ARCHIVE - You can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar
- Thread starter Nathon Detroit
- Start date
Kate you say...
I actually never said that, I said the conversation was "uncomfortable".
Jesus called some people "Vipers" , He called others "swine" He even made His own whip and chased people with it! Are those things more like honey, or more like vinegar?
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I am amazed how often this "vipers" thing comes up.
I'm not a christian, and even I know who he was addressing. And who was that? The "sinners"? The taxcollectors? The harlots?
NOooooooooooooooo. It was the people of the church, who had their noses up in the air, and thought they were better than everyone else. How many times does this have to be pointed out, exactly? Or do those who think they have license to cast condemnation on others because they are christian going to just continue to ignore that?
And let's see. Jesus makes a whip and drives people out of the temple. Was Jesus driving out the harlots? The taxcollectors? The sinners? Noooooooooooooooooo. He was driving out people who were selling sacreliging THE TEMPLE ITSELF. Those (help me - you know it ) WITHIN THE CHURCH. Yeah, there you go.
(eye rolling). I can't believe that I have to point that out to YOU.
Honestly, I think that misusing such verses is spreading falsehood, and to do it when you know better, and it has been pointed out repeatedly, makes you a liar.
Do I condemn you for it? No. You condemn yourself. It will make people think you aren't to be believed. That's its own consequence.
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I am amazed how often this "vipers" thing comes up.
I'm not a christian, and even I know who he was addressing. And who was that? The "sinners"? The taxcollectors? The harlots?
NOooooooooooooooo. It was the people of the church, who had their noses up in the air, and thought they were better than everyone else. How many times does this have to be pointed out, exactly? Or do those who think they have license to cast condemnation on others because they are christian going to just continue to ignore that?
And let's see. Jesus makes a whip and drives people out of the temple. Was Jesus driving out the harlots? The taxcollectors? The sinners? Noooooooooooooooooo. He was driving out people who were selling sacreliging THE TEMPLE ITSELF. Those (help me - you know it ) WITHIN THE CHURCH. Yeah, there you go.
(eye rolling). I can't believe that I have to point that out to YOU.
Honestly, I think that misusing such verses is spreading falsehood, and to do it when you know better, and it has been pointed out repeatedly, makes you a liar.
Do I condemn you for it? No. You condemn yourself. It will make people think you aren't to be believed. That's its own consequence.
It doesn't surprise me that the flies/honey/vinegar analogy is taken literally, and in so, misses the point, much as I see many fundamentalists missing the point of the Bible by taking everything literaly.
Jesus wasn't a door. He doesn't say he was LIKE a door. He says, Behold, I am a door. But that doesn't make him a door.
The saying, "you can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar" means that you can attract more people with kind words than with harsh ones.
I can already here the reactionary extreme. "Yes, but I should nicely ask someone to get out of the street if a car is careening down the road." Well, duh. It's not a black/white issue. Point out a fault, but you better be doing some self reflection first, or else you will be doing no one any good. On another thread someone said, "This is your last chance! Repent or you will spend eternity in hell!" Projill laughed. I rolled my eyes. It did no one any good.
I am drawn to people that seem calm, genuinely giving, humble, kind, self reflective, gentle, and have integrity. When I see someone telling me that it is my "last chance," i think "my last chance with YOU, but I don't need your forgiveness. This is between me and God. Now go away.
There is a time for gentle help, a time for intervention, a time for strong words, and a time to mind your own business.
Jesus wasn't a door. He doesn't say he was LIKE a door. He says, Behold, I am a door. But that doesn't make him a door.
The saying, "you can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar" means that you can attract more people with kind words than with harsh ones.
I can already here the reactionary extreme. "Yes, but I should nicely ask someone to get out of the street if a car is careening down the road." Well, duh. It's not a black/white issue. Point out a fault, but you better be doing some self reflection first, or else you will be doing no one any good. On another thread someone said, "This is your last chance! Repent or you will spend eternity in hell!" Projill laughed. I rolled my eyes. It did no one any good.
