Are People Born Dead In Sin?

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

If someone were born "spiritually alive" (which is a concept, and has never been clearly and exegetically defined) without sin (which is a singular articular noun, for which there is an anarthrous form), there would be no need for salvation.

 

[Danoh]

No, that's basically what YOU and many others are saying in the inverse. You're insisting English speakers can automatically know every nuance and aspect and facet of meaning in the text by simply reading an English translation without knowing the difficulties of translation.

It's a sub-conscious arrogance that's difficult to recognize and admit.

I'd be willing to bet that in those areas where you and I might agree doctrinally, we would, though I barely ever turn to "the Greek."

And I mean barely ever.

Just a matter of Basic, Elementary School Reading Comprehension 101 rigorously applied to my KJB.

For either the translators of the KJB all the way back to the first English version to theirs as one collective voice had the Greek nuance down to a level I have absolutely no doubt you alone will never ever achieve an iota of, or they did not, and you are some sort of an Apostle Paul all over again - which you, certainly are not - not by any stretch of your obvious "Greek" delusion.

Whereas; where collective translation might appear off; as usual, that just calls for more time in what is a bit clearer elsewhere in Scripture.

Then again, you and that other name on here often remind me of that old quip "I used to be Shizophrenic, but now WE'RE okay."

Your two as two to my one as one, well, maybe you have a fighting chance against my one :chuckle:

 

[Samie]

And there you have it. You can't and won't even define the central terms you insist you depend upon for your heretical Universal Atonement pseudo-doctrine.

I've already refuted your fallacy; you just can't recognize it. You are yet in your sins.

All mouth. No Bible.

 

[Danoh]

You know the definition, wise and learned one. No need to ask whom you call a child when it comes to theological knowledge. Just refute my position that people are born spiritually alive instead of spiritually dead in sin, that is, IF you are not with me in my position.

There is no verse in the Bible that hints people are born spiritually dead in sin. Instead, the Bible tells us through the wisest man that God made people upright but they sought out many inventions. The Bible also tells us that the Father sent His Son in the LIKENESS of sinful flesh and that He was made in the LIKENESS of men. If it were true that indeed people are born spiritually dead in sin, then Jesus, being sent in the LIKENESS of sinful flesh and made in the LIKENESS of men, should have been born spiritually dead in sin, too.

What nonsense your above is.

Genesis 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Genesis 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

They were now spiritually dead; their spirit no longer able to quicken their bodies...a clock began ticking off their physical accompaniment to that: physical death.

Genesis 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

And so this spiritual still born death passed upon all men - after Adam's own image of same.

Genesis 5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

All have sinned...in Adam.

Our spiritual dna is like that of someone whose very dna has been severely impacted by drug abuse and or a disease such as Aids. We are now born that ourselves.

As it has often been noted; man is a sinner not because he sins - leave that to the worker ants in the error that is their religion of men - rather; man sins because he is a sinner by nature.

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

By his very nature the child of Adam's disobedience, man is born dead in trespasses and sins. He sins because he is being who he is - the child of Adam's disobedience.

Nope. Man is absolutely hopeless.

Ephesians 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved; ) 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

 

[Samie]

And there you have it. You can't and won't even define the central terms you insist you depend upon for your heretical Universal Atonement pseudo-doctrine.

There again. All mouth. No Scriptures.

I've already refuted your fallacy; you just can't recognize it.

I can easily recognize your mouth from Scriptures.

You are yet in your sins.

From your mouth. Not from Scriptures.

From Scriptures, all had been washed clean from sin on Calvary's cross. Eph 1:7; Col 2:13; Rev 1:5

 

[Danoh]

What is needed is a spiritual circumcision; or cutting off all around of this spirtual cancer from our spirit - through the faith of the operation of God.

That accomplished, spiritual newness of life is the result - a reversal of things - that of being spiritually dead unto sin and spiritually alive unto God, Rom. 6.

 

[Danoh]

EVERYONE in CHRIST if HE tarries will die physically which is a fact, and death is the result of sin !

Yep.

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

I'd be willing to bet that in those areas where you and I might agree doctrinally, we would, though I barely ever turn to "the Greek."

And I mean barely ever.

