Are People Born Dead In Sin?

Samie

New member
From a link provided in another thread, here's one paragraph (emphasis mine):
So in the ensuing debate, Augustine made it clear that in creation, God commanded nothing from Adam or Eve that they were incapable of performing. But once transgression entered and mankind became fallen, God’s law was not repealed nor did God adjust his holy requirements downward to accommodate the weakened, fallen condition of his creation. God did punish his creation by visiting upon them the judgment of original sin, so that everyone after Adam and Eve who was born into this world was born already dead in sin. Original sin is not the first sin. It’s the result of the first sin; it refers to our inherent corruption, by which we are born in sin, and in sin did our mothers conceive us. We are not born in a neutral state of innocence, but we are born in a sinful, fallen condition. Virtually every church in the historic World Council of Churches at some point in their history and in their creedal development articulates some doctrine of original sin. So clear is that to the biblical revelation that it would take a repudiation of the biblical view of mankind to deny original sin altogether.
Two questions:
1. Had Christ not lived, died and resurrected, are people born dead in sin?
2. Despite Christ's life, death and resurrection, are people born dead in sin?

If possible, please provide Scriptural basis for your answer.
 

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
From a link provided in another thread, here's one paragraph (emphasis mine):Two questions:
1. Had Christ not lived, died and resurrected, are people born dead in sin?
2. Despite Christ's life, death and resurrection, are people born dead in sin?

If possible, please provide Scriptural basis for your answer.

If they are not born dead why do they need to be born again? 1 Peter 1:23.
 

Samie

New member
If they are not born dead why do they need to be born again? 1 Peter 1:23.
We died with Christ, being His Body on the cross. Having died, we need to be resurrected. And God resurrected us - His Body, TOGETHER with Christ - the Head, when He rose from the grave. And that act of God for us, caused us to be born again.
ESV 1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead

Therefore, having been made part of His Body on the cross, and resurrected TOGETHER with Him, we are all In Christ Who is our Life (Col 3:4), and therefore born spiritually alive instead of born spiritually dead in sin.
 

dodge

New member
We died with Christ, being His Body on the cross. Having died, we need to be resurrected. And God resurrected us - His Body, TOGETHER with Christ - the Head, when He rose from the grave. And that act of God for us, caused us to be born again.
ESV 1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead

Therefore, having been made part of His Body on the cross, and resurrected TOGETHER with Him, we are all In Christ Who is our Life (Col 3:4), and therefore born spiritually alive instead of born spiritually dead in sin.


If what you believe is true no one in Christ would die. Death is a result of sin.
 

Bradley D

Well-known member
It is human nature to sin.

"...for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth..." (Gen. 8:21)
 

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
We died with Christ, being His Body on the cross. Having died, we need to be resurrected. And God resurrected us - His Body, TOGETHER with Christ - the Head, when He rose from the grave. And that act of God for us, caused us to be born again.
ESV 1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead

Therefore, having been made part of His Body on the cross, and resurrected TOGETHER with Him, we are all In Christ Who is our Life (Col 3:4), and therefore born spiritually alive instead of born spiritually dead in sin.

Only believers are born again and made spiritually alive. This happens when they hear and believe the Gospel, Galatians 3:2.
 

themuzicman

Well-known member
Romans 7:9 I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died. 10 The very commandment that promised life proved to be death to me.


If Paul was once alive, he obviously wasn't born dead in sin.

We can also look at Romans 5:12 and see that we die because of our own sin, which requires the knowledge of good and evil.
 

Zeke

Well-known member
The legal aspect of the words relates to being born/sold into slavery by being given a surname that has been going on since the futile Kings and Lords stated buying and selling souls on their slave markets, You're born alive and innocent and then sold into slavery through the fraud and generational deceit into the Babylonian way until you wake up and forsake that surname that allows you to buy and sell, things theology forgot to mention on purpose, seeing they are also part of the programing. Dog Latin English to keep you in Cains mentality.
 

PneumaPsucheSoma

TOL Subscriber
Once one denies Adam's original sin and our inherited guilt therefrom, all manner of doctrinal error follows.

http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...med-Theology&p=4559007&viewfull=1#post4559007

AMR

Though I ultimately agree, this is possibly the most widely misunderstood and misrepresented and misheld doctrine because so few understand sin as a noun, and articular/anarthrous singular/plural Greek nouns in general because of English definite/indefinite article noun forms.

