ARGH!!! Calvinism makes me furious!!!

[Clete]

Originally posted by Z Man

You still don't get it? Figures..

David's wives committed adulty, not against their wills, but because they wanted to. And the whole ordeal was ordained - decreed by God in 2 Samuel. You're arguing against a lost cause because Scripture will always stand, whether you agree with it or not.

If you still reject the idea that God ordains/predestines and that we are still held responsible, re-read Genesis 20:


Genesis 20:3-6
But God came to Abimelech in a dream by night, and said to him, "Indeed you are a dead man because of the woman whom you have taken, for she is a man's wife." But Abimelech had not come near her; and he said, "Lord, will You slay a righteous nation also? Did he not say to me, 'She is my sister'? And she, even she herself said, 'He is my brother.' In the integrity of my heart and innocence of my hands I have done this." And God said to him in a dream, "Yes, I know that you did this in the integrity of your heart. For I also withheld you from sinning against Me; therefore I did not let you touch her.


Abimelech was responsible for his innocence, but he was only innocent because God allowed him to be.

Now I'm doing the best I can to be nice and explain this rather 'odd', yet Scriptural truth to you (that God predestines and we are responsible at the same time), but Paul had a better approach to answering people like you who questioned God's sovereignty. He pretty much told them to keep their mouths shut, since they are nothing but a lowly human being:


Romans 9:19-20
You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God?


But I won't go there for now, because I trust you value Scripture enough to take it for what it says and trust in it alone...

Z Man,

Please give me a break, okay?
I do get it. I get it so much that it literally bores the crap out of me! How many times can I make the same arguments on the same topic?

Look, I think this is a really important topic and I've tried to take this in a fresh direction so I'm going to give this one last chance.
Please respond to the point I made in
Post 1424 again. I'm going to pretend that you didn't make this post that I have quoted above. It does the conversation no good, if you simply restate your position in different words, using yet another self-contradictory argument.
Please explain from a logical standpoint how your comments, and therefore your position, are not contradictory. Or are you saying that you understand that the Bible is self-contradictory and that you are fine with that. Either way, is fine. I just want for someone to actually respond to the points I make instead of just acting like I didn't even say anything important, especially when I make the point in direct response to their having chided me about the fact that I had decided to let this conversation go in the first place! Talk about irritating!

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Z Man]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

Z Man,

Please give me a break, okay?
I do get it. I get it so much that it literally bores the crap out of me! How many times can I make the same arguments on the same topic?

Look, I think this is a really important topic and I've tried to take this in a fresh direction so I'm going to give this one last chance.
Please respond to the point I made in
Post 1424 again. I'm going to pretend that you didn't make this post that I have quoted above. It does the conversation no good, if you simply restate your position in different words, using yet another self-contradictory argument.
Please explain from a logical standpoint how your comments, and therefore your position, are not contradictory. Or are you saying that you understand that the Bible is self-contradictory and that you are fine with that. Either way, is fine. I just want for someone to actually respond to the points I make instead of just acting like I didn't even say anything important, especially when I make the point in direct response to their having chided me about the fact that I had decided to let this conversation go in the first place! Talk about irritating!

Resting in Him,
Clete

Clete,

Your argument is invalid in premise 1 and 2 of Post 1424. You assume that God ordaining things means that He 'forces' people to do things against their will. And that's not the case. I haven't ignored your post; I answered it directly! I thought I proved my point with Scriptures, but obviously, that isn't good enough for you.

 

[Clete]

Z Man,

Do you not believe that our wills are predestined? That is, our desires and intentions, the things we want to do. Do you not believe that our wants are predestined along with our actions themselves?

You can elaborate if you wish, but I would like a simple yes or no to begin with.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Rolf Ernst]

Some things seem to be beyond the mindset of those who hold an arminian or open view of scripture:

1. When God, in judgement against men, gives them up to their own ways; i.e., when He is no longer pleased to restrain them from the wickedness of their own nature, they straightway plummet into that wickedness which is within their own nature.

2. When they do so, they don't do so because God is "forcing them" to sin as arminian and open view people believe. They do so because God has exercised His judgement against them by withholding from them the measure of common grace that would have held them up above the level of what they are in themselves.