And you'd lose that bet, but you can't fathom that. And I can tell you barely turn to the Greek. I can always immediately tell who has actual language knowledge and who doesn't; and usually where they are on a sliding scale.

Just a matter of Basic, Elementary School Reading Comprehension 101 rigorously applied to my KJB.

But it's your basic elememtary school (English) reading comprehension that has NO grid whatsoever for anarthrous noun forms as you automatically substitute English indefinite articles or verbs for those nouns.

For either the translators of the KJB all the way back to the first English version to theirs as one collective voice had the Greek nuance down to a level I have absolutely no doubt you alone will never ever achieve an iota of,

Which is why I've exhaustively examined their lives and their work, so I would know the fruit of their labors. Erasmus is one of my greatest heroes of the faith, and he said the same things I'm saying and much more in a much more scathing manner. He would strip you to the nubb over your abject arrogant ignorance and applaud everything I've said (though possibly scolding me for being so gracious, etc.)

or they did not, and you are some sort of an Apostle Paul all over again - which you, certainly are not - by any stretch of delusion.

I'm no Paul. But I follow hom as he follows Christ; and I know precisely and exactly what he said by inspiration of the Spirit. His response to your post would be the same and exponentially beyond as Erasmus'. You don't have any idea of the depths of meaning for what Paul wrote. He would scold you and commend those like me.

Whereas; where collective translation might appear off; as usual, that just calls for more time in what is a bit clearer elsewhere in Scripture.

There's no way for you to even know this. I sit and talk with linguists and grammarians, and we almost weep at times over the stubborn adamance of English-only slaves to their own hearts and minds. We've all been there. I lead people out of "there" multiple days every week; and they all say the same thing... "I can't believe I thought I knew what anything meant. I did... Sorta... In a way... But not really at all." And that's after one 2-hour expose' on language structure for nouns.

In language sessions, they all testify it's like being born again over and over out of the death of the letter of their own English nominal understanding. And I don't even teach the Greek language; I just teach them what they need to know in their own native first language of English. Learning Greek isn't necessary, but learning how it translates into English is beyond vital.

You don't and can't know what you don't know. Plus Modernism has installed extreme autonomy and autocentrism in everyone, so nobody can be corrected when they're egregiously wrong.

Then again, you and that other name on here often remind me of that old quip "I used to be Shizophrenic, but now WE'RE okay."

Your two as two to my one as one, well, maybe you have a fighting chance against my one :chuckle:

Unlike you, I'm not fighting. I'm trying to give you (and others) something.

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

All mouth. No Bible.

There again. All mouth. No Scriptures.

I can easily recognize your mouth from Scriptures.

From your mouth. Not from Scriptures.

From Scriptures, all had been washed clean from sin on Calvary's cross. Eph 1:7; Col 2:13; Rev 1:5

Anarthrous Greek nouns throughout scripture ARE scripture, stubborn dullard.

 

[Samie]

What nonsense your above is.

Genesis 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Genesis 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

They were now spiritually dead; their spirit no longer able to quicken their bodies...a clock began ticking off their physical accompaniment to that: physical death.

Genesis 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

And so this spiritual still born death passed upon all men - after Adam's own image of same.

Genesis 5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

All have sinned...in Adam.

Our spiritual dna is like that of someone whose very dna has been severely impacted by drug abuse and or a disease such as Aids. We are now born that ourselves.

As it has often been noted; man is a sinner not because he sins - leave that to the worker ants in the error that is their religion of men - rather; man sins because he is a sinner by nature.

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

By his very nature the child of Adam's disobedience, man is born dead in trespasses and sins. He sins because he is being who he is - the child of Adam's disobedience.

Nope. Man is absolutely hopeless.

Ephesians 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved; ) 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Not a single verse in your quoted verses say that people are born spiritually dead in sin. Instead all sinful acts were committed AFTER one is born, NOT before or during birth.

Here, refute this:

1. The wisest man who ever lived said: God made man upright but they sought out many inventions (Eccl 7:29). So man starts out upright or righteous, NOT born spiritually dead in sin.

