ARCHIVE: Z Man asks... "what about grace?"

[Sozo]

You're not guilty of any of these? We are all sinners before the almighty God and all of us are 'worthy of death'. I don't see how you can stretch this to mean we should go out and murder all the homosexuals in the world..

:kookoo:

But fear no more, for we have grace!

Again, it's a gazillion mile stretch to take these passages and apply them to the idea that it's ok to go out and put homosexuals on death row.

You've lost your mind, Z.

If anyone breaks into your home and rapes your wife or molests your children, you would be a hypocrite to stop them, because you are also guilty of doing wrong. Make sure you tell your wife and children about grace in the midst of them getting being violated.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Homosexuality is a perversed form of sexual activity. It's an agreement between two people of the same sex to have intercourse. It may be a sin, but it's by no means a 'crime'!

God says otherwise....

Leviticus 20:13 ‘If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them.

Murder, raping, and kidnapping (the ones you listed) are done forcefully against another person without their consent. Someone was harmed or had their 'rights' taken away, thus the criminal should pay the price - there are human consequences that a criminal must pay for taking away the rights of another human being.

So... I assume you do not think adultery is criminal?

You cannot apply that same rule to homosexuals. They willfully do what they do to each other. It's not a crime. A sin yes - crime, no. If homosexuality should be a crime paid for by death, then so should lying, disobeying your parents, and every other sin that we all willfully participate in.

You are an idiot. :kookoo:

Have you ever read a Bible?

 

[Z Man]

You've lost your mind, Z.

That's an easy way for you to escape the argument. Where's your proof? We can call each other names or say we're stupid all day.

If anyone breaks into your home and rapes your wife or molests your children, you would be a hypocrite to stop them, because you are also guilty of doing wrong. Make sure you tell your wife and children about grace in the midst of them getting being violated.

Raping a person against their will, and having sex with someone who is willing, are two different things. It's not right for someone to rape my wife, and they should pay the price for it on a human level. For example, if someone takes $5 from me, they owe me $5. The law, or 'government', exists to provide us security. Thus, they enforce the law that if someone takes from me $5, they will repay it.

With that in mind, if someone takes from my wife her dignity without her consent, they should repay her. It's governments job to figure out what type of payment would equal that of raping her.

Now, with homosexuality, it's one person GIVING another person $5. They agree that the transaction is in agreement with the both of them. Thus, it's not the responsibility of the government to 'punish' either of them. However, we do know, as Christians, that homosexuality is wrong - it's a sin. And one day, those who live in such a way will be judged by God and punished accordingly. But so will we - we may not be gay, but we still sin in other ways. We are no better than homosexuals.

 

[Z Man]

God says otherwise....

Leviticus 20:13 ‘If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them.

By that same concept, would you endorse the killing of stubborn children?

Deuteronomy 21:18-21
If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and who, when they have chastened him, will not heed them, then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his city, to the gate of his city....Then all the men of his city shall stone him to death with stones; so you shall put away the evil from among you, and all Israel shall hear and fear.

So... I assume you do not think adultery is criminal?

Having sex with someone other than your wife is definitly a crime. When two people marry, they take a legal vow to remain faithful. If that legal vow is broken, then they should be punished. It's a crime.

You are an idiot. :kookoo:

Have you ever read a Bible?

This lack of intellect on your part will not get us anywhere...

Can anyone tell me why they think homosexuals should be executed while they themselves be spared? Why do you think you're better than they?

 

[Servo]

Z Man,
Straight up, was it wrong for God to kill everyone human being (except Noah and family) in the flood?
Yes or no?

 

[Z Man]

Z Man,
Straight up, was it wrong for God to kill everyone human being (except Noah and family) in the flood?
Yes or no?

No. God is never wrong.

 

[Sozo]

That's an easy way for you to escape the argument. Where's your proof? We can call each other names or say we're stupid all day.

Raping a person against their will, and having sex with someone who is willing, are two different things. It's not right for someone to rape my wife, and they should pay the price for it on a human level. On a more simple level, if someone takes $5 from me, they owe me $5. The law, or 'government', exists to provide us security. Thus, they enforce the law that if someone takes from me $5, they will repay it.

With that in mind, if someone takes from my wife her dignity without her consent, they should repay her. It's governments job to figure out what type of payment would equal that of raping her.

Now, with homosexuality, it's one person GIVING another person $5. They agree that the transaction is in agreement with the both of them. Thus, it's not the responsibility of the government to 'punish' either of them. However, we do know, as Christians, that homosexuality is wrong - it's a sin. And one day, those who live in such a way will be judged by God and punished accordingly. But so will we - we may not be gay, but we still sin in other ways. We are no better than homosexuals.

This is just another indication of how Calvinism leads to doctrines of demons.

So then you advocate any behavior where two or more people are in agreement?

