ARCHIVE: Z Man asks... "what about grace?"

[Servo]

Also, as stated before:

All CRIMES are SINS, but not all SINS are CRIMES.

 

[Clete]

One thing that should be noted:

When talking about GRACE, we are talking about matters of salvation and eternity (the life after this life.)

When talking about crimes and punishment we are NOT talking about salvation AND it only pertains to this life, not the afterlife.

This is, in a nut shell, the correct answer to Z Man's question in the opening post.

 

[Morpheus]

Also, as stated before:

All CRIMES are SINS, but not all SINS are CRIMES.

So then does this mean you advocate the old premise, "kill 'em all and let God sort them out"?

Our job here is not to fix society. Our job is to act as God's tools to draw people away from a twisted world to himself. Alienating people is counterproductive to our goal. Calling for their death tends to alienate them. Look at the example of Jesus. He was criticized by the "morally upright" for associating with sinners. They all knew what he stood for. He told them about their sins and their ultimate consequences. But the only people he attacked were the legalistic church leaders who distorted the truth to fit their ideologies. He attracted the sinners to himself. So who's example are you choosing to follow, and how does that choice fulfill God's mission for you?

 

[Clete]

My intent is not to decieve and yes I did post in defense of Z Man's position.

I understand you aren't trying to deceive anyone I'm just wishing you would be a little less vague with your intent when you post a naked passage of Scripture.

So why did God send Jesus?

Well it wasn't to abolish the criminal justice system, that's for sure!
What Jesus did had to do with fixing the problem that exists between God and mankind, not with getting criminals off the hook with the government. Criminals can be saved just like everyone else. All they need do is call upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and believe that God raised Him from the dead. But that has nothing to do with whether or not the just punishment for their crimes should carried out by the government.

Why did Jesus let the prostitute go free?

Because those who brought the adulteress to Jesus were not interested in justice but in getting Him in trouble with the Roman government which forbid the execution of criminals without their authorization. Had they been permitted to kill her they would have told the Romans that He authorized her execution and thus brought Him into a premature conflict with them. So He out smarted them by convicting them of their own sin and causing them to leave. When they were gone then there was no longer two or three witnesses present and so no conviction for the crime could be rendered lawfully and thus no execution could be lawfully carried out. So Jesus' mercy was also entirely in keeping with the law.

The passage has nothing whatsoever to do with Jesus rescinding the death penalty for adultery or any other crime for that matter.

Yes! Praise God.

Okay. You also understand that grace has to do with where you spend eternity and not the circumstances of your physical death then, right?

In other words, how would the government executing capital criminals contradict the doctrines of grace?

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Servo]

So then does this mean you advocate the old premise, "kill 'em all and let God sort them out"?

Not all crimes should be punished by death.

All crimes should be followed by a punishment, either restitution, corporal or capital punishment.

All sins can be forgiven if one repents to our Lord and Savior.

Our job here is not to fix society. Our job is to act as God's tools to draw people away from a twisted world to himself. Alienating people is counterproductive to our goal. Calling for their death tends to alienate them. Look at the example of Jesus. He was criticized by the "morally upright" for associating with sinners. They all knew what he stood for. He told them about their sins and their ultimate consequences. But the only people he attacked were the legalistic church leaders who distorted the truth to fit their ideologies. He attracted the sinners to himself. So who's example are you choosing to follow, and how does that choice fulfill God's mission for you?

Did God, in the Bible, appoint the government to punish criminals for their crimes? Yes or no?

 

[Poly]

One thing that should be noted:

When talking about GRACE, we are talking about matters of salvation and eternity (the life after this life.)

When talking about crimes and punishment we are NOT talking about salvation AND it only pertains to this life, not the afterlife.

Great point. It cheapens God's grace to say it not only applies to those who believe and accept Christ but to even those who want nothing to with God, spit in HIs face and proudly boast in their sin.

Grace doesn't cover this for people while on Earth yet uncovers them when they stand in judgment before God. Not only does it make God's grace cheap, it doesn't make sense.

 

[Morpheus]

Did God, in the Bible, appoint the government to punish criminals for their crimes? Yes or no?