2. The Father sent Jesus to this world in the LIKENESS of sinful flesh (Rom 8:3). If the LIKENESS of sinful flesh is to be born spiritually dead in sin then Jesus was born spiritually dead in sin. But because Jesus was not born spiritually dead in sin, therefore, man in sinful flesh is not born spiritually dead in sin, being Jesus' LIKENESS.

3. Jesus was made in the LIKENESS of men (Phil 2:7). So the pattern is the LIKENESS of men. The resulting copy from the pattern is Jesus. As the pattern, so is the copy. But the copy is not born spiritually dead in sin, therefore, the pattern is also not born spiritually dead in sin.

Your turn, Danoh.

 

[Samie]

Anarthrous Greek nouns throughout scripture ARE scripture, stubborn dullard.

No quoted Scriptures but just from your mouth, getting filthier each time it speaks.

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

No quoted Scriptures but just from your mouth, getting filthier each time it speaks.

"Stubborn dullard" is not "filthy", it's fact.

Your false anti-christ doctrine is what is filthy.

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

SCRIPTURE .... Romans 5:12-13

12 Wherefore, as by one man (ANARTHROUS) sin (hamartia ARTICULAR) entered into the world (ARTICULAR), and death (thanatos ARTICULAR) by sin (hamartia ARTICULAR); so death (thanatos ARTICULAR) passed upon all men (ANARTHROUS), for that all have sinned (hamartano - aorist indicative active).

13 For until the law (nomos ANARTHROUS) sin (hamartia ANARTHROUS) was in the world (ANARTHROUS); but sin (hamartia ANARTHROUS) is not imputed when there is no law (nomos ANARTHROUS).


Verse 12 is men (ANARTHROUS) with all other nouns as ARTICULAR.

ALL nouns are ANARTHROUS in Verse 13.

HUGE difference, not understood in English.

 

[Samie]

"Stubborn dullard" is not "filthy", it's fact.

Your false anti-christ doctrine is what is filthy.

You just don't understand it, wise and learned one. It is pro-Christ, NOT anti-Christ. Here:

The Father sent Jesus to earth in the LIKENESS of sinful flesh (Rom 8:3). Was Jesus, being in the LIKENESS of sinful flesh, born spiritually dead in sin? No. That is glaring evidence that sinful flesh is NOT compatible with being born spiritually dead in sin.

Jesus was made in the LIKENESS of men (Phil 2:7). The pattern is the LIKENESS of men; the resulting copy is Jesus. As the pattern, so is the copy. Was Jesus, the copy, born spiritually dead in sin? No. So is the pattern.

And the wisest man said that God made men upright but they sought out many inventions (Eccl 7:29). So people start out upright or righteous, instead of born spiritually dead in sin.

I have just provided Scriptures negating the teaching that people are born spiritually dead in sin. Instead, people are born spiritually alive like Jesus who was sent in the likeness of sinful flesh and made in the likeness of men.

Your turn.

 

[Samie]

SCRIPTURE .... Romans 5:12-13

12 Wherefore, as by one man (ANARTHROUS) sin (hamartia ARTICULAR) entered into the world (ARTICULAR), and death (thanatos ARTICULAR) by sin (hamartia ARTICULAR); so death (thanatos ARTICULAR) passed upon all men (ANARTHROUS), for that all have sinned (hamartano - aorist indicative active).

13 For until the law (nomos ANARTHROUS) sin (hamartia ANARTHROUS) was in the world (ANARTHROUS); but sin (hamartia ANARTHROUS) is not imputed when there is no law (nomos ANARTHROUS).


Verse 12 is men (ANARTHROUS) with all other nouns as ARTICULAR.

ALL nouns are ANARTHROUS in Verse 13.

HUGE difference, not understood in English.

So how does your anarthrous invention address the issue in this thread whether people are born spiritually dead in sin or not?

 

[serpentdove]

Are People Born Dead In Sin?

Yes (Ps 51:5, Jn 3:7). Get yourself a new heart (Eze 36:26).

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

So how does your anarthrous invention address the issue in this thread whether people are born spiritually dead in sin or not?

Why do you insist a construct of the Greek lanuage for nouns is "my invention"? You have no idea how foolish you sound and are.

What you're mistaking is articular and anarthrous noun forms of sin. You can't even begin to understand what I'm referring to. That's why you shouldn't be engaging in theological doctrinal apologetics.