I am drawn to people that seem calm, genuinely giving, humble, kind, self reflective, gentle, and have integrity. When I see someone telling me that it is my "last chance," i think "my last chance with YOU, but I don't need your forgiveness. This is between me and God. Now go away.
There is a time for gentle help, a time for intervention, a time for strong words, and a time to mind your own business.
Goose
New member
beanieboy,
You made a lot of points. Just to whom were you addressing your post to? Sounds like you did a lot of judging yourself. Did you judge righteously? Have you taken the splinter out of your own eye before ours?
Your posts were the kind of posts that people write to make themselves feel better about being a non-christian sinner and thinking your going to heaven because you've exposed us as Pharisees. Please, dont tell anyone! Oh wait, am I a hypocrite? I do remember repenting and being forgiven and not doing sinful things anymore and accepting Grace. Hmm, I've cast the beam out of my eye...Sounds pretty close to Matthew 7. You might want to read that.
Just because Jesus died to save the world, doesn't mean that he will save you if you DENY Him. Denying that you believe in Him in public is a good example, like you just made. Can you get any worse? Why would you say your a non-christian in public? IN A CHRISTIAN PEOPLE'S CHAT FORUM?!?!? You probably hate the notion of taking up your own cross and walking like Jesus did, admitting that you CAN be fixed. In your posts, you seem to hate the cross, the burden of your sins that you need to place at Jesus' feet and confession of those sins so that you can be made good. You're trying to make yourself righteous by your knowhow, not by God's.
Mat 10:32-33 "Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven."
Mar 10:21 "Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me."
These aren't my words, but the Lord's. Do you feel like you don't need to repent? Are you the type of person that says, "Forgive me Father for the sin I'm about to commit" Are you a repeat offender? I have felt like this before I opened my heart to Him. You CAN have a remmission of sins. I noticed that I was mad at myself because I couldn't be perfect on my own and that it would take TIME because I was so much a sinner. but I learned about the GRACE of God, how if I try and do the things he commands me, I'll be alright.
You made a lot of points. Just to whom were you addressing your post to? Sounds like you did a lot of judging yourself. Did you judge righteously? Have you taken the splinter out of your own eye before ours?
Your posts were the kind of posts that people write to make themselves feel better about being a non-christian sinner and thinking your going to heaven because you've exposed us as Pharisees. Please, dont tell anyone! Oh wait, am I a hypocrite? I do remember repenting and being forgiven and not doing sinful things anymore and accepting Grace. Hmm, I've cast the beam out of my eye...Sounds pretty close to Matthew 7. You might want to read that.
Just because Jesus died to save the world, doesn't mean that he will save you if you DENY Him. Denying that you believe in Him in public is a good example, like you just made. Can you get any worse? Why would you say your a non-christian in public? IN A CHRISTIAN PEOPLE'S CHAT FORUM?!?!? You probably hate the notion of taking up your own cross and walking like Jesus did, admitting that you CAN be fixed. In your posts, you seem to hate the cross, the burden of your sins that you need to place at Jesus' feet and confession of those sins so that you can be made good. You're trying to make yourself righteous by your knowhow, not by God's.
Mat 10:32-33 "Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven."
Mar 10:21 "Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me."
These aren't my words, but the Lord's. Do you feel like you don't need to repent? Are you the type of person that says, "Forgive me Father for the sin I'm about to commit" Are you a repeat offender? I have felt like this before I opened my heart to Him. You CAN have a remmission of sins. I noticed that I was mad at myself because I couldn't be perfect on my own and that it would take TIME because I was so much a sinner. but I learned about the GRACE of God, how if I try and do the things he commands me, I'll be alright.
goose said:
The thread was started by Knight, but it is a quote that the idol Enyart likes to say. I was pointing out that a christian was claiming the right to judge others harshly, based on the fact that Jesus called "some people" vipers. He wasn't calling the sinners vipers. He was calling the religious people vipers. And to just refer to "some people" without specifying that Jesus was addressing those WITHIN the church, to justify judging others harshly, is spreading falsehood.