Yup. And he appointed us to do something else. My question is are you doing your assignment, or are your actions and words counterproductive to that assignment?

 

[Clete]

Yup. And he appointed us to do something else. My question is are you doing your assignment, or are your actions and words counterproductive to that assignment?

I don't recall hearing about Shimei ever punishing anyone for committing a crime, nor have I seen him advocate vigilantism. What are you suggesting; that we shouldn't advocate that the government should fulfill its God given role? You aren't making any sense.

 

[Clete]

Then you are willing to accept the punishment for all of the sins you have commited as prescribed by Mosaic law?

Large portions of the Mosaic law would not be applicable and it would be unjust to punish crimes retroactively but other than those two caviots, yes, of course! Did you expect for me (or Knight) to say otherwise? The law given by God in the Bible is THE law. There is no other law that is just. Any law that man makes that is contrary to God's law is unjust, by definition.

Resting in Him,
Clete

P.S. Here's the part where you get to make an attempt to make God's law sound rediculous and unjust to save you butt in the debate. Good luck with that.

 

[Z Man]

Is it Biblical for the government punish criminals today?

As On Fire stated, yeah. Jesus says render unto Ceasers what is his and to God, His.

If so, which crimes should be punished and why?

That's what I'm asking you! Why say homosexuality is a crime, but disobeying your parents or eating shellfish or working on the Sabbath is no longer valid? What authority do you have to pick which crimes should be punished and why?

Do you believe that "man's law" as you call it, should be in total agreement with God's law?

In a perfect world, yes. But in our world, no. It can't be. Again, I don't think that what we render to God is also what we must render to Ceaser. We must give to each accordingly, and both are different. We must pay taxes to the government, obey traffic rules (don't run stop lights, obey speed limit, etc.), and even resist the urge to harass others for their opinions (free speech). But none of those laws make us Christians. God demands our love and our lives. We must take the time to spread the gospel and to help those in need. If we speed on the way to church, we haven't broken 'God's law'. If we fail to stop and help someone who may be stranded on the side of the road, then I think we have.

But then people could argue what constitutes God's laws, as Paul discusses in 2 Cor. 8. Some Christians thought it was wrong to eat certain foods, while others didn't. If a Christian believes that eating pork is ok, then he's not breaking God's law. If another Christian does think it's wrong, and he does it anyways, then he has broken God's law.

Also, are you a legal positivist? That is, do you believe that something is only a crime if it is against the law (i.e. man's law)? Or asked another way, does God's law define what is and is not a genuine crime?

These are two different subjects. I don't believe we can blur the line between God's law and man's law. There are some things that both man's law and God's law agree on, such as murder and theft, but there are some things that are totally different, such as the necessity to obey traffic rules according to man's laws, and the necessity to serve those in need according to God's laws. I don't think it becomes a sin if we speed, and in the same sense, I don't think it should be a crime if Christians don't help out the poor.

Therefore, back to the main argument, I do not think it should be a crime to be homosexual. It may be wrong for people to do it, just like it's wrong for Christians to not become servants and spread the gospel, but it by no means should be a government enforced crime.

While I agree that they would have failed in any case, I believe it to be a gross overstatement to say that they "did their best to follow" the Law. The Jews, on the whole, hated God and took seemingly every opportunity to pervert justice.

And that WAS their best effort! Oh the depravity of men...

I don't believe that a man should be executed for disobeying his parents for basically the same reason I don't believe that people should be executed for working on the Sabbath.

Why not? How can you say with authority that it's ok to enforce the punishment of the act of homosexuality, but not the disobeying of parents or working on the Sabbath? What gives you the right to pick and choose? What do you base your decisions on? If Scripture, it follows logically and consistently that you must believe disobediant children need to be killed, just like homosexuals.

 

[Clete]

As On Fire stated, yeah. Jesus says render unto Ceasers what is his and to God, His.

That's what I'm asking you! Why say homosexuality is a crime, but disobeying your parents or eating shellfish or working on the Sabbath is no longer valid? What authority do you have to pick which crimes should be punished and why?