If you are going to be consistent, then adultery is not a crime. Fornication is not a crime. As long as your dog doesn't object it's not a crime. Taking drugs is lawful. Prostitution, orgies, bigamy, etc.

It does not matter what society says, because you have made a sweeping statement about what should be a crime and what shouldn't.

The fact is, crimes are determined by the problems that a society creates, and those things which need to be brought under control. This is why we have speed limits, DWI's, and other laws and rules to govern countries, states, cities, schools, businesses, churches, and homes. I suppose it is fine with you if two homosexual pastors have sex in your church office, because although it's a sin, it's not a crime, and they are free to do as they choose as long as they are willing to answer to God.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Having sex with someone other than your wife is definitly a crime. When two people marry, they take a legal vow to remain faithful. If that legal vow is broken, then they should be punished. It's a crime.

But... but... what about grace????

 

[Z Man]

This is just another indication of how Calvinism leads to doctrines of demons.

Let's not go down that road. Calvinism has nothing to do with this one. I'm sure you could pull out your magic and say it does, like you have with this homosexual issue, but I'm not interested in arguing theological doctrines about Calvinism/OV'er.

So then you advocate any behavior where two or more people are in agreement?

No. I never, ever said that I advocate homosexual behavior. Your ignorance shows when you have to derail an argument via false accusations because you cannot come up with any credible source to make your own argument true. It's a desperate move on your part...

If you are going to be consistent, then adultery is not a crime. Fornication is not a crime. As long as your dog doesn't object it's not a crime. Taking drugs is lawful. Prostitution, orgies, bigamy, etc.

It does not matter what society says, because you have made a sweeping statement about what should be a crime and what shouldn't.

You've made this argument up, or you gravely misunderstood me. I haven't suggested such things.

I still believe that the best you can come up with is attacks and fasle accusations against me in order to distract the argument away from the burden of proof that lies in your hands.

Please explain, why should homosexuals be killed for their sins, but you be spared from yours?

I suppose it is fine with you if two homosexual pastors have sex in your church office, because although it's a sin, it's not a crime, and they are free to do as they choose as long as they are willing to answer to God.

Again, I've never said I agree with homosexuality. I still think its wrong, however, I do not believe we should kill them. If you believe homosexuals should be killed because of their sins, then you should also believe that you should be killed for yours. To imply otherwise is hypocritical.

 

[Servo]

No. God is never wrong.

So when God kills someone, it is ok, agreed?

How about if God appointed someone (such as the government) to kill someone (such as a murderer)? Is that ok for God to do? Yes or no?

 

[Z Man]

But... but... what about grace????

Knight, why do you think you're better than homosexuals? Why do you think they should be murdered for their sins, but you should be spared?

 

[Z Man]

So when God kills someone, it is ok, agreed?

Of course.

How about if God appointed someone (such as the government) to kill someone (such as a murderer)? Is that ok for God to do? Yes or no?

Yes, its ok for God to do that. Again, God can do whatever He pleases - He's never wrong.

However, this question assumes many things and opens up a can of worms. Would you allow me to kill your son if I approached you and said God appointed me to do it?

 

[Sozo]

I haven't suggested such things.

You most certainly have.

I still believe that the best you can come up with is attacks and fasle accusations against me in order to distract the argument away from the burden of proof that lies in your hands.

I didn't say anything against you. You're delusional and paranoid.

Please explain, why should homosexuals be killed for their sins, but you be spared from yours?

I never said they should be executed for sin. They should be executed because homosexuality should be a crime. The fact that it is not, only proves that our government is corrupt. I don't think anyone should be executed for sin. Are you paying attention?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Knight, why do you think you're better than homosexuals? Why do you think they should be murdered for their sins, but you should be spared?

Because I have not committed any capital crimes. :duh:

God says homosexuality is a capital crime.

I have not committed the crime of homosexuality, have you?

Furthermore....
We don't "murder" capital criminals. :hammer: Instead... we kill them. There is a difference.

 

[Z Man]

Because I have not committed any capital crimes. :duh:

God says homosexuality is a capital crime.

God also says disobeying your parents is a capital crime. Have you ever been stubborn to your parents, or have your kids been stubborn to you?

If people should be killed for thier sins, we all should be dead.

 

[Z Man]

I never said they should be executed for sin. They should be executed because homosexuality should be a crime.

You think it's a crime because it's a sin. Thus you believe homosexuals should be executed because of thier sin.

 

[Clete]

No one thinks that homosexuality is a crime simply because it is a sin, Z Man. There are all sorts of sins that are not crimes. Crimes are sins to be sure, but they are not crimes because they are sins.

You seem ignorant of even the most basic principles of criminal justice and so I'm honestly at somewhat of a loss to know where to begin on this issue. I don't have any choice but to start by asking you some questions so as to figure out where our common ground is or if any such common ground even exists.

Do you believe that ANY criminal should ever be punished by the government for ANY crime?

