ARCHIVE: The Apostle Pauls affirms that a Christian can sin.

[elected4ever]

Maybe. But sin ain't. :dizzy:

Yes it is. :dunce:

 

[Clete]

I'll ask this here: Can a Christian transgress the law?

No.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Acts commited out of the dead will of the flesh that the dead law calls sin. They are dead works of the dead flesh that we are not any more.

And what do you call those "acts"?

If you can't call them "sin" (as the Apostle Paul did) what do you call them?

 

[Philetus]

It is not about what you do nitwit. It is about who you are. The law is DEAD

Quote:
Originally Posted by Philetus
Maybe. But sin ain't.

E4E: Yes it is.

:nono:
What world do you live in? :duh:

 

[elected4ever]

And what do you call those "acts"?

If you can't call them "sin" (as the Apostle Paul did) what do you call them?

He also called them dead works. But whether sin or dead works they are not mine and if you are in Christ they are not yours. So call them what you will. Fact is if they are yours then you are not saved. Plane and simple.

 

[elected4ever]

:nono:
What world do you live in? :duh:

I am in this world but I am not of this world. :chuckle:

 

[Nathon Detroit]

He also called them dead works. But whether sin or dead works they are not mine and if you are in Christ they are not yours. So call them what you will. Fact is if they are yours then you are not saved. Plane and simple.

I will stick with the apostle Paul and his use of the word thank you very much.

1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live. 7 However, there is not in everyone that knowledge; for some, with consciousness of the idol, until now eat it as a thing offered to an idol; and their conscience, being weak, is defiled. 8 But food does not commend us to God; for neither if we eat are we the better, nor if we do not eat are we the worse. 9 But beware lest somehow this liberty of yours become a stumbling block to those who are weak. 10 For if anyone sees you who have knowledge eating in an idol’s temple, will not the conscience of him who is weak be emboldened to eat those things offered to idols? 11 And because of your knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died? 12 But when you thus sin against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ.​

 

[Benjamin]

Who is James talking too?

If I were you I would be embarrased that I wrote this. Lewt us try to do a breif study....pay close attention so I don't overwhelm you with Scriptural truth here:

James 5:19-20
Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.

This is written to Christians.

James 3:1
My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment. (especially since e4e says your not saved!)

James 1:2
My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials (on second though don't 1 Peter 20-21/ Matthew 5:11)

James 1:12
Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him. (Jamessss, they have to get saved first!)

James 5:7
Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. (Wait, did you just write this to Messiah denyers? Of course not!)

The scripture is in my favor and not yours. You are the liar and distorter of the truth.

This Scripture is indeed in your favor, since you fit the bill of one who has "wandered from the truth".

 

[Benjamin]

It is not about what you do nitwit. It is about who you are. The law is DEAD

Romans 5:14
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

Sin existed before the law. How? Read Romans 2:14-16 and 1:20 of the same epistle.

 

[elected4ever]

If I were you I would be embarrased that I wrote this. Lewt us try to do a breif study....pay close attention so I don't overwhelm you with Scriptural truth here:

James 5:19-20
Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.

This is written to Christians.

James 3:1
My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment. (especially since e4e says your not saved!)

James 1:2
My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials (on second though don't 1 Peter 20-21/ Matthew 5:11)

James 1:12
Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him. (Jamessss, they have to get saved first!)

James 5:7
Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. (Wait, did you just write this to Messiah denyers? Of course not!)




This Scripture is indeed in your favor, since you fit the bill of one who has "wandered from the truth".

You must be an imbecile. James tell us who he is writing too so there can be no mistake. James 1:1 ¶James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
If you are that stupid I don't see any reason to answer any more of your post.

 

[Benjamin]

That is only if we remain in the Flesh. Which we do not. If you remain in the flesh evee, then yes you still sin. Are you happy that you can still sin?

Which we don't remain in the flesh....we walkt according to the Spirit which produces this in us:

Galatians 5:22-23
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.