I have historically opposed the Original Sin doctrine, but only because I hate the misconceptualization of it in relation to other vital and authentic orthodox doctrines. A deep exegetical delineation of Hamartiology exposes the errors and heresy of Pelagianism (which includes Arminianism) and Open Theism (which may as well be full-on Process Theology).
 

Samie

New member
Only believers are born again and made spiritually alive. This happens when they hear and believe the Gospel, Galatians 3:2.
It cannot be simply denied that Scriptures say people have been born again through the resurrection of Jesus.
NKJ 1 Peter 1:3 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead

The fact that God has already begotten us again through the resurrection of Jesus simply coincides with our being made alive TOGETHER with Christ.
NAS Colossians 2:13 And when you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions

Scripture's key phrase is "made alive together with" which is but a single Greek word: συζωοποιέω. If people are born again at the instant of believing or AFTER they believe, then that is "made alive one at a time", NOT made alive TOGETHER with Christ.

Let's see Gal 3:2 whether it says people are born again when they believe:
NKJ Galatians 3:2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

The keywords in the verse are "receive" and "hear", acts doable only by those already made alive. And as pointed out above, we were made alive TOGETHER with Christ when He resurrected, being His Body when He died, as discussed in post #3 and in this thread.

The merits of our being made alive SOLELY belongs to God. It was God's work FOR man. Not an iota of human participation.
 

bling

Member
Original sin refuted
This is no small subject and there appear to be verses on both sides of the issue.
The Bible does not say after Adam and Eve sinned: “Man’s nature changed”, or “The sin of Adam and Eve was pasted on”. It does say the knowledge of good and evil came into the world and does not use the word “fall” to describe this.
Is knowledge bad in and of itself?
To refute the idea: “Children and anyone else that has not reached mature adulthood have not sinned yet and do not need saving, since they have done nothing wrong. They are in a safe condition.” Use:
Rom 3:23 says "for ALL have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God". We are born sinners, thanks to Adam.
Yet: The key to this verse is accountability.
“All have sinned”, so is Paul addressing an unborn child with that statement? Paul did not say we “all” inherited Adam and Eve’s sin, but all have (actually) sinned. It also does not say we inherited even a “sinful nature”, but talks about knowledge, so is knowledge=nature? “All” does not have to include everyone including unborn children, but could be referring to all of us (whom Paul is addressing at that time those that can understand his letter).
A. The mechanism for the transmission of inherited sin is false:
Spiritual consequences of sin cannot be transmitted from father to son but only falls on the one who committed the act: Ezek 18:1-4; 18-20; Jer 32:29-30
1. Exodus 32:31*33 In this passage, Moses wanted to receive the punishment for someone else's sin. In verse 33, the one who sinned is removed from the book, not the one whose parents have sinned.
We will be judged only by our own actions: Mt 12:36-37; Rom 2:6; 2 Cor 5:10; 1 Pe 1:17
Isa 59:1-2, "Your sins have separated you from your God" not Adams
Sin is committed by individually breaking God's law: 1 Jn 3:4 (Infants have done nothing)
Where is one Bible verse that says we will be condemned for sin other than our own?
B. Unsaved and unregenerate men are capable of doing good and have freewill:
Calvinists teach that if a sinner helps an accident victim, he still sins because he does it for the wrong motive.
Gentiles do by nature the good things of the law: Rom 2:14-16
Cornelius was devout, feared God, righteous, Acts 10:1-4, 22 yet unsaved: 11:14
Man has a freewill and can choose to do good or evil: Josh 24:15 "Choose this day..."
C. God requires man to act and do something to be saved...infants can't act or do
"Unless you repent you will perish": Lk 13:3
"Save yourselves": Acts 2:40 KJV
"Repent and be baptized every one of you for forgiveness of sins": Acts 2:38
Why are we told to "work out our own salvation": Phil 2:12
The spoken and written gospel message is God's power for salvation: Rom 1:16; 1 cor 1:18
D. The words used to describe salvation refute inherited sin:
These words imply that we, individually, were once in God's grace at conception and birth
Justification - Romans 5:18
A court term; a legal word
Addresses the subject of our guilt before God

