Do you believe there are saints in heaven? All of them? Some of them? What about prophets in heaven?
Matthew 27:52-53 KJV -
Matthew 27:52-53 KJV -
Are there Saints In Heaven? Poll Question
- Thread starter patrick jane
- Start date
Revelation 6:9-10 KJV -
Revelation 5:8 KJV - Revelation 8:4 KJV -
http://www.catholic.com/tracts/the-intercession-of-the-saints
Thus the saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth. .... Otherwise there would be no remembrance of them at the altar of God
Thus the saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth. .... Otherwise there would be no remembrance of them at the altar of God
Not only do those in heaven pray with us, they also pray for us. In the book of Revelation, John sees that "the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Rev. 5:8). Thus the saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth
Revelation 4:4 KJV - Revelation 4:10 KJV - Revelation 4:11 KJV -
When do the 24 elders arrive in heaven? Are they there now?
When do the 24 elders arrive in heaven? Are they there now?
Bump - VOTE !
Rosenritter
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Originally Posted by patrick jane
So, it's only AFTER the rapture and 2nd Coming that anybody is in heaven? Who are the 24 elders and what are they doing in heaven?
That is what is laid out for us in scripture, according to the gospel as preached by Paul, and consistent with what we are told throughout the Hebrew scriptures about the nature of death. It also agrees with what Jesus used as a proof of the resurrection to the Sadducees, where as "existing in heaven after death" would contradict his own proof.
What are the twenty-four elders? I could also ask what the four beasts are that are before His throne. They are part of a vision, but I think it likely that they represent certain angels or types of angels. Why are there only twenty-four elders and only four beasts? The number is probably either chosen or symbolic.
Revelation 5:8-11 KJV
(8) And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
(9) And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
(10) And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
(11) And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
Notice that the beasts and the elders both sing this song. If the elders must be human saints then by the same logic the beasts must be also. But the elders and the beasts can both be types of angels without requiring any contradiction from previous scripture.
Rosenritter
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Tell me, do the words of Christ have any significance on this question? I've already shown that the gospel as told by Paul precludes any saint being in heaven before Christ's return and our resurrection.
Rosenritter
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I am not persuaded by Catholic tradition. I could be persuaded by scripture.
OK.
So where did Moses and Elijah come from when they appeared with Christ? (Matthew 17:3)
Rosenritter
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Matthew 17:9 KJV
(9) And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.
They were elements of the vision. However, if they were not elements of a vision, then Moses and Elias could have been raised from the dead for their appearance and laid back to rest afterwards. However, considering that the characters of Moses and Elias are also symbols (Moses and the prophets) I am inclined to believed Jesus in Matthew 17:9 when he called their experience a vision.
Rosenritter
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For the record, I am using the term "saints" to mean those that belong to God, as used in both OId and New Testaments, rather than by the Roman Catholic honorific reserved for certain Christians.Saints can be living here and now, and they are raised at Christ's return. Examples below:
Acts 9:32 KJV
(32) And it came to pass, as Peter passed throughout all quarters, he came down also to the saints which dwelt at Lydda.
1 Thessalonians 3:13 KJV
(13) To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.
Acts 9:32 KJV
(32) And it came to pass, as Peter passed throughout all quarters, he came down also to the saints which dwelt at Lydda.
1 Thessalonians 3:13 KJV
(13) To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.
Thanks.
I'm not sure that using the word 'vision' makes it something that did not actually happen.
Or perhaps it was a vision of something that would take place at a later time. (Such as Paul's vision Acts 9:12)
Over a billion Catholics believe there are saints in heaven now -
What about the thief on the cross next to Jesus? Jesus told him that he would join Him in paradise soon
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All obedient believers are saints. The Catholic Church doesn't say otherwise, they simply canonize the saints who are particularly great.
Which is redundant, because if you can pray to canonized saints and you can pray to your grandmother, then what's the point?
Protestantism doesn't hold to any of that- you pray only to God.
Which is redundant, because if you can pray to canonized saints and you can pray to your grandmother, then what's the point?
Protestantism doesn't hold to any of that- you pray only to God.
Rosenritter
New member
Yes, Jesus did say that he would be with him in Paradise. The thief will be with Jesus in Paradise, when Jesus comes into his kingdom. He comes into his kingdom when he returns as King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
Luke 23:42-43 KJV
(42) And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
(43) And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
Luke 23:42-43 DRB
(42) And he said to Jesus: Lord, remember me when thou shalt come into thy kingdom.
(43) And Jesus said to him: Amen I say to thee: This day thou shalt be with me in paradise.
This might rankle a predestination Calvinist, but the declaration was made that day, not at the beginning of time before the thief ever existed, but as a response to the faith and repentance of the thief, who surrendered and by action gave up all that he had left. I gather that you aren't a predestination Calvinist Patrick?
By the way, I realize that some people misread that passage (and some modern translations) to make it "Today you will be with me in Paradise." That cannot be the correct reading, as Jesus was not in Paradise that day. Jesus died on the cross, was buried in the tomb, and remained there for three days and three nights. When speaking of Jesus, Peter says that his soul was raised from hell. Paradise is not hell, therefore the correct translation uses grammar that denotes that the promising occurred that day, not the fulfillment. The King James and Douay-Rheims above are correct as written.
Acts 2:31-32 KJV
(31) He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
(32) This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
And even directly after those three days and three nights, after being raised, Jesus had still not ascended to heaven.
John 20:17 KJV
(17) Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
So Jesus was not in heaven that day. The thief was not in heaven that day. The thief will be with Jesus when he comes into his kingdom and the dead are raised. We have his word on that. And if Jesus was God, then His word is good.
We don't know that the man was a thief, he might have been convicted of sedition or rebellion. Some people did not adjust well to Roman domination. And some were simply falsely accused and convicted.
Rosenritter
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The malefactor on the cross, then.
Luke 23:32-33 KJV
And there were also two other, malefactors, led with him to be put to death. [33] And when they were come to the place, which is called Calvary, there they crucified him, and the malefactors, one on the right hand, and the other on the left.