resting in Him,
Clete
kidd94
New member
My concern is that, according to what I have read, salavation is not our responsibilty, but somehow, eternal torment is... :devil:
That unbalances the scales of morality. Yes we can't fully understand God, but God his truest essence is Love.
4 Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; 5 does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; 6 does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; 7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
If we want to find God, and understand God, isn't His word a great place to start. The scriptures outline the qualities of those who display love, and God is that perfect example. These passages may not fit into the mold of election vs free will, but it does point to the character of God. That is why I, in all honesty, can not say that there are those who go to hell, and have no way of changing that.
kidd94
New member
This scripture here has always intrested me. The key verse is 35. How can we reconcile this. It does appear to point in the direction that we do have the ability (dominion) to do things of this world that somehow God allows to happen that did not enter His mind... Granted this does not prove anything, but it does shed some possible light, however dim it might be.
Jeremiah 32:32-35
32 because of all the evil of the sons of Israel and the sons of Judah which they have done to provoke Me to anger--they, their kings, their leaders, their priests, their prophets, the men of Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
33 "They have turned {their} back to Me and not {their} face; though {I} taught them, teaching again and again, they would not listen and receive instruction.
34 "But they put their detestable things in the house which is called by My name, to defile it.
35 "They built the high places of Baal that are in the valley of Ben-hinnom to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through {the fire} to Molech, which I had not commanded them nor had it entered My mind that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin..
Jeremiah 32:32-35
32 because of all the evil of the sons of Israel and the sons of Judah which they have done to provoke Me to anger--they, their kings, their leaders, their priests, their prophets, the men of Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
33 "They have turned {their} back to Me and not {their} face; though {I} taught them, teaching again and again, they would not listen and receive instruction.
34 "But they put their detestable things in the house which is called by My name, to defile it.
35 "They built the high places of Baal that are in the valley of Ben-hinnom to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through {the fire} to Molech, which I had not commanded them nor had it entered My mind that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin..
It was the ancient pagan philosophers that came up with the flawed logic that something perfect cannot change.
And that philosophy is so obviously wrong!
Well.... wrong that is when applied to a animate objects or a living beings. That pagan philosophy only makes any sense when applied to a INanimate objects, like bowling balls or a statue.
A perfect clock changes ALL day long!!!
Animated objects or living beings change by definition. If we came across a animated object or a living being that didn't change we would refer to that item as "broken" or "dead".
A perfect God has the ability to relent... show mercy.... grieve... get jealous... get angry... forgive.... forget... and become flesh. God is NOT broken. God is alive! God is the Living God.
But the LORD is the true God; He is the living God and the everlasting King. At His wrath the earth will tremble, And the nations will not be able to endure His indignation. - Jeremiah 10:10
God_Is_Truth
New member
:up:
Swordsman
New member
:down:
I could never trust a god like that. :nono:
Per your definition, he's no different than we are. I wonder if He could possibly sin? :think:
I like how Thomas Oden, a Methodist minister, warns the church against the false doctrines of openness
I love how he used the words "fantasy" and "demonic". That's exactly what the open view brings. It is just another attack on the church by Satan himself.
If the apostle Paul were still around, he would be writing letters to the churches in America exhorting them to flee these satanic falsehoods and hold on to the truth - that God is God! And that His will CANNOT be thwarted and those whom He hasn't plucked from the stream of men falling into Hell will be condemned for eternity! He is the one true Almighty God! There is no other. He knows the future because He created it! He knows all His sheep before the foundation of the world because He created them.
Originally posted by God_Is_Truth
believe it or not, my theology is from the bible
No it is not. How many times do I need to tell you that The Plot is NOT the Bible?
You have a problem with the Living God?
YES or NO
In the Bible God describes Himself as the Living God?
That wasn't my definition.... it was His definition.
you continue...
Spare us the dramatics... you sound as if you are losing it. :kookoo:
Swordsman
New member
No. There you go assuming I said that again.
Yes. Point? Because His "living" is nothing like our "living". You have no platform here Knight if you think you can draw some sort of conclusion to the Living God likened into a living man where he can make mistakes, take risks, change his mind, make regrets, ignorant, impatient, etc.....
If so, then I'll say it again. I COULD NEVER TRUST A GOD LIKE THAT.
So its possible for God to sin? Please tell me that's not what you're saying? If so, you're no different than arguing with an atheist.
I'm always happy to entertain you Knight.
God_Is_Truth
New member
for the record, i have not read the Plot. not one single page.
God_Is_Truth
New member
why not?
Don't bother Swordsman with the facts... he's like a bull in fine china store.
So you cannot trust a God that is capable of change???
I trust a God that BECAME flesh.... do you?
jpbordeaux87
New member
Posted by Knight:
+
Posted by Swordsman:
= If the Bible is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, aren't you both right? Or is this a contradiction? Or maybe it's "One of God's secrets"? Can they both be true?
This does not compute.
+
Posted by Swordsman:
= If the Bible is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, aren't you both right? Or is this a contradiction? Or maybe it's "One of God's secrets"? Can they both be true?
This does not compute.
Is an Oak better or worse because it grew a leaf or dropped an acorn or went dormant in winter?
Is a mountain stream better or worse because eroded a portion of the bank and meandered to the south of it previous position?
Is a traffic light better or worse because the light changed from green to red?
Is a car engine better or worse because cylinder 8 is firing at the moment instead of cylinder 7?
No! These things are not better or worse they are simply different!
Change does not imply improvement or worsening especially if it is part of one's nature to change. In that case, not to change would imply that something was wrong. If something does not change that should then chances are it is dead! Take the Oak for an example, does and dead stump of an Oak tree change more or less than one that is alive?
God is a living relational being. To suggest that He is immutable robs Him of the ability to even think, never mind have a genuine two way love relationship with another living being.
Resting in Him,
Clete
Swordsman,
Is God dead right now?
Has He ever been dead, even for say, 3 days maybe?
Has God ever been a man?
Is God a man right now?
Has there ever been a time when God was not a man?
Would you say that when something dies it has changed to one degree or another from when it was alive?
Is God sin now?
Has God ever been sin, say when he was dying on the cross, for example?
Has God always been sin?
The Calvinist doctrine of immutability is utterly incompatible with the very gospel itself. This speaks nothing about Open Theism, there are other possibilities so don't jump into attacking what you think Open Theism teaches in attempt to evade the questions I've posed here. We'll get to Open Theism in due time. You say that Open Theism makes you furious but it is you who are either unwilling, or unable to defend what you posit as not only AN alternative to it, but THE ONLY alternative to it! If you cannot defend Calvinism, why would I, or anyone else here, drop Open Theism in favor of it?
Resting in Him,
Clete
Is God dead right now?
Has He ever been dead, even for say, 3 days maybe?
Has God ever been a man?
Is God a man right now?
Has there ever been a time when God was not a man?
Would you say that when something dies it has changed to one degree or another from when it was alive?
Is God sin now?
Has God ever been sin, say when he was dying on the cross, for example?
Has God always been sin?
The Calvinist doctrine of immutability is utterly incompatible with the very gospel itself. This speaks nothing about Open Theism, there are other possibilities so don't jump into attacking what you think Open Theism teaches in attempt to evade the questions I've posed here. We'll get to Open Theism in due time. You say that Open Theism makes you furious but it is you who are either unwilling, or unable to defend what you posit as not only AN alternative to it, but THE ONLY alternative to it! If you cannot defend Calvinism, why would I, or anyone else here, drop Open Theism in favor of it?
Resting in Him,
Clete