3. God is sovereign in applying His gifts of grace--both covenanted grace and common grace; meaning that grace is a GIFT of God and no man has a RIGHT to any of His gifts. NOR DO THEY HAVE ANY ACCESS TO THEM BY THEIR OWN POWER. THEY ARE GIVEN--APPLIED-- BY GOD. All rights pertaining to His GIFTS belong only to Him. Therefore men have no right to complain against Him for leaving them to the wickedness of their own nature.

4. God has the right to execute judgement against men by leaving them to their own devices. It is altogether FITTING that He exercise judgement by leaving them to their own nature, allowing them, in their wickedness, to bring upon themselves that judgement of which they are deserving. It is just as when He said to the rebellious people, "...therefore your own backslidings will correct you."

5. A fifth thing which seems to be beyond the comprehension of arminian/open view mindsets is the FACT that in association with ANY act or providence, God's motives are ALWAYS, WITHOUT FAIL, PURE AND JUST even though in acts or providences which involve evil the motives of His instruments is wicked, and

6. Wicked men who act out of wicked motives CANNOT claim that their motives were pure and just simply because God's motive in what transpired were just and pure. NEITHER CAN WICKED MEN ATTRIBUTE TO GOD WICKEDNESS BECAUSE HIS JUST AND PURE PURPOSES WERE EXECUTED THROUGH THE USE OF WICKED INSTRUMENTS WHOSE INTENTS WERE EVIL.

Finally, I say again, you will never find an arminian or open view advocate who understands these things because if they ever do comprehend these FACTS, they will no longer want to be associated with either arminianism or the open view of scripture.

 

[Clete]

Originally posted by Rolf Ernst

Some things seem to be beyond the mindset of those who hold an arminian or open view of scripture:

1. When God, in judgement against men, gives them up to their own ways; i.e., when He is no longer pleased to restrain them from the wickedness of their own nature, they straightway plummet into that wickedness which is within their own nature.

There is nothing in this statement that argues against the Open View.

2. When they do so, they don't do so because God is "forcing them" to sin as arminian and open view people believe.

Umm, What? Neither the Arminians nor us Open Theists believe this. It is the reformed view that teaches that all things are predestined, not us.

They do so because God has exercised His judgement against them by withholding from them the measure of common grace that would have held them up above the level of what they are in themselves.

Unscriptural!
Saying it doesn't make it so. Care to prove this Biblically?

3. God is sovereign in applying His gifts of grace--both covenanted grace and common grace; meaning that grace is a GIFT of God and no man has a RIGHT to any of His gifts. NOR DO THEY HAVE ANY ACCESS TO THEM BY THEIR OWN POWER. THEY ARE GIVEN--APPLIED-- BY GOD. All rights pertaining to His GIFTS belong only to Him. Therefore men have no right to complain against Him for leaving them to the wickedness of their own nature.

Sounds good but your words are loaded with meaning that makes this statement Biblically indefensible. I’ve refuted it so many times I'm sick of it (with no substantive response, by the way).

4. God has the right to execute judgement against men by leaving them to their own devices. It is altogether FITTING that He exercise judgement by leaving them to their own nature, allowing them, in their wickedness, to bring upon themselves that judgement of which they are deserving. It is just as when He said to the rebellious people, "...therefore your own backslidings will correct you."

This statement makes no argument against the Open View. In fact, it seems to argue for it!

5. A fifth thing which seems to be beyond the comprehension of arminian/open view mindsets is the FACT that in association with ANY act of providence, God's motives are ALWAYS, WITHOUT FAIL, PURE AND JUST even though in acts or providences which involve evil the motives of His instruments is wicked, and

We totally understand the position, we just acknowledge that the logical incoherence of it proves it to be false.

6. Wicked men who act out of wicked motives CANNOT claim that their motives were pure and just simply because God's motive in what transpired were just and pure.

Agreed, but again, this makes no argument against the Open View. This also sounds like a statement in favor of Open Theism not against it.

NEITHER CAN WICKED MEN ATTRIBUTE TO GOD WICKEDNESS BECAUSE HIS JUST AND PURE PURPOSES WERE EXECUTED THROUGH THE USE OF WICKED INSTRUMENTS WHOSE INTENTS WERE EVIL.

No one has suggested otherwise. Indeed, I have said this very thing! Are you sure you're not an Open Theist?