In a perfect world, yes. But in our world, no. It can't be. Again, I don't think that what we render to God is also what we must render to Ceaser. We must give to each accordingly, and both are different. We must pay taxes to the government, obey traffic rules (don't run stop lights, obey speed limit, etc.), and even resist the urge to harass others for their opinions (free speech). But none of those laws make us Christians. God demands our love and our lives. We must take the time to spread the gospel and to help those in need. If we speed on the way to church, we haven't broken 'God's law'. If we fail to stop and help someone who may be stranded on the side of the road, then I think we have.

But then people could argue what constitutes God's laws, as Paul discusses in 2 Cor. 8. Some Christians thought it was wrong to eat certain foods, while others didn't. If a Christian believes that eating pork is ok, then he's not breaking God's law. If another Christian does think it's wrong, and he does it anyways, then he has broken God's law.

These are two different subjects. I don't believe we can blur the line between God's law and man's law. There are some things that both man's law and God's law agree on, such as murder and theft, but there are some things that are totally different, such as the necessity to obey traffic rules according to man's laws, and the necessity to serve those in need according to God's laws. I don't think it becomes a sin if we speed, and in the same sense, I don't think it should be a crime if Christians don't help out the poor.

Therefore, back to the main argument, I do not think it should be a crime to be homosexual. It may be wrong for people to do it, just like it's wrong for Christians to not become servants and spread the gospel, but it by no means should be a government enforced crime.

And that WAS their best effort! Oh the depravity of men...

Why not? How can you say with authority that it's ok to enforce the punishment of the act of homosexuality, but not the disobeying of parents or working on the Sabbath? What gives you the right to pick and choose? What do you base your decisions on? If Scripture, it follows logically and consistently that you must believe disobediant children need to be killed, just like homosexuals.

Z Man,

You are all over the place on this. I have been conducting this conversation based on the argument you presented in the opening post which clearly made the point that we shouldn't punish homos for their crime because of grace. The logical refutation of that is to ask you whether or not anything should be a punishable crime. I ask that question and now you want to change the whole subject! We can do that if you want but not before you conceed the point that the gospel of grace does not negate the governments authority to punish criminals.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[GuySmiley]

I have seen a lot of contradiction within certain arguments here. Many have stated that government punishes us for crimes but not for sin. Then when the reply addresses that point then the same people who say that government punishes us for crime but not for sin turn their argument around and state that the sin of homosexuality should be a crime thereby expressing their desire for the government to punish some people for their sin. Those same people would then argue that they should not be punished for their own sins, even by God, because of grace. How much more can the word of God be twisted?

You have to try hard to miss it. Crimes are sins, but not all sins are crimes, as God's law demands. If I murder somone, I should be executed by the government, because murder is a crime. That does not effect my salvation though, because of grace. People should be punished by the government for crimes, but people should not be punished by the government for sins.

If you say that people on this thread are arguing that the government should punish people for their sins, you'll have to show me an example of someone saying that about something that is clearly not a crime. Homosexuality is the subject of debate, so don't use that one, unless like Zman you want to argue that it shouldn't be a crime. But stop saying that we think the government should punish people for their sins.

 

[GuySmiley]

Clete asked

Do you believe that "man's law" as you call it, should be in total agreement with God's law?

Z Man answered

In a perfect world, yes. But in our world, no. It can't be.

Please reread Clete's question and realize the key word was 'should'.

If you already realized this, then is your answer really: In a perfect world, yes (it should be). But in our world, no (it shouldn't follow God's law).

 

[Delmar]

Clete asked

Z Man answered

Please reread Clete's question and realize the key word was 'should'.

If you already realized this, then is your answer really: In a perfect world, yes (it should be). But in our world, no (it shouldn't follow God's law).

:up:

 

[Z Man]

Z Man,

You are all over the place on this. I have been conducting this conversation based on the argument you presented in the opening post which clearly made the point that we shouldn't punish homos for their crime because of grace. The logical refutation of that is to ask you whether or not anything should be a punishable crime. I ask that question and now you want to change the whole subject! We can do that if you want but not before you conceed the point that the gospel of grace does not negate the governments authority to punish criminals.

Resting in Him,
Clete

I just wanna know why you think homos should be executed.

