Are there Saints In Heaven? Poll Question

[Rosenritter]

What do you mean by "unlike us"?

Jesus said, "I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God." (John 20:17)

We have the same God as our co-heir Jesus.

I would be happy to explain. Jesus is God. We are not God. Unlike us, Jesus is our God. In the words of Thomas, he is "My Lord and my God."

We may all be heirs, but we are heirs in a different sense. We are heirs by grace, whereas Jesus is an heir by divine right.

Psa 82:8 Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.

Heb 1:4-8
(4) Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
(5) For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
(6) And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
(7) And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
(8) But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

So in what sense are we co-heirs? In respect to the thing inherited, not the method by which we are (or became) heirs.

Rom 8:17
(17) And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

The inheritance is glory and eternal life. We are not immortal, but this may be received as a free gift, for those that believe on Christ. Jesus Christ, on the other hand, is the source of that life, and he has life in himself just as the Father has life in himself.

Joh 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Mat 19:29
(29) And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.

Joh 5:25-26
(25) Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
(26) For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

Jesus, being God manifest in the flesh, inherits glory and eternal life by right. We, on the other hand, become co-heirs as we are grafted in through grace and forgiveness of sins, as we partake of the Bread of Life that came down from heaven. God and Jesus is the source of that life, we are the recipients of that life. We are the creation, and unlike us, Jesus is our Creator.

Joh 1:1-4
(1) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
(2) The same was in the beginning with God.
(3) All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
(4) In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

Jesus did come in the form of the suffering servant. Yet this is irrelevant with respect to who he truly is. We may be servants, and the angels may be our fellow-servants who say "See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant... worship God" but it is unto Jesus that it is said, "Let all the angels of God worship him."

Mat 14:33
(33) Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.

Rev 19:10
(10) And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

That's what I mean when I say, "Unlike us, Jesus is our God." He is. He is the King of Glory that ascends to heaven. We are not.

 

[jamie]

We may all be heirs, but we are heirs in a different sense. We are heirs by grace, whereas Jesus is an heir by divine right.

What was Jesus' divine right?

 

[God's Truth]

Yes, Jesus had the mind of the Spirit, but they are different persons.

"Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years." (Revelation 20:6)

We will be priests of both.

Jesus had the mind of the Spirit?!

No, the Lord Jesus Christ IS THE SPIRIT.

Just ask me for the scriptures if you care about them.

 

[Rosenritter]

What was Jesus' divine right?

It seems like you are asking me to repeat myself.

As the creator of men and angels, it is his right that they worship him (see Hebrews chapter 1). As the Creator of all things and giver of life, immortality and eternal life as his by divine right (see John chapter 1). Quite a few things could be said to be his divine right, but worship, glory, and immortality are among them. The very identifying names set aside exclusively for God are among those that are his by divine right.

The Creator that creates life has the right to that same life. When he steps into this world, he has that right by inheritance, not as a gift, but by divine right because it was always his. Thus, divine plus right equals divine right.

I am trying to avoid filling several hundred pages with interwoven proof and example. It seems that you have an objection. Is it something you are able to specifically manifest into words that I might understand? If not here, perhaps by private message?

 

[jamie]

The Creator that creates life has the right to that same life. When he steps into this world, he has that right by inheritance, not as a gift, but by divine right because it was always his. Thus, divine plus right equals divine right.

Christ surrendered his divine rights so as to become one of us.

We have the same spiritual parents that Jesus has.

 

[Rosenritter]

Christ surrendered his divine rights so as to become one of us.

We have the same spiritual parents that Jesus has.

Where do you see that Jesus surrendered his right to reign over his own creation, to raise the dead to life, to raise himself to life? There's a difference between whether Jesus exercised the extent of his divine right, compared to whether he abdicated his divine right.