But I've said this before, and it falls on deaf ears. Pearls before swine, I think is what Christ called it. Hardened hearts. Some people refuse to see the truth, even when they claim to worship someone who is the Truth, the Light , and the Way.
goose said:
In the words of Depeche Mode, "Everybody's waiting for the Judgement Day, so they can say, 'Told you so.' "
I am a non-Christian. I point it out because I find it weird that when the bible is quoted out of context, I can point it out, yet the follower seems to miss the point. Why would I point that out in a (gasp) christian forum? Might I ask why you would even question me being here? Or are you here just to preach to the choir?
beanie says...
The Sadducees didn't even believe in a after life, angels or a spiritual life in general. John the Bapist called them "vipers" and Jesus called them “hypocrites” and “a wicked and adulterous generation” (Matt. 16:1-4; 22:23).
And you are claiming the Pharisees and the Sadducees are part of Christ's church???
So just who is spreading the falsehood?
Are you claiming that the Pharisees and the Sadducees would be considered part of "the Church"??
The Sadducees didn't even believe in a after life, angels or a spiritual life in general. John the Bapist called them "vipers" and Jesus called them “hypocrites” and “a wicked and adulterous generation” (Matt. 16:1-4; 22:23).
And you are claiming the Pharisees and the Sadducees are part of Christ's church???
So just who is spreading the falsehood?
Just a side note to keep things on track.... the point is that Jesus often did not use a "honey" type approach when evangelizing to others, He often (not always - but often) used what we might call a "vinegar" type approach when evangelizing regardless of who the audience was.
Atheist_Divine
New member
Of course Christianity is a religion.
Religion = worship of a god. Therefore Christianity is a religion. I don't see what all the fuss is about.
Religion = worship of a god. Therefore Christianity is a religion. I don't see what all the fuss is about.
"Religion" just doesn't fit in with our neat, "Christian" reproduction of sixties spirituality. Has anyone seen my blue-tinted sunglasses, bell bottoms, LSD, or my guitar?
I'm partial to being part of the Christian religion.
Personally, I think we need to evangelize as people of God: ie with integrity, truth, and enthusiasm for the GOSPEL.
I believe we should NOT evangelize by: smiling a whole lot more than the average person, reproducing mediocre anti-social sub-cultures for the saking of being relevant, pretending we like someone. That is all a bunch of b.s. and anyone can see through it. Anyone who is attracted to it is also full of a certain substance known as dung.
Luther
I'm partial to being part of the Christian religion.
Personally, I think we need to evangelize as people of God: ie with integrity, truth, and enthusiasm for the GOSPEL.
I believe we should NOT evangelize by: smiling a whole lot more than the average person, reproducing mediocre anti-social sub-cultures for the saking of being relevant, pretending we like someone. That is all a bunch of b.s. and anyone can see through it. Anyone who is attracted to it is also full of a certain substance known as dung.
Luther
His_saving_Grac
New member
Re: You can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar
Re: You can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar
They were NOT saying be more tolerant of those who reject Christ, but show them the love of Christ. Why in the world, would I choose to do the will of an angry, hateful, threatening God? I wouldn't and neither did your family member, nor the one who called you up.
If all you can do in witnessing is to tell them of what will happen if they DON'T, then you are getting false converts out of fear, and not those who truely love and repent to God.
20+ years ago, God, for the second time in my life, came to me and spoke to me. I knew his message, and I rejected it because I could not "love" him. The same quotes and same threats had been used on me to convert, and I did, but I never loved Him. I feared, but didn't feel one bit of love for Him. The reason was, to me, he was not a God of love, but a God of terror. I found more in the bible that made HIM look evil than I did to show that Satan was the evil one.