Is homosexuality a sin? Yes. A crime? No. Government is created to provide security for people. Murder, rape, and theft are crimes because they violate my security. Homosexuality is not a crime because it does not violate my security. If men/women wanna have sex with each other, so be it. They'll answer for thier sins when they meet God. But it's retarded to say it should be a crime and that they all deserve the death penalty, unless you are willing to say that other sins should be crimes too, like disobeying your parents or eating shellfish.

 

[GuySmiley]

Is homosexuality a sin? Yes. A crime? No. Government is created to provide security for people. Murder, rape, and theft are crimes because they violate my security. Homosexuality is not a crime because it does not violate my security.

So in determining what is and isn't a crime, your standard is whether or not it violates your security? You don't think the Bible has any bearing on the subject or what should or shouldn't be a crime?

 

[Clete]

I just wanna know why you think homos should be executed.

Is homosexuality a sin? Yes. A crime? No. Government is created to provide security for people. Murder, rape, and theft are crimes because they violate my security. Homosexuality is not a crime because it does not violate my security. If men/women wanna have sex with each other, so be it. They'll answer for thier sins when they meet God. But it's retarded to say it should be a crime and that they all deserve the death penalty, unless you are willing to say that other sins should be crimes too, like disobeying your parents or eating shellfish.

God sure thought it was a crime worthy of death when He had Moses write this...

Leviticus 20:13 If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them.​

Whether He still thinks its a crime today is another matter but first things first. Do you stand in disagreement with God and say that being a homo has never been a crime, or do you think that something has changed concerning the impact of their behavior on society such that it is no longer a crime?
If it is the latter, then why do you suppose it was ever a crime in the first place and what about the impact of the behavior on society do believe has changed in the past 100 or so years (that's about how long it's not been considered a capital crime in the whole history of mankind)?

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Morpheus]

I don't recall hearing about Shimei ever punishing anyone for committing a crime, nor have I seen him advocate vigilantism. What are you suggesting; that we shouldn't advocate that the government should fulfill its God given role? You aren't making any sense.

Now you are once again talking in circles. I never said that government shouldn't fulfill its role; I just said that by Shimei, and you, advocating for the killing of homosexuals, even though it is not illegal according to the government, you are working counter to your mission which is to reach the lost. I suggest that you first make sure that you are fulfilling God's role for you before you delve into fixing the legal system to fit your conclusions. I believe that when it comes to running the world God is in control and doesn't actually need your help. In other words, as the old bosses used to put it, "I'll (God will) worry about the business, you just do your job."

As far as your attempts at separating law and sin in the equation, Mosaic law is our foundation for determining what is sin. In this country Constitutional law determines legality, while Mosaic law, along with NT scripture, determines what is sinful. God punishes sin, the government punishes human law which has a lower standard.

 

[death2impiety]

The way I see it, I show grace by continuing to interact with the heathens out there. I'd rather just end my frustration, stop dealing with them and let them go to hell. It's by the grace of God that they have a shot at living with Him even in their current hatred, they have time to turn around. I follow this grace by refusing to fall into apathy.

Homo's should be executed because it will act as a deterrent and help to end the suffering that they create and spread amongst themselves and the rest of the population.

 

[death2impiety]

Now you are once again talking in circles. I never said that government shouldn't fulfill its role; I just said that by Shimei, and you, advocating for the killing of homosexuals, even though it is not illegal according to the government, you are working counter to your mission which is to reach the lost. I suggest that you first make sure that you are fulfilling God's role for you before you delve into fixing the legal system to fit your conclusions. I believe that when it comes to running the world God is in control and doesn't actually need your help. In other words, as the old bosses used to put it, "I'll (God will) worry about the business, you just do your job."

As far as your attempts at separating law and sin in the equation, Mosaic law is our foundation determining for what is sin. In this country Constitutional law determines legality, while Mosaic law, along with NT scripture, determines what is sinful. God punishes sin, the government punishes human law which has a lower standard.

Slavery was once legal. This is no different. When the laws are wrong you fight to get them changed.
We can be quite sure that we are doing what God wants because we have His Word and His desires are written therein.
Have you read The Plot?