John 5:21-27 KJV
(21) For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
(22) For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
(23) That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
(24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
(25) Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
(26) For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
(27) And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

Did I understand you correctly, not that you dispute that Jesus is the Creator of all life, but rather you claim he surrendered his right over all creation? It seems to me that Jesus does confirm that it is his right to ultimately decide who lives and dies. Seeing as we are talking about the Divine Right over life and death, and the possession of immortality within Himself, what else do we need to look at here?

 

[oatmeal]

Dead means

a. alive

b. dead

Alive means

a. alive

b. dead

What is the purpose of a resurrection?

a. to raise the dead to life

b. to raise the alive to life

Why did Jesus and other saints raise people from the dead?

a. they were dead, not alive

b. they were alive not dead

 

[jamie]

Did I understand you correctly, not that you dispute that Jesus is the Creator of all life, but rather you claim he surrendered his right over all creation?

God is not human. Christ surrendered his God status to become human to reconcile humans to the Most High through death.

God has inherent life, he can't die, but Christ agreed to redeem humans and angels before Adam was created by him.

Christ willingly became Jesus, the Savior. It is through him we receive life forever with him.

 

[Rosenritter]

God is not human. Christ surrendered his God status to become human to reconcile humans to the Most High through death.

God has inherent life, he can't die, but Christ agreed to redeem humans and angels before Adam was created by him.

Christ willingly became Jesus, the Savior. It is through him we receive life forever with him.

May I paraphrase that in an effort to understand?

"God was not human,
God surrendered his God status to become human,
... for the purpose of reconciling humans to the Most High through his death"
... whom you no longer call God but you do call Christ.

Q: Who is the most High? If Christ used to be God, who took the job opening?
Q: Do you believe there used to be two Gods, or one God, who was lesser than the most High, plus the Most High?
Q: Who created the heavens and the earth? God (who became Christ) or the Most High?

"God has inherent life, and cannot die,
... but Christ agreed to ... die."

Q: Whom did God (whom you now call Christ) agree with?

 

[jamie]

... whom you no longer call God but you do call Christ.

Jesus said that there is only one true God.

"And this is eternal life, that they may know You the only true God and Jesus Christ whom You have sent." (John 17:3)

The one true God is the Most High, everyone else is less high.

The only true God is in Jesus Christ and he in us.

"And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one, I in them and You in Me that they may be made perfect in one"
(John 17;22-23)

There is only one God and Father for us. Jesus Christ is not our father.

"One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all." (Ephesians 4:6)

Jesus Christ is a God person, but he is not our God.

"Yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things and we for Him, and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we live."
(1 Corinthians 8:6)

"For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus" (1 Timothy 2:5)

 

[Rosenritter]

May I paraphrase that in an effort to understand?

"God was not human,
God surrendered his God status to become human,
... for the purpose of reconciling humans to the Most High through his death"
... whom you no longer call God but you do call Christ.

Q: Who is the most High? If Christ used to be God, who took the job opening?
Q: Do you believe there used to be two Gods, or one God, who was lesser than the most High, plus the Most High?
Q: Who created the heavens and the earth? God (who became Christ) or the Most High?

"God has inherent life, and cannot die,
... but Christ agreed to ... die."

Q: Whom did God (whom you now call Christ) agree with?

Jamie, I'm having trouble figuring out what you mean. Would you be able to answer the (Q)uestions with in-line response?

 

[Rosenritter]

Jesus said that there is only one true God.

Jesus Christ is a God person, but he is not our God.

How do you have a God person who is not our God?

Joh 20:28 KJV
(28) And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

Was Thomas mistaken?

"Yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things and we for Him, and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we live." (1 Corinthians 8:6)

"For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus" (1 Timothy 2:5)

In spite of your interpretation, do you acknowledge that per grammatical usage, those passages (above) apply equally well to one God and one Lord Jesus Christ, one and the same?

 

[jamie]

In spite of your interpretation, do you acknowledge that per grammatical usage, those passages (above) apply equally well to one God and one Lord Jesus Christ, one and the same?