You see, I was one of those who went to church every week, was a member of the Youth Services, was a participant in all the programs for all the holidays. I was baptized in His name, in the trinity. But I didn't LOVE God. I was just like 99% of those in here, and in the world who don't actually read the entire bible, but hear only 5-10 disjointed verses placed together to get a message, and almost everytime that message was one of fear. Do it or ELSE!
So when, 20+ years ago, as a young adult, I started reading the bible myself, and found out that the bible just did NOT say what I had been taught. So I rejected the god of liars, for that is how I thought of the church, and of Him. I had rejected him for 5 years before He personally protected me from an attack on my sanity, and my soul, by a minion of His nemesis.
At that time, he wanted me to do something. I buried it deep, along with most of the terrors visited on me that day, and ignored Him. I passed on what He did for me, and what I knew he wanted me to say, but I avoided the bible because that was written about the same kind of god that you see. A god of anger, deceit, hate, revenge, and more.
20+ years of my life wasted because I had been taught WRONG about the bible and about God.
A little over a year ago, I had my 6th experiance with God. I call it an experiance because these are what many would have called "miracles", but many don't accept the idea of miracles, so I will use a term that is acceptable to everyone.
I have told everyone what that experiance was, and how it transformed me. I finally realized I wasn't rejecting God, I was rejecting the lies I had been taught about Him. I was rejecting the church doctrines and their need to be the only way to God. Each church likes to think their denomination has the only access to God. And while some may not say that, they all say it with their eyes by mentioning "The preist of this church comes to hear me preach". I have heard that so many times it sickens me. I come to hear/feel God.
You asked if Jesus would ever say "You can catch more flies with honey than vinegar." Yes, and he did. He did it with the parable of the Prodigle son, and the parable of the one lost sheep. God rejoices over the return of one lost sheep more than he does over all the sheep that were never lost.
You call flies pests, and to you, atheists are pests. I think that speaks volumes about your depth of faith. Do you remember what Jesus said about faith moving mountains? When you run from an atheist, he/she has beaten you. Your faith is worthless since you did not allow God/Jesus to work through you and to bring this person to him.
With God, all things are possible. Why do you reject this? Jesus said it, and you say you stand for what Jesus said. If you are full of the Holy Spirit, satan/evil can not touch you, but you can touch the lives of millions. Give it a chance to work in you. He WANTS to work through you, if you will let Him. Do you HONESTLY not believe this?
Re: You can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar
You make many statements here ND, and I think their is a misunderstanding in how you witness. The purpose of "witnessing" is to bring people TO God. If you are not achieving that, then you are not effectively witnessing.Knight said:
They were NOT saying be more tolerant of those who reject Christ, but show them the love of Christ. Why in the world, would I choose to do the will of an angry, hateful, threatening God? I wouldn't and neither did your family member, nor the one who called you up.
If all you can do in witnessing is to tell them of what will happen if they DON'T, then you are getting false converts out of fear, and not those who truely love and repent to God.
20+ years ago, God, for the second time in my life, came to me and spoke to me. I knew his message, and I rejected it because I could not "love" him. The same quotes and same threats had been used on me to convert, and I did, but I never loved Him. I feared, but didn't feel one bit of love for Him. The reason was, to me, he was not a God of love, but a God of terror. I found more in the bible that made HIM look evil than I did to show that Satan was the evil one.
You see, I was one of those who went to church every week, was a member of the Youth Services, was a participant in all the programs for all the holidays. I was baptized in His name, in the trinity. But I didn't LOVE God. I was just like 99% of those in here, and in the world who don't actually read the entire bible, but hear only 5-10 disjointed verses placed together to get a message, and almost everytime that message was one of fear. Do it or ELSE!
So when, 20+ years ago, as a young adult, I started reading the bible myself, and found out that the bible just did NOT say what I had been taught. So I rejected the god of liars, for that is how I thought of the church, and of Him. I had rejected him for 5 years before He personally protected me from an attack on my sanity, and my soul, by a minion of His nemesis.