Finally, I say again, you will never find an arminian or open view advocate who understands these things because if they ever do comprehend these FACTS, they will no longer want to be associated with either arminianism or the open view of scripture.

You are delusional! Nothing you've said is even an argument against the Open View! Do you even understand what it is that we believe? I really doubt that you do because, for one thing, Arminianism and Open Theism is not the same thing. I am not an Arminian and very few Arminians are Open Theists. In fact, I would be kicked out of most Free Will Baptist churches (BIG TIME ARMINIANS).

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Rolf Ernst]

Clete--God exercises His judgement against men by with holding from them the measure of common grace that would have held them up above the level of what they are in themselves.

You ask me to prove this biblically?? Suggestion--you try to disprove it against the proof you requested.

Do you understand Romans chapter one? Do you understand what Paul meant when he three times (verses 24, 26, and 28), after the people had defiled their knowledge of Him said, "therefore, God gave them up..."? Do you know what the Psalmist was saying in Ps.81:11,12?

There is your proof. Now find an argument against that proof.

 

[servent101]

Rolf Earnest

There is your proof. Now find an argument against that proof.

does the proof have to be in the closed canon of Christian Scripture only?

With Christ's Love

Servent101

 

[Rolf Ernst]

Servant 101--Would you be willing to accept anything as God's truth relative to doctrine that could not be verified by scripture? I wouldn't.

 

[Z Man]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

Z Man,

Do you not believe that our wills are predestined? That is, our desires and intentions, the things we want to do. Do you not believe that our wants are predestined along with our actions themselves?

You can elaborate if you wish, but I would like a simple yes or no to begin with.

Resting in Him,
Clete

I do believe that everything is predestined, yes, including our wills. But it doesn't mean that we suddenly have urges and seem to 'supernaturally' do things that we really and truly do not wish to do; as if we are puppets on a string who are being pulled this way and that AGAINST the very course of actions we wish to take. Everything that we do, every decision we make, we do it because we want to do it. But it was predestined long before our time. Just because God ordains/predestines something doesn't mean He's forcing people to do that certain thing AGAINST their will. That's where your invalidness lies - your assumptions are wrong in that area.

When you assume that God ordaining things means that He's forcing people to do things against their will, I imagine someone who is bound from head to toe and who is completely paralyzed all over their body. And God comes along and directs every move of the individual, whether the individual wishes to do those things or not. All the person can do is watch as their life is 'pulled along on strings' by God. That's not the case.

When God ordained/predestined that Judas should live and betray Jesus Christ, He never 'forced' him to commit his sins. Judas willingly betrayed Christ. God created/ordained/predestined the life of Judas for this very reason. Nevertheless, Judas was reponsible for his own, selfish desires that lead to his sins. God doesn't 'force' people to do anything - He doesn't have to! We all do what we wish. But what we wish is exaclty what God predestined from the beginning.

Proverbs 16:9
A man's heart plans his way, But the Lord directs his steps.

 

[godrulz]

Still does not compute...see previous posts on other threads over the last year:nono:

 

[Z Man]

Originally posted by godrulz

Still does not compute...

Neither does the Trinity, but you don't reject that, do you?

Stop rejecting Scripture simply because you do not understand it:

Isaiah 55:8
"My thoughts are completely different from yours," says the LORD. "And my ways are far beyond anything you could imagine."

 

[servent101]

Rolf

Would you be willing to accept anything as God's truth relative to doctrine that could not be verified by scripture? I wouldn't.

It seems to me that the necessity to accept anything as God's truth relative to doctrine that can only be verified by Scripture is something that is not verified by Scripture.

The Bible was closed by people who were told to do so by the conquering Roman Emperor - so that the Christians could have their own religion just like every other religion with it's own book.

None of the Author's actually wrote anything for a "closed book" that would be seen as the Definitive Source of all Spiritual knowledge under the sun - sort of takes everything they wrote and what Jesus said out of context, and perverts the whole lot of Scripture to useless dogma.

With Christ’s Love

Servent101

 

[godrulz]

Originally posted by Z Man

Neither does the Trinity, but you don't reject that, do you?

Stop rejecting Scripture simply because you do not understand it:

Isaiah 55:8
"My thoughts are completely different from yours," says the LORD. "And my ways are far beyond anything you could imagine."