Jesus was no longer human, he was the firstfruit of the firstfruits.

Only God has eternal life. Not humans and not angels.

Jesus Christ is the image of the Father and he is training us to be like him.

We are not like the Father by nature. Our old person must die and we must become new.

Jesus was the first human to do this, we're next.

 

[jamie]

BTW, do you accept that Jesus said our Father is the only true God?

And do you accept that Jesus would know?

 

[Rosenritter]

Jesus was no longer human, he was the firstfruit of the firstfruits.

Only God has eternal life. Not humans and not angels.

Jesus Christ is the image of the Father and he is training us to be like him.

We are not like the Father by nature. Our old person must die and we must become new.

Jesus was the first human to do this, we're next.

You're not actually answering any of my questions...

Only God has eternal life? Not humans and not angels? I agree.

1 Timothy 6:14-16 KJV
(14) That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
(15) Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
(16) Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

By your own definition, you have acknowledged Jesus as God. And it does not say that he is one of others that hath immortality, but that he only hath immortality. Not Satan, nor the saints, nor the angels in heaven. The Lord Jesus Christ hath immortality.

Then we have that passage already mentioned, where Jesus says that he has life in himself. As the Father has life in himself.

John 5:26 KJV
(26) For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

If immortality and eternal life are your measuring stick of how we can determine who is our God, we were looking at him.

 

[Rosenritter]

BTW, do you accept that Jesus said our Father is the only true God?

And do you accept that Jesus would know?

I accept that there is only one true God, and I also accept that Jesus was that true God, in the flesh, speaking with us without the smoke and thunder of Mount Sinai. These are not conditions that are exclusive of each other. Yes, I accept every word Jesus spoke.

Do you allow that God is large (or powerful) enough to exist in more than one place at a time? With proper positioning, I can be in four different states of the union at once. Again, with proper positioning, I can exist on both land, air, and sea at the same time. Do you disallow that God can position himself on earth, while remaining in heaven, at the same time?

Because it certainly makes things a lot easier if we don't have to discount most of the things Jesus says concerning who really was.

Revelation 1:17-18 KJV
(17) And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
(18) I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Isaiah 44:6 KJV
(6) Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Do you accept that Jesus would know what the "I am the first, and I am the last" meant from the prophet Isaiah, when he uses this title to identify himself in Revelation? Three times in Isaiah it is used, each and every time to identify the one and only unique God. And Jesus uses it four times in Revelation. For himself.

Now, I can understand why Jesus would have allowed people to underestimate who he was when he walked the earth. How else would they have crucified him? But can you think of any reason why he would steal God's unique names and titles for identification if they did not properly belong to him in the first place?

 

[Rosenritter]

@jamie, would you mind if I used this tangent we are on to point back to the thread topic? I need to ask a question or two first:

1) Are there saints in heaven? What about Job? Or David? Or Abraham? Are they there?

Spoiler

The poll above says that you voted "no." Is this still your understanding?

2) Did Jesus ascend to heaven? If yes, is he uniquely different in this regard, or is there anyone else that has ascended to heaven with him, before him, or after him?

If you will answer these questions, I can tie our discussion about Jesus back into this thread. Thanks.

 

[jamie]

2) Did Jesus ascend to heaven? If yes, is he uniquely different in this regard, or is there anyone else that has ascended to heaven with him, before him, or after him?

Jesus ascended into the air and a cloud hid him from view.

"Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up and a cloud received Him out of their sight." (Acts 1:9)

And then there is the heaven where stars and other celestial objects are.

But there is the heaven where God is. This heaven is the spiritual dimension that surrounds the earth.

Jesus is the only person born of woman who has ascended to God's dimension.

Jesus said, "No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven." (John 3:13)

Footnotes: John 3:13 NU-Text omits who is in heaven.

 

[jamie]

Isaiah 44:6 KJV
(6) Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Christ is the first to be born of the Spirit.

Christ is the last, Hebrew acharyon meaning to come.

