Rolf Ernst,
You said
Clete--Godrulz is right about James not preaching a faith + works salvation. James was talking not about works as a means of salvation, but about works always accompanying any faith that is genuine.
A faith that is without works is not genuine, and that kind of faith is false and can save no one. Works have no saving power in themselves, but they always accompany true faith.
Scripture asks if faith alone without works is a saving faith. Of course our faith in God is a salvic issue, and we have scripture saying that faith alone is not saving, instead, it's a dead faith.
But then we have you trying to undo this teaching and effectively say that it is not saying what it says. But you neglect to say why we should trust and believe your ideas literally, but disbelieve God's word literally? What is wrong with a literal understanding of what God through James says?
Lets just assume your right in a general sense, then you have a very difficult problem. James brings up the issue of salvation, but it is debated as to the context of the proceeding passage, if it's about salvation or not. So here's the problem. If the passage I quoted from James does not have the idea of salvation in mind, then what do you do with that initial challenging question about salvation? If the rest does not have to do with salvation, then are we to assume that God started a thought progression that centered in on SALVATION, and then forget to make a point about it? Please explain.
Here's a copy of my thoughts in with that passage. Please respond about scripture's initial comment about faith alone being "saving" or not.
- James 2:14 What [does it] profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?
James plainly asked if "faith alone", that is, "faith without works" can be save someone or not.
- 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food,
16 and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?
17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
First unambiguous answer, faith without works is dead, faith alone can not save a person.
- 18 But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
Here he compares not just faith and works, but "faith alone" and "faith PLUS WORKS"! James practically ties faith to works as though they are one side of a two sided coin (Faith plus works)
- 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe——and tremble!
20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?
23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God.
Isn't that funny, here the circumcision writer uses Abraham as their model for justification, but not as Paul did! Paul said, remember Abraham and how it was that God blessed him PRIOR to receiving circumcision, so that he could be the father of both groups, the circ and the uncirc. Yet here we do not see the fullness of that teaching in that Paul shows that the promise was given to him prior to circumcision because our dispensation is about being justified by faith only and not of works, instead of that, we see James saying that after Abraham was blessed because of believing God, then he demonstrated that belief with his works and so from his perspective, all that was necessary, faith and works in order to get justified.
- 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
Notice that this justification is synonymous with verse 14. Sometimes salvation is spoken of by one of it's characteristics, like redemption, justification, sanctification, etc. Again, he repeats the answer to his question, can faith alone same someone, and James says no, faith alone is not enough to get justified.
- 25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
FAITH without works is dead!!!
That is a serious teaching. You are saved by faith, right, everyone here seems to agree on that much, but James says that faith alone without works is DEAD, it's NOT life imparting (salvation), it's death! It just doesn't get any plainer than that. James requires that it's faith and works together if you want to be saved.
Lastly, when Paul teaching salvation through faith alone, do you have a consistent reason why you reject that idea and say that after one is saved, works are required if you have an authentic faith. Paul does not teach that you have to have so many good works, but we do get
- Indwelling HS
- Sanctification process
- The mind of Christ
- Sealed for the day of redemption by the Holy Spirit
- We are made into a new creation, we are a new man
- We get the guarantee of our inheritance in Jesus
(among other things)
And we don't get...
- That Christians stop sinning just because they are saved
- That there is a list of sins that one can do to loose your salvation
- There there is a number of sins that would mean you would loose your salvation
- That if we want to rest assured that we are saved, that we see if we sin or not
Instead we are reminded that it is Christ's righteousness that saves us, not our own. If works are required after one is saved, then they are required to "be" saved (after the fact)! I say that it's God's work that happens in us that makes us into a new creature, so everyone who gets saved has a new life, a new identity, but if they sin and even if they sin terribly, that is not breaking a requisite for salvation in this dispensation of Mystery and Grace.