Reconciliation - Romans 5:6-11; Col 1:14,20,21
A word dealing with social intercourse; human relations; to make friendly again, payment of a price to recover from the power of another, a restoration to favor.
Addresses the subject of our being estranged from God

Redemption - Colossians 1:13-14
to buy back; A slavery term; human commerce; purchasing one's freedom; a ransom
Addresses the subject of our slavery to sin

"Regenerate"
to generate again, renewed, restored



E. The Bible describes infants are pure and holy:
Why would Jesus use infants as a model for all believers to imitate in character if they were "utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil"? Mt 18:1-3; 19:13-14
Paul also used infants as a model of purity for Christians to follow: 1 Cor 14:20
Paul states that he was once spiritually alive but then he sinned & died/was killed: Rom 7:9-11
God said that the king of Tyrus was "blameless in your ways from the day you were created, until unrighteousness was found in you." Ezek 28:15
"God made men upright but they sought devices" Eccl 7:29 (plural can't refer only to Adam)
Newborns do not know the difference between good and evil
God allowed the children to enter Canaan but not the parents: "your little ones who...have no knowledge of good and evil shall enter". Deut 1:34-39
Jesus "Before He knows enough to refuse evil and choose good" Isa 7:15-16
Jer 19:2-6 human sacrifices of children to Baal is called the "blood of the innocent"
If newborns do not know "good or evil" yet the Bible says , "Your sins have separated you from your God" (Isa 59:1-2) then newborns must be born united with God.
Apostle Paul: Rom 7:9-11
"Once alive"
"sin killed me"

King of Tyre: Ezek 28:15
"Blameless from creation"
"until sin found in him"

All men: Eccl 7:29
God made men upright
They sought out devices

Like Adam, each man is born in the "Garden" and is cast out when he sins

F. The second Spiritual death implies a first spiritual death & initial spiritual life:
Second death is hell: It is a spiritual separation from God: Rev 20:6,14
First death is when we first sin and are separated from God till judgement
For us to die a first death we must have been spiritually alive at birth.

Those that argue for a baby being in sin will miss-use this:

Ps 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.
A Perspective on Psalm 51:5

But I would use this explanation:
by William P. Murray, Jr.

Are men born sinners? A commonly abused 'proof' text is Psalm 51:5. Although I cannot claim the following as a result of my own scholarship or research, the information is a culmination from many sources over the years, and, I feel, the best explanation of this particular text that I have come across.

Psalm 51:5 - "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me." KJV

This is a Hebrew poetic parallelism, with the second line of the verse saying the same thing as the first line in a slightly different way. The first verb, of which David is the subject, is in the Pulal tense (as is "made" in # Job 15:7 ), which is an idiom used to refer to creation or origins, and is the 'passive' form of Polel ("formed": # Ps 90:2 Pro 26:10 ). TWOT, #623, 1:270.

The subject of this verse is NOT the state or constitution of David's nature as a sinner at, or before, his birth. The subject is, as the verse clearly states, the 'circumstances' of his conception- the sexual union which produced him was an act of sin, and addresses the unrighteousness of his mother's act, not anything (such as a sin nature) inherent within himself. (The NIV's version of this verse is an INTERPRETATION, not a translation: "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.")

David had two half-sisters (Zeruiah, Abigail).....:

1CHR 2:13-16 13 “And Jesse begat his firstborn Eliab, and Abinadab the second, and Shimma the third, 14 Nethaneel the fourth, Raddai the fifth, 15 Ozem the sixth, David the seventh: 16 Whose sisters were Zeruiah, and Abigail. And the sons of Zeruiah; Abishai, and Joab, and Asahel, three. 17 And Abigail bare Amasa: and the father of Amasa was Jether the Ishmeelite.”

....and the father of David's half-sisters was not Jesse, but Nahash:

2Sam 17:25 “And Absalom made Amasa captain of the host instead of Joab: which Amasa was a man's son, whose name was Ithra an Israelite, that went in to Abigail the daughter of Nahash, sister to Zeruiah Joab's mother.”