This context is about salvation and a universal call to the thirsty to come. They will receive forgiveness. It is not a proof text to say that God is inscrutable or illogical in His ways. It is not about TULIP, but shows that God's revelation > reason. He reveals Himself as responsive and providential, not predestining everything in the universe (evil is absolutely contrary to His will and nature...it was not decreed).

 

[Z Man]

Originally posted by godrulz

This context is about salvation and a universal call to the thirsty to come. They will receive forgiveness. It is not a proof text to say that God is inscrutable or illogical in His ways. It is not about TULIP, but shows that God's revelation > reason. He reveals Himself as responsive and providential, not predestining everything in the universe (evil is absolutely contrary to His will and nature...it was not decreed).

The Scriptures are suppose to blow your mind, but it's obvious that you won't let it...

 

[Z Man]

Originally posted by godrulz

This context is about salvation and a universal call to the thirsty to come. They will receive forgiveness.

Three questions for ya:

• 1) Who are the thirsty?
  
  2) How do they know that they are thirsty?
  
  3) And, how do they know, assuming they somehow found out that they are thirsty, that God will fulfill that thirst?

 

[godrulz]

Originally posted by Z Man

The Scriptures are suppose to blow your mind, but it's obvious that you won't let it...

Try thinking about the uncreated Creator. This is revealed in Scripture and it blows my mind and leads to humble worship. Is. 55 is not a proof text for irrationality to justify incoherent beliefs.

 

[godrulz]

Originally posted by Z Man

Three questions for ya:

• 1) Who are the thirsty?
  
  2) How do they know that they are thirsty?
  
  3) And, how do they know, assuming they somehow found out that they are thirsty, that God will fulfill that thirst?

This is a call to 'ALL' (not the so-called 'elect') who are thirsty to come (cf. Jesus calling ALL who were weary and heavy laden...He gives rest). It may primarily refer to wandering Israel in this context with application to the world.

They know they are thirsty by the work of the Spirit convicting and convincing of truth. There is also a God-shaped vacuum. We know when we are physically thirsty or hungry. This is built into us. Likewise, men know they are spiritually empty and search for God as He draws them. God Himself deals with us to know that we are empty and need Him.

God reveals Himself as the one who will fulfill the thirst. Jesus called for us to come to Him for life, light, water, bread, etc.

Is. 55:6 We are responsible to seek Him and call on Him. He stirs the desire, but we must come in repentant faith. Salvation is not unilateral. One should not read TULIP ideas back into this passage or any other.

 

[Rolf Ernst]

Servant101--Read the closing verses of Revelation. If anyone adds anything to His word, He will add to them the plagues written in it. If they take anything out, He will take their part from the book of life.

"all scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof...that the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto every good work."

Those two texts seem like a rejection of everything that is not substantiated by scripture. If you want to read the koran, the book of mormon, and other such works for your own inspiration, your wish still won't elevate pagan works to the level of scripture.

 

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by Z Man

I do believe that everything is predestined, yes, including our wills.
Proverbs 16:9
A man's heart plans his way, But the Lord directs his steps.

if our wills are predestined, then how can the first part of the verse be correct? would not the Lord have predestined the heart and what then would the man plan? how is the man doing any planning if God predestined it? doesn't then this verse actually argue against the predestination of all things? how else can we honestly say that it's the man who plans his way?

 

[servent101]

Rolf

-Read the closing verses of Revelation. If anyone adds anything to His word, He will add to them the plagues written in it. If they take anything out, He will take their part from the book of life.

"all scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof...that the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto every good work."

By attributing what John wrote at the end of the letter of Revalation to the whole Bible - you are inflicting upon yourself all those curses - in a literal sense.

All Scripture is not translated right - properly translated the verse reads All that is Written is profitalble for teaching for reproof etc etc.

There are no authors of the Bible who wrote any letter in context that it would be used in a collection of writngs that would be a closed book used to define ALL Spiritual Insight - it is rediculous, and if you could get your head around that one - you would understand how insane what comes out of turning some very Inspired Writings into the Difiative source of Spiritual Knowledge becomes something completely insane.

Revalation is written about revalation - Paul never intended His writings to be used in a closed book. Teh closed book takes everything out of it's context.

With Christ's Love

Servent101