But it is not impossible for a Christian to make a mistake:

Galatians 5:19-21
Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Certianly, even as a believer while I have not touched a drug in 5 years, I have fallen victom to my flesh in more personal ways when I was not careful- in which times I utilized this:

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

You do realize that upon initial salvation, you do not have to sit down and confess all your many sins, right? This would be impossible. If this were a requirement then I would have been in big trouble. But it is not a requirement. Thi verse is about Christians after they are saved and have been a fool and let the flesh have it's way momentarily. Thank God for Jesus Christ my Lord!

 

[Benjamin]

Acts commited out of the dead will of the flesh that the dead law calls sin. They are dead works of the dead flesh that we are not any more.

We had better not be in the flesh. But if we fell victom to the flesh then we must repent and walk in the Spirit again.

(remember that "walking in the Spirit" is defined by these fruits which happen as a result automatically: Galatians 5:22-23 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.)

 

[Benjamin]

He also called them dead works. But whether sin or dead works they are not mine and if you are in Christ they are not yours. So call them what you will. Fact is if they are yours then you are not saved. Plane and simple.

I agree that confessed sin is as far as the east is from the west from a believer, but it could still be referred to as sin as it is in the Scripture.

 

[Benjamin]

You must be an imbecile. James tell us who he is writing too so there can be no mistake. James 1:1 ¶James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
If you are that stupid I don't see any reason to answer any more of your post.

Yea, he is OBVIOUSLY either 1. the biggest heretic to ever exist. or 2. writing to Jewish Christians which there obviously were many of (please read Acts).


So, you contend that James, head of the Jerusalem counsel, penned this in the Holy Spirit to unbelievers:

James 5:7
Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. (Wait, did you just write this to Messiah denyers? Of course not!)

 

[godrulz]

And what do you call those "acts"?

If you can't call them "sin" (as the Apostle Paul did) what do you call them?

Even if one wants to talk about a sin principle or nature, it still does not negate the other side of the coin of the teaching that identifies specific choices as sinful. Adultery is a sinful act in all dispensations. It is not a thing that indwells people. It cannot be euphemized away as a wrong doing just because we are under grace.

Oops...wrong thread. I will go back to my fly status (although if it has been moved to a one on one, I will stay out of that one and be the peanut gallery on this one).

 

[godrulz]

He also called them dead works. But whether sin or dead works they are not mine and if you are in Christ they are not yours. So call them what you will. Fact is if they are yours then you are not saved. Plane and simple.

Dead works are things like continuing to offer once legitimate animal sacrifices that are now worthless in light of His sacrifice once for all. This should not be confused with volitional sins like unbelief, murder, stealing, adultery, fornicating, idol worship, lying, hating parents, etc.

 

[godrulz]

Yea, he is OBVIOUSLY either 1. the biggest heretic to ever exist. or 2. writing to Jewish Christians which there obviously were many of (please read Acts).


So, you contend that James, head of the Jerusalem counsel, penned this in the Holy Spirit to unbelievers:

James 5:7
Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. (Wait, did you just write this to Messiah denyers? Of course not!)

Just as the 4 gospels were sharing the ONE gospel with 4 divergent audiences (Jews, Romans, Greeks, Believers...in that order), so some NT letters were slanted to those of Jewish background, while others were written to predominately Greekish churches. It is still one gospel told in a way that resonates with their different mindsets. Suggesting that most of the NT is not primarily applicable to the Church Age (neither Jew nor Gentile, but one in Christ) is significant error.

 

[Sozo]

Question..... Is stealing a sin?
Answer.... For someone in the flesh, and under the Law, it is.
Question.... Can a Christian steal something? Is he physically able?
Answer.... Technically, no. (I changed this)
Question.... Therefore, can a Christian sin?
Answer... No, A Christian is not in the flesh, or under the Law..
Question... Is a Christian condemned for that?
Answer.... No. A Christian is free from all condemnation, because they are no longer in the flesh, and no longer under the demands of the Law.