Nahash, the father of Zeruiah and Abigal, David's half-sisters, was an Ammonite king:

1Sam 11:1 “Then Nahash the Ammonite came up, and encamped against Jabeshgilead: and all the men of Jabesh said unto Nahash, Make a covenant with us, and we will serve thee.”

1Sam 12:12 “And when ye saw that Nahash the king of the children of Ammon came against you, ye said unto me, Nay; but a king shall reign over us: when the LORD your God was your king.”

David's father was Jesse, not Nahash. Zeruiah and Abigal were David's half-sisters through his mother's previous marriage to Nahash. This would also help explain why Nahash showed kindness to David, perhaps out of respect for David's mother, Nahash’s former wife and the mother of two of Nahash's children.

2Sam 10:2 “Then said David, I will shew kindness unto Hanun the son of Nahash, as his father shewed kindness unto me. And David sent to comfort him by the hand of his servants for his father. And David's servants came into the land of the children of Ammon.”

David's mother was most likely the second wife of Jesse, the first wife being the mother of David's half-brothers. Jesse’s first wife's standing before the 'righteousness of the law', (her not having been married to, or the concubine of, a heathen king, as was David’s mother), would have been superior to that of David's mother, and explains why David's half-brothers, Jesse's other sons, would have felt they were superior to David, and why he would be accused of being prideful, for thinking he was as good as them....

1Sam 17:28-30 28 “And Eliab his eldest brother heard when he spake unto the men; and Eliab's anger was kindled against David, and he said, Why camest thou down hither? and with whom hast thou left those few sheep in the wilderness? I know thy pride, and the naughtiness of thine heart; for thou art come down that thou mightest see the battle. 29 And David said, What have I now done? Is there not a cause? 30 And he turned from him toward another, and spake after the same manner: and the people answered him again after the former manner.”

...and why David was not considered, by his father Jesse, as 'true' a son as his half-brothers. Samuel had called Jesse and his sons, and thus expected 'all' his sons, to the sacrifice (1Sam 16:5,11). Jesse, having been told to bring 'his sons' by a prophet of the Lord everyone feared (1Sam 16:4), was confident he had obeyed the prophet, even knowing he did not bring David....

1Sam 16:11 “And Samuel said unto Jesse, Are here all thy children? And he said, There remaineth yet the youngest, and, behold, he keepeth the sheep. And Samuel said unto Jesse, Send and fetch him: for we will not sit down till he come hither.”

....which would be consistent with God's sometimes choosing that which men esteemed as worthless (the 'least') to be the greatest: (Gideon- Jud 6:15; King Saul- 1Sam 9:21; Jesus- Mt 2:6, Lk 9:48)

David's mother was apparently a Jewish woman, because 'no Ammonite shall enter the congregation of the Lord to the 10th generation’ (Deu 23:3), and yet in PS 86:16 and PS 116:16, David refers to himself as "the son of thy handmaid", which would seem to testify to his mother's relationship with the Lord. David's mother was, in the eyes of Jewish law, considered 'defiled' by her previous relationship to an Ammonite.

Nu 25:1,2; De 7:3,4; 1ki 11:2-4, Ezr 9:2; Ne 13:23,25; 2Co 6:14-17


This page may be copied and distributed freely as long as it is not altered.
 

Samie

New member
Once one denies Adam's original sin and our inherited guilt therefrom, all manner of doctrinal error follows.

http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...med-Theology&p=4559007&viewfull=1#post4559007

AMR
I beg to disagree. It more looks like, when one believes that people are born spiritually dead in sin, all manner of doctrinal error follows as displayed by both Calvinists and Arminians in their endless, centuries-old debate, the pot calling the kettle black.

God did not simply fold His hands and did nothing when Adam fell into sin. Right then and there on that very same day, He implemented the plan of redemption He devised BEFORE the foundation of the world, as discussed here. That plan was revealed in the life, death and resurrection of our Lord. No wonder, Christ is called the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world (Rev 13:8).

In the words of the wisest man:
NAS Ecclesiastes 7:29 "Behold, I have found only this, that God made men upright, but they have sought out many devices."