If so, what crimes warrant what punishments and why?

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Z Man]

No one thinks that homosexuality is a crime simply because it is a sin, Z Man. There are all sorts of sins that are not crimes. Crimes are sins to be sure, but they are not crimes because they are sins.

So you believe homosexuality is a crime, and the punishment for those guilty should be death? Knight quoted a verse from Lev. to support the idea that homosexuality is a crime and punishable by death. But I showed him a law in Deut. that said disobeying your parents was also a crime punishable by death.

Therefore, according to you and Knight's logic, disobeying your parents should be a crime and stubborn children should be put to death. Agree or disagree? If you disagree, explain how it is different from the law against homosexuality.

You seem ignorant of even the most basic principles of criminal justice...

I'm sorry. I forgot you knew everything...

Do you believe that ANY criminal should ever be punished by the government for ANY crime?

If so, what crimes warrant what punishments and why?

I'm not a lawyer or a judge, so I can't make such conclusions. It's not my job to decide what crimes warrant what punishments. I have my own personal opinions, but I don't think they matter much in a diverse society such as ours, where everyone's liberty is promoted even when there are times I wish some peoples' liberties weren't.

There are two distictions here as well. There is man's law, and there is God's law. God's law and standards are based upon perfection and holiness, one which no man can follow or attain. We all fall short...

Man's law, however, is a much lower standard. There are people in this world who can manage to live thier whole lives in compliance with man's law. They can avoid jail and being guilty of committing crimes thier whole lives. This gives them the false assumption that they are 'good' people. But, according to God's law/standard, we're all guilty.

The Jews recieved the law from God and did their best to follow it, but it only proved to them, and to the whole world, that we can only fall short of the glory of God. We need a Savior. The law defined all sorts of crimes, such as eating shellfish, disobeying your parents, and even committing homosexual acts. Some crimes called for death; others were less severe. Now, according to you and Knight, homosexuals are criminals and should be put to death because the Bibls says so. Thus, in the same sense, you MUST also believe that disobediant children should be killed as well.

Again, God's law only proves that we are not perfect. If we were to enforce God's law to the t, then we would all be making sacrifices to Him daily at the temple - most of us would be stoned. You can't just pick and choose which 'crimes' from God's law you would like to enforce, such as homosexuality, and which ones you choose to ignore, like eating shellfish, or stoning to death disobediant children.

 

[drbrumley]

So you believe homosexuality is a crime, and the punishment for those guilty should be death? Knight quoted a verse from Lev. to support the idea that homosexuality is a crime and punishable by death. But I showed him a law in Deut. that said disobeying your parents was also a crime punishable by death.

Therefore, according to you and Knight's logic, disobeying your parents should be a crime and stubborn children should be put to death. Agree or disagree? If you disagree, explain how it is different from the law against homosexuality.

I'm sorry. I forgot you knew everything...

I'm not a lawyer or a judge, so I can't make such conclusions. It's not my job to decide what crimes warrant what punishments. I have my own personal opinions, but I don't think they matter much in a diverse society such as ours, where everyone's liberty is promoted even when there are times I wish some peoples' liberties weren't.

There are two distictions here as well. There is man's law, and there is God's law. God's law and standards are based upon perfection and holiness, one which no man can follow or attain. We all fall short...

Man's law, however, is a much lower standard. There are people in this world who can manage to live thier whole lives in compliance with man's law. They can avoid jail and being guilty of committing crimes thier whole lives. This gives them the false assumption that they are 'good' people. But, according to God's law/standard, we're all guilty.

The Jews recieved the law from God and did their best to follow it, but it only proved to them, and to the whole world, that we can only fall short of the glory of God. We need a Savior. Anyways, the law defined all sorts of crimes, such as eating shellfish, or disobeying your children, and even committing homosexual acts. Some crimes called for death; others were less severe. Now, according to you and Knight, homosexuals are criminals and should be put to death because the Bibls says so. Thus, in the same sense, you MUST also believe that disobediant children should be killed as well.

Again, God's law only proves that we are not perfect. If we were to enforce God's law to the t, then we would all be making sacrifices to Him daily at the temple - most of us would be stoned. You can't just pick and choose which 'crimes' from God's law you would like to enforce, such as homosexuality, and which ones you choose to ignore, like eating shellfish, or stoning to death disobediant children.

And this is why Christianity has become complacent.

 

[Z Man]

And this is why Christianity has become complacent.

You can blame Jesus for that. I didn't see Him come down from Heaven and start killing everyone who sinned, or committed 'crimes'. As people were committing the greatest crime ever, Christ asked the Father to 'forgive them, for they know not what they do'.

Becoming a Christian doesn't give you the right to go into the world and make people suffer; on the contrary, we are to go into the world and suffer for their sakes. Just as Jesus did to his disciples and all the people he came in contact with, we need to serve sinners, not stone them.

"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."