This is like a first-semester high school chemistry student trying to lecture a Chemistry PhD about some nominal thing he thinks he understands better than those who have written his textbooks and taught the subject at a level he'll likely never even attain.

You can't/won't even define death (thanatos) and apply it to both physical and spiritual. You just regurgitate this false concept pretending you understand by saying the words without their definitions and applications. Spiritual death and physical death are two different things, though interconnected.

Sin comes from spiritual death, the wages for which is physical death; but you don't/won't/can't understand what that means. And you don't even know what sin IS, in ANY form except the verb and the resulting noun from the verb.

You're in a huge majority, wandering around like zombies and presuming to self-determine what scripture means from a glossed nominal reading by scattered English-only proof-texting. It's the worst epidemic in human history, and it's undermining the Christian Faith.

You think you're doing God a service. You're just interposing singular anarthrous sin for singular articular sin in oppostion to their use and meaning in the text. You can never know this from an English perspective. Never. It requires being renewed in the spirit of the mind. Your foundational epistemology has enslaved you to the patterns of English thought.

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

You just don't understand it, wise and learned one. It is pro-Christ, NOT anti-Christ.

No, it's the same error that Barth and many other have made; and its effects have reached epidemic proportions as a plague within the Christian Faith.

Sadly, it is you who don't understand.

You can't know the tone of my words in this written venue. I'm not debating and arguing and fighting. Nor am I condescending. I'm grieving to the core of my being over the damage being done to the Christian Faith by this, and several other, key doctrinal perversions because of English misrepresentation.

Language determines belief, and all thought, volition, desire, emotion, and action are determined by belief. Once one hears an inauthentic Word, it shapes their belief just as the authentic Word does.

It's nobody's "turn". The truth is absolute whether anyone knows it or believes it. It won't change even if everyone believes the same sublte non-anarthrous lies you've embraced.

Once the anarthrous is removed from language, the whole spectrum of qualitative characteristics and functional activity of EVERY noun is significantly diminished and/or lost. You can't even know how horrific this is as the primary instrument of the enemy of our souls.

 

[KingdomRose]

From a link provided in another thread, here's one paragraph (emphasis mine):Two questions:
1. Had Christ not lived, died and resurrected, are people born dead in sin?
2. Despite Christ's life, death and resurrection, are people born dead in sin?

If possible, please provide Scriptural basis for your answer.

Whether or not Christ had lived, died and resurrected, we would still be born dead in sin, and yes, despite Christ's life, death and resurrection, people are born dead in sin. Augustine was entirely correct concerning this.

Romans chapter 5 shows this to be true. If we leave off the parts about Christ, it is clear that mankind has been under the influence of sin and death since Adam. So without Christ, we would all be hopeless.

"By one man's trespass many died..." (verse 15)

"The judgment resulted from one trespass in condemnation..." (verse 16)

"Through one trespass the result to men of all sorts was condemnation..." (verse 18)

"Through the disobedience of the one man many were constituted sinners..." (verse 19)


So it is clear that mankind needed their Creator's help in becoming justified. That is where Christ comes in. He provided the propitiatory sacrifice required under the Law, thus fulfilling the Law and God's justice for humans.

 

[KingdomRose]

If they are not born dead why do they need to be born again? 1 Peter 1:23.

Being born again has nothing to do with whether or not a person is born spiritually dead. If they were born perfect and were chosen to rule in heaven with Christ, they would still need to be "born again." Being born again is not a remedy for being born in sin and death. It is a further, additional birth, if you will, one that places a person in line for heavenly life.

Most of us now are in no need of being "born again," because the rulers with Christ have been chosen. We do not need to be prepared for heavenly life. If you'll notice the scripture about being born again, Jesus did not say that a person has to be born again to be saved. He said a person must be born again to enter the Kingdom of God. That means to rule with him in heaven, which is where the Kingdom has its seat. The Kingdom extends its influence over the earth, which is part of that Kingdom arrangement. We have a government by God (God's appointed King, Jesus Christ, and his co-rulers) and we have its subjects---here on Earth.

Only Christ's co-rulers need to be born again.