Being born spiritually alive, people are In Christ, parts of His Body. But instead of overcoming evil with good, people choose to be overcome of evil. That's why God is calling all men everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30), because they are capable of repenting being in Christ Who is their Strength (Phil 4:13) to overcome evil with good (Rom 12:21). Overcomers will not be blotted out from the book of life (Rev 3:5) and will be seated with Christ in His throne, Who Himself is an overcomer.
KJV Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

 

Samie

New member
If what you believe is true no one in Christ would die. Death is a result of sin.
No one who remains in Christ will see death. All who gets blotted out from the book of life will experience two deaths: one, death from the 7 last plagues, and, two, the lake of fire. The death with which people now die, is but sleep in the eyes of God.
 

Ask Mr. Religion

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I beg to disagree.
Of course you do, as it validates my premise that those that disagree with over a thousand years of the church's denunciation of deniers of original sin, are found to hold all manner of doctrinal oddities and error. You are a textbook example of how far one will stray outside the bounds of orthodoxy once one denies original sin.

AMR
 
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PneumaPsucheSoma

TOL Subscriber
Original sin refuted

Spoiler
This is no small subject and there appear to be verses on both sides of the issue.
The Bible does not say after Adam and Eve sinned: “Man’s nature changed”, or “The sin of Adam and Eve was pasted on”. It does say the knowledge of good and evil came into the world and does not use the word “fall” to describe this.
Is knowledge bad in and of itself?
To refute the idea: “Children and anyone else that has not reached mature adulthood have not sinned yet and do not need saving, since they have done nothing wrong. They are in a safe condition.” Use:
Rom 3:23 says "for ALL have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God". We are born sinners, thanks to Adam.
Yet: The key to this verse is accountability.
“All have sinned”, so is Paul addressing an unborn child with that statement? Paul did not say we “all” inherited Adam and Eve’s sin, but all have (actually) sinned. It also does not say we inherited even a “sinful nature”, but talks about knowledge, so is knowledge=nature? “All” does not have to include everyone including unborn children, but could be referring to all of us (whom Paul is addressing at that time those that can understand his letter).
A. The mechanism for the transmission of inherited sin is false:
Spiritual consequences of sin cannot be transmitted from father to son but only falls on the one who committed the act: Ezek 18:1-4; 18-20; Jer 32:29-30
1. Exodus 32:31*33 In this passage, Moses wanted to receive the punishment for someone else's sin. In verse 33, the one who sinned is removed from the book, not the one whose parents have sinned.
We will be judged only by our own actions: Mt 12:36-37; Rom 2:6; 2 Cor 5:10; 1 Pe 1:17
Isa 59:1-2, "Your sins have separated you from your God" not Adams
Sin is committed by individually breaking God's law: 1 Jn 3:4 (Infants have done nothing)
Where is one Bible verse that says we will be condemned for sin other than our own?
B. Unsaved and unregenerate men are capable of doing good and have freewill:
Calvinists teach that if a sinner helps an accident victim, he still sins because he does it for the wrong motive.
Gentiles do by nature the good things of the law: Rom 2:14-16
Cornelius was devout, feared God, righteous, Acts 10:1-4, 22 yet unsaved: 11:14
Man has a freewill and can choose to do good or evil: Josh 24:15 "Choose this day..."
C. God requires man to act and do something to be saved...infants can't act or do
"Unless you repent you will perish": Lk 13:3
"Save yourselves": Acts 2:40 KJV
"Repent and be baptized every one of you for forgiveness of sins": Acts 2:38
Why are we told to "work out our own salvation": Phil 2:12
The spoken and written gospel message is God's power for salvation: Rom 1:16; 1 cor 1:18
D. The words used to describe salvation refute inherited sin:
These words imply that we, individually, were once in God's grace at conception and birth
Justification - Romans 5:18
A court term; a legal word
Addresses the subject of our guilt before God

Reconciliation - Romans 5:6-11; Col 1:14,20,21
A word dealing with social intercourse; human relations; to make friendly again, payment of a price to recover from the power of another, a restoration to favor.
Addresses the subject of our being estranged from God

Redemption - Colossians 1:13-14
to buy back; A slavery term; human commerce; purchasing one's freedom; a ransom
Addresses the subject of our slavery to sin