The word God is Elohim, a noun like family, group, nation, etc.

 

[Rosenritter]

Jesus ascended into the air and a cloud hid him from view.

"Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up and a cloud received Him out of their sight." (Acts 1:9)

And then there is the heaven where stars and other celestial objects are.

But there is the heaven where God is. This heaven is the spiritual dimension that surrounds the earth.

Jesus is the only person born of woman who has ascended to God's dimension.

Jesus said, "No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven." (John 3:13)

Footnotes: John 3:13 NU-Text omits who is in heaven.

Thank you for the well supported answer. I'd like to speak about Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved by God by miracles and signs. It assume that we have no disagreement that he was crucified, slain, and that God raised him up, that it was not possible that he should be held by death.

Spoiler

Acts 2:22-24 KJV
(22) Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
(23) Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
(24) Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

David spoke of the Messiah in the Psalms. On one place, he says "for thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption" and this he speaks not of himself, but another (see Psalm 16:10). David died, and was buried, and his sepulcher is with us to this day. Jesus of Nazareth, this man approved by God, was raised from the dead, and his flesh did not see corruption.

Spoiler

Acts 2:25-37 KJV
(25) For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
(26) Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
(27) Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
(28) Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
(29) Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
(30) Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
(31) He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
(32) This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

The Psalmist writes further of this man whom God has exalted, and whom has ascended to the heavens, as witnessed by the disciples on the earth (see Acts 1:9). He speaks of one who who shall ascend this hill of the LORD, who shall stand in his holy place. One who has clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully. He shall receive the blessing from the LORD, and the righteousness from the God of his salvation. This is the man that the Psalmist says shall ascend into heaven. Yet like before, this is not David, for David has not ascended to heaven. Who has ascended to heaven?

Spoiler

(33) Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
(34) For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
(35) Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
(36) Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
(37) Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

Where is this written? Let us look in the most famous psalms of Psalms, where David begins to tell us of Jesus, whom was crucified.

Psalms 22:14-16 KJV
(14) I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.
(15) My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.
(16) For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.

Psalms 22:30-31 KJV
(30) A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.
(31) They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this.

The Psalm doesn't stop there. It continues into the 23rd Psalm, the well known and beloved, "The Lord is my Shepherd" - and we know that our Messiah (the annointed) perished on that cross, and entered that shadow of death.

Psalms 23:4-6 KJV
(4) Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.
(5) Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over.
(6) Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever.

Have you ever wondered why Peter spoke to his audience of Jews, and bothered to say that David has not ascended to the heavens? That's because there's something very significant about one who does ascend to heaven. The 23rd Psalm doesn't stop with our story there, as it continues...

Psalms 24:1-4 KJV
(1) A Psalm of David. The earth is the LORD'S, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein.
(2) For he hath founded it upon the seas, and established it upon the floods.
(3) Who shall ascend into the hill of the LORD? or who shall stand in his holy place?
(4) He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully.

With the 22nd and the 23rd Psalm leading into this, and Peter's reference to who has not (and by implication, comparing to who has) ascended to heaven, who does that sound like so far?

Psalms 24:5-8 KJV
(5) He shall receive the blessing from the LORD, and righteousness from the God of his salvation.
(6) This is the generation of them that seek him, that seek thy face, O Jacob. Selah.
(7) Lift up your heads, O ye gates; and be ye lift up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in.
(8) Who is this King of glory?

@jamie, here is my question: Who is this King of Glory that ascends to heaven, receiving his blessing from the LORD, and righteousness from the God of his salvation?

Spoiler

Psalms 24:8-10 KJV
(8) Who is this King of glory? The LORD strong and mighty, the LORD mighty in battle.
(9) Lift up your heads, O ye gates; even lift them up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in.
(10) Who is this King of glory? The LORD of hosts, he is the King of glory. Selah.

Who is this King of Glory?

Spoiler

1 Corinthians 2:7-8 KJV
(7) But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
(8) Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.