At that time, he wanted me to do something. I buried it deep, along with most of the terrors visited on me that day, and ignored Him. I passed on what He did for me, and what I knew he wanted me to say, but I avoided the bible because that was written about the same kind of god that you see. A god of anger, deceit, hate, revenge, and more.
20+ years of my life wasted because I had been taught WRONG about the bible and about God.
A little over a year ago, I had my 6th experiance with God. I call it an experiance because these are what many would have called "miracles", but many don't accept the idea of miracles, so I will use a term that is acceptable to everyone.
I have told everyone what that experiance was, and how it transformed me. I finally realized I wasn't rejecting God, I was rejecting the lies I had been taught about Him. I was rejecting the church doctrines and their need to be the only way to God. Each church likes to think their denomination has the only access to God. And while some may not say that, they all say it with their eyes by mentioning "The preist of this church comes to hear me preach". I have heard that so many times it sickens me. I come to hear/feel God.
You asked if Jesus would ever say "You can catch more flies with honey than vinegar." Yes, and he did. He did it with the parable of the Prodigle son, and the parable of the one lost sheep. God rejoices over the return of one lost sheep more than he does over all the sheep that were never lost.
You call flies pests, and to you, atheists are pests. I think that speaks volumes about your depth of faith. Do you remember what Jesus said about faith moving mountains? When you run from an atheist, he/she has beaten you. Your faith is worthless since you did not allow God/Jesus to work through you and to bring this person to him.
With God, all things are possible. Why do you reject this? Jesus said it, and you say you stand for what Jesus said. If you are full of the Holy Spirit, satan/evil can not touch you, but you can touch the lives of millions. Give it a chance to work in you. He WANTS to work through you, if you will let Him. Do you HONESTLY not believe this?
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His_saving_Grac
New member
You are right Luthor. We shouldn't lie about liking someone. We should, being TRUE christians, really LOVE that person. If you can't, then are you REALLY full of the Holy Spirit? And if not, what are you evangelizing? Words mean nothing if the Spirit isn't there. And if you can not truly love as Jesus did, maybe it isn't outside we should be looking for the problem, but inside. Don't do what I did. You may not have the 20 years he gave me to wisen up.Luther said:
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Goose
New member
I agree. But what is a definition if the listener interprets it differently then it's intent? When most people say religion, I bet most people think of the people you just described. Besides, I was describing the heart, not it's outward work. I was born in the 80's by the way....
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Goose
New member
Knight,
I've had similar experiences with my WHOLE family. My brother and I are the only ones who try to have a strong relationship with God.
My parents say that since they grew up going to a catholic school, they don't need what we do(church, bible, etc.). Yet my dad always comes to us with questions. It's hard to describe heavenly things. Like in John, where Jesus was talking about the re-birth to Nicodemus.
Goose
I've had similar experiences with my WHOLE family. My brother and I are the only ones who try to have a strong relationship with God.
My parents say that since they grew up going to a catholic school, they don't need what we do(church, bible, etc.). Yet my dad always comes to us with questions. It's hard to describe heavenly things. Like in John, where Jesus was talking about the re-birth to Nicodemus.
Goose
You don't have to be from the 60's to have the religion of a beat-nick (sp?). Those hippies are now the ones in the pulpits and perpetuating the same nonsense.
When I think of "Not a religion, it's a relationship", I think of people trying really hard to be spiritual while reading the Left Behind series. These individuals live a mediocre life, careful not to offend anyone, living a sanitized, lysol-filled life. These people reject creedal statements, promote "no creed but Christ" while they're watching Touched by an Angel and all sorts of other sappy nonsense that evangelicals use as an opiate. To proclaim relationship over creed tends to lose theological significance and reduces salvation to a buddy buddy relationship. It lacks any substance, and is what is most popular today. I am what people would describe as "confessional". I like creeds, I like hymns, I like church history and believe in the communion of saints. This may all sound incredibly random, it's just you happened to step on a pet peeve of mine.
Luther