"Regenerate"
to generate again, renewed, restored



E. The Bible describes infants are pure and holy:
Why would Jesus use infants as a model for all believers to imitate in character if they were "utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil"? Mt 18:1-3; 19:13-14
Paul also used infants as a model of purity for Christians to follow: 1 Cor 14:20
Paul states that he was once spiritually alive but then he sinned & died/was killed: Rom 7:9-11
God said that the king of Tyrus was "blameless in your ways from the day you were created, until unrighteousness was found in you." Ezek 28:15
"God made men upright but they sought devices" Eccl 7:29 (plural can't refer only to Adam)
Newborns do not know the difference between good and evil
God allowed the children to enter Canaan but not the parents: "your little ones who...have no knowledge of good and evil shall enter". Deut 1:34-39
Jesus "Before He knows enough to refuse evil and choose good" Isa 7:15-16
Jer 19:2-6 human sacrifices of children to Baal is called the "blood of the innocent"
If newborns do not know "good or evil" yet the Bible says , "Your sins have separated you from your God" (Isa 59:1-2) then newborns must be born united with God.
Apostle Paul: Rom 7:9-11
"Once alive"
"sin killed me"

King of Tyre: Ezek 28:15
"Blameless from creation"
"until sin found in him"

All men: Eccl 7:29
God made men upright
They sought out devices

Like Adam, each man is born in the "Garden" and is cast out when he sins

F. The second Spiritual death implies a first spiritual death & initial spiritual life:
Second death is hell: It is a spiritual separation from God: Rev 20:6,14
First death is when we first sin and are separated from God till judgement
For us to die a first death we must have been spiritually alive at birth.

Those that argue for a baby being in sin will miss-use this:

Ps 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.
A Perspective on Psalm 51:5

But I would use this explanation:
by William P. Murray, Jr.

Are men born sinners? A commonly abused 'proof' text is Psalm 51:5. Although I cannot claim the following as a result of my own scholarship or research, the information is a culmination from many sources over the years, and, I feel, the best explanation of this particular text that I have come across.

Psalm 51:5 - "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me." KJV

This is a Hebrew poetic parallelism, with the second line of the verse saying the same thing as the first line in a slightly different way. The first verb, of which David is the subject, is in the Pulal tense (as is "made" in # Job 15:7 ), which is an idiom used to refer to creation or origins, and is the 'passive' form of Polel ("formed": # Ps 90:2 Pro 26:10 ). TWOT, #623, 1:270.

The subject of this verse is NOT the state or constitution of David's nature as a sinner at, or before, his birth. The subject is, as the verse clearly states, the 'circumstances' of his conception- the sexual union which produced him was an act of sin, and addresses the unrighteousness of his mother's act, not anything (such as a sin nature) inherent within himself. (The NIV's version of this verse is an INTERPRETATION, not a translation: "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.")

David had two half-sisters (Zeruiah, Abigail).....:

1CHR 2:13-16 13 “And Jesse begat his firstborn Eliab, and Abinadab the second, and Shimma the third, 14 Nethaneel the fourth, Raddai the fifth, 15 Ozem the sixth, David the seventh: 16 Whose sisters were Zeruiah, and Abigail. And the sons of Zeruiah; Abishai, and Joab, and Asahel, three. 17 And Abigail bare Amasa: and the father of Amasa was Jether the Ishmeelite.”

....and the father of David's half-sisters was not Jesse, but Nahash:

2Sam 17:25 “And Absalom made Amasa captain of the host instead of Joab: which Amasa was a man's son, whose name was Ithra an Israelite, that went in to Abigail the daughter of Nahash, sister to Zeruiah Joab's mother.”

Nahash, the father of Zeruiah and Abigal, David's half-sisters, was an Ammonite king:

1Sam 11:1 “Then Nahash the Ammonite came up, and encamped against Jabeshgilead: and all the men of Jabesh said unto Nahash, Make a covenant with us, and we will serve thee.”

1Sam 12:12 “And when ye saw that Nahash the king of the children of Ammon came against you, ye said unto me, Nay; but a king shall reign over us: when the LORD your God was your king.”

David's father was Jesse, not Nahash. Zeruiah and Abigal were David's half-sisters through his mother's previous marriage to Nahash. This would also help explain why Nahash showed kindness to David, perhaps out of respect for David's mother, Nahash’s former wife and the mother of two of Nahash's children.

