ARCHIVE: The Apostle Pauls affirms that a Christian can sin.
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Sozo
New member
Knight said:
Paul says that the only way that we can know what sin is, is through the Law.
"I would not have come to know sin except through the Law"
"Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, that every mouth may be closed, and all the world may become accountable to God; because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.
The Law reveals sin. That is it's purpose.
The word sin has been defined as: missing the mark amartanete
It is falling short of the glory (all that God is and does) of God.
It is anything short of perfection.
Sin is lawlessness.
"...apart from the Law sin is dead"
"...where there is no law, there also is no violation"
Would you like to add or remove anything from these?
Memento Mori
New member
Sozo said:
I would, if that's ok.
The original sin of unbelief committed by Adam in the Garden of Eden.
Sin did reign even without Law from Adam 'till Moses.
Those are all good.Sozo said:
Here are a couple more....
Sin is, disobeying God's will.
Sin is, doing/engaging in immoral activities.
I think in the most general terms sin is doing something that God doesn't want us to do.
Sin can be a noun or a verb.
Just for yucks..... (from dictionary.com)
sin:
–noun
1. transgression of divine law: the sin of Adam.
2. any act regarded as such a transgression, esp. a willful or deliberate violation of some religious or moral principle.
3. any reprehensible or regrettable action, behavior, lapse, etc.; great fault or offense: It's a sin to waste time.
–verb (used without object)
4. to commit a sinful act.
5. to offend against a principle, standard, etc.
–verb (used with object)
6. to commit or perform sinfully: He sinned his crimes without compunction.
7. to bring, drive, etc., by sinning: He sinned his soul to perdition.
–noun
1. transgression of divine law: the sin of Adam.
2. any act regarded as such a transgression, esp. a willful or deliberate violation of some religious or moral principle.
3. any reprehensible or regrettable action, behavior, lapse, etc.; great fault or offense: It's a sin to waste time.
–verb (used without object)
4. to commit a sinful act.
5. to offend against a principle, standard, etc.
–verb (used with object)
6. to commit or perform sinfully: He sinned his crimes without compunction.
7. to bring, drive, etc., by sinning: He sinned his soul to perdition.
Can we all agree that the following verse is talking about believers?
Sozo, do you agree Paul is addressing believers in the above text?
I think it's pretty well accepted that Paul was admonishing Titus to avoid things that promote wickedness among fellow believers.
And what's the next thing Paul says?
Titus 3:11 knowing that such a person is warped and sinning, being self-condemned.Paul isn't saying the man is condemned to hell but he has condemned himself in regard to the brethren by acting sinful. (He has condemned himself as in other brothers shouldn't keep company with him.)
Paul says the same thing here....
Titus 3:4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. 8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men. :9 But avoid foolish disputes, genealogies, contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and useless. 10 Reject a divisive man after the first and second admonition,
It should be clear that Paul is talking to believers and saying that it isn't profitable or helpful to waste time with divisive brothers.Sozo, do you agree Paul is addressing believers in the above text?
I think it's pretty well accepted that Paul was admonishing Titus to avoid things that promote wickedness among fellow believers.
And what's the next thing Paul says?
Titus 3:11 knowing that such a person is warped and sinning, being self-condemned.
Paul says the same thing here....
2Thessalonians 3:13 But as for you, brethren, do not grow weary in doing good. 14 And if anyone does not obey our word in this epistle, note that person and do not keep company with him, that he may be ashamed. 15 Yet do not count him as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.
In summary.... Christians can sin. Sinning Christians are not to be counted "as the enemy" but they are sinning none the less and it may be wise (depending on the severity of the sin) to not even keep company with them!
Sozo
New member
You want this to be over quickly, don't you? :sigh:
I don't have the time to respond to all of your posts appropriately. It would not be fair to you, or anyone else.
In your last post he is telling believers to avoid someone who is sinning, not that they are sinning.
I'll get back to your definitions post in a bit.
I don't have the time to respond to all of your posts appropriately. It would not be fair to you, or anyone else.
In your last post he is telling believers to avoid someone who is sinning, not that they are sinning.
I'll get back to your definitions post in a bit.
Take your time.Sozo said:
So then you reject that in verse 10 Paul is referring to believers? (3:10 Reject a divisive man after the first and second admonition)
If you reject that, you are the only person I have ever heard assert that (including multiple commentaries etc.). I would have to strongly disagree with your assessment. With all due respect I think you are covering your eyes just a bit to avoid a clear refutation of your position.
OK, take your time and respond when you can. I think I will go watch a movie.
Sozo
New member
God's will?Knight said:
Do you mean rejecting the gospel? Obeying the Law? Making our bodies available to Him for His purposes? What do you mean by, God's will?
The bible defines immoral as a male prostitute, and immorality as sexual perversion. I don't know how you define "immoral".
Then that would be everything.
Are you saying that you can examine your behavior and that you are doing that which is pleasing to God in the flesh?
Are you saying that you do not fall short of the glory of God at moments in your life?
Are you saying that there are times when you are as perfect as God in your behavior?
That there are times in your day when you do not miss the mark? That you do not violate the Law?
You're a better man than I am.
I'm glad you said that, but sin is not defined by a dictionary.
"Yuck" is right.
Sozo
New member
He is warning the believers to reject someone who brings division. (like we all should with godrulz. However, since he has not been publically rebuked, and is encouraged to continue preaching a false gospel, I am obligated to continue warning other believers that there is a divisive man in the camp). A divisive man is literally a heretic.Knight said:
What, you think I've never read that verse before?
Give me a break.Sin City?
elected4ever
New member
A bird is a bird is a bird is a bird or is it? Some one may say that a bird has feathers. Yes, indeed it does. Someone else may say that a bird flies., and indeed most birds fly some do not. Someone may be familiar with a robin. A robin is a bird but does that make all birds robins? No' There are so many descriptions and examples of sin in the Bible that it is virtually imposable to describe all aspects of sin. Sin is indeed missing the mark but is all missing the mark sin? The answer to that question is no. The only missing the mark that qualifies as sin is not being as