Now, let me propose something, that we may be able to come to an agreement on, and which you, e4e, lighthouse, and others might be willing to accept. For the sake of space, I am not going to quote a bunch of verses. I think that they will come to mind when appropriate. If you need them, let me know, because I can back up everything I'm saying with them.

e4e, lighthouse, and I have been rather dogmatic in our stance that a Christian is not someone who does not do wrong in the flesh, but the issue is that we are not in the flesh. The identity of a Christian is in the Spirit. That is what a Christian is. Our bodies and our souls still do those things that under the Law would be accounted as sin. On this, we agree. The flesh is sinning, and in fact Paul states in the book of Galatians that when you attempt to be perfected through the flesh, that the only thing things that the flesh can produce are the deeds of the flesh, because the Law will prove you a sinner. It is impossible for the flesh to do otherwise. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

This is important, don't miss what I'm saying here.

When we say that a Christian does not sin, we are speaking of someone who is a new creation, born of the Spirit. A Christian is not identified by the flesh, but alone by who they are in Christ, because we have died to that by which we were bound.

Okay, one verse...

"For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died; and He died for all, that they who live should no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf. Therefore from now on we recognize no man according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer. Therefore if any man is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come."

I can never concede that a Christian can sin. It is impossible for him to do so. However, I know that the body is still subject to the law of sin and death. It still sins. But, that is not who I am.

Now, as I said in my previous post...

I realize that Paul gives us a great deal of instruction on how God wants us to behave towards one another. How we should treat others in the Body, and how to treat those outside the church. The letters of Paul are filled with such. We can "offend" others, and God does not want us to do those things. We always do those things that, under the Law, were defined as sin.

For example, Paul says...

"See that no one repays another with evil for evil, but always seek after that which is good for one another and for all men."

"For this is the will of God, your sanctification; that is, that you abstain from sexual immorality; that each of you know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor, not in lustful passion, like the Gentiles who do not know God; and that no man transgress and defraud his brother in the matter because the Lord is the avenger in all these things, just as we also told you before and solemnly warned you. For God has not called us for the purpose of impurity, but in sanctification. Consequently, he who rejects this is not rejecting man but the God who gives His Holy Spirit to you."

Even though we are new creations in Christ, in the Spirit, and not in the flesh, we are told by Paul that we should not just give freedom to the flesh to do what it pleases, but to set it apart (sanctify it) unto God's purposes. This is the same thing he says when he tells us to present our bodies unto God, which is our spiritual service of worship. God does not want us to do those things that, under the Law, would be accounted as sin, and in fact are sins for those who do not know God. Paul does not say that a Christian sins, but that what we do with our bodies are sins, and God wants us to abstain from them.

I will post this on the other thread, so that e4e, lighthouse, or anyone elses that cares to, can respond.

 

[godrulz]

You are personifying flesh and confusing metaphysics with morals. Sin is not substance.

We cannot artificially divide spirit, soul, body. We have one will, not two wills. It is what we do with the body that is sinful or not sinful. If you put your genitals where they do not belong, that is sinful (fornication, adultery). If you keep them for God's gift of sexuality within marriage, then you are not immoral on that point nor sinful. Obedience vs disobedience is volitional. This is why we are responsible if we sin or not. We cannot blame it on Adam, the devil, nor the flesh. The flesh is not a literal thing with another competing will that makes us schizo or not responsible.

It is what you or we do or do not do, not what our flesh does or does not do. It is what we do with the flesh (body) that is the issue. If we yield to self-gratification, we are walking in the flesh, not the Spirit. If we yield to and conform to the Spirit and Word of God, we are walking in the Spirit on that point. It does not mean that we might not sin by gossiping or lying. Some are sexually immoral. Others misuse their tongues.

The many NT exhortations use you/we/I, not flesh, etc. Building a complicated doctrine based on a Pauline metaphor for sin and one or two passages that would create a contradiction with many more explicit passages is not rightly dividing the Word.

 

[Sozo]

I was hoping to hear from Christians on that post, not godless perverts.