2Sam 10:2 “Then said David, I will shew kindness unto Hanun the son of Nahash, as his father shewed kindness unto me. And David sent to comfort him by the hand of his servants for his father. And David's servants came into the land of the children of Ammon.”

David's mother was most likely the second wife of Jesse, the first wife being the mother of David's half-brothers. Jesse’s first wife's standing before the 'righteousness of the law', (her not having been married to, or the concubine of, a heathen king, as was David’s mother), would have been superior to that of David's mother, and explains why David's half-brothers, Jesse's other sons, would have felt they were superior to David, and why he would be accused of being prideful, for thinking he was as good as them....

1Sam 17:28-30 28 “And Eliab his eldest brother heard when he spake unto the men; and Eliab's anger was kindled against David, and he said, Why camest thou down hither? and with whom hast thou left those few sheep in the wilderness? I know thy pride, and the naughtiness of thine heart; for thou art come down that thou mightest see the battle. 29 And David said, What have I now done? Is there not a cause? 30 And he turned from him toward another, and spake after the same manner: and the people answered him again after the former manner.”

...and why David was not considered, by his father Jesse, as 'true' a son as his half-brothers. Samuel had called Jesse and his sons, and thus expected 'all' his sons, to the sacrifice (1Sam 16:5,11). Jesse, having been told to bring 'his sons' by a prophet of the Lord everyone feared (1Sam 16:4), was confident he had obeyed the prophet, even knowing he did not bring David....

1Sam 16:11 “And Samuel said unto Jesse, Are here all thy children? And he said, There remaineth yet the youngest, and, behold, he keepeth the sheep. And Samuel said unto Jesse, Send and fetch him: for we will not sit down till he come hither.”

....which would be consistent with God's sometimes choosing that which men esteemed as worthless (the 'least') to be the greatest: (Gideon- Jud 6:15; King Saul- 1Sam 9:21; Jesus- Mt 2:6, Lk 9:48)

David's mother was apparently a Jewish woman, because 'no Ammonite shall enter the congregation of the Lord to the 10th generation’ (Deu 23:3), and yet in PS 86:16 and PS 116:16, David refers to himself as "the son of thy handmaid", which would seem to testify to his mother's relationship with the Lord. David's mother was, in the eyes of Jewish law, considered 'defiled' by her previous relationship to an Ammonite.

Nu 25:1,2; De 7:3,4; 1ki 11:2-4, Ezr 9:2; Ne 13:23,25; 2Co 6:14-17


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This is possibly the most abyssmal non-exegetical non-lexical example of fallacious proof-texting obfuscation I've ever encountered.

It's almost impressive how horrible this is. Almost...
 

PneumaPsucheSoma

TOL Subscriber
I beg to disagree. It more looks like, when one believes that people are born spiritually dead in sin, all manner of doctrinal error follows as displayed by both Calvinists and Arminians in their endless, centuries-old debate, the pot calling the kettle black.

God did not simply fold His hands and did nothing when Adam fell into sin. Right then and there on that very same day, He implemented the plan of redemption He devised BEFORE the foundation of the world, as discussed here. That plan was revealed in the life, death and resurrection of our Lord. No wonder, Christ is called the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world (Rev 13:8).

In the words of the wisest man:
NAS Ecclesiastes 7:29 "Behold, I have found only this, that God made men upright, but they have sought out many devices."

Being born spiritually alive, people are In Christ, parts of His Body. But instead of overcoming evil with good, people choose to be overcome of evil. That's why God is calling all men everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30), because they are capable of repenting being in Christ Who is their Strength (Phil 4:13) to overcome evil with good (Rom 12:21). Overcomers will not be blotted out from the book of life (Rev 3:5) and will be seated with Christ in His throne, Who Himself is an overcomer.
KJV Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.


It really is as simple as you not comprehending articular/anarthrous Greek nouns and the specifics of Hamartiology. But you can't hear anything but your fallacies from your horrific presuppositions.
 
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jamie

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LIFETIME MEMBER
Infants are not born in sin but because of the nature God created in humans sin is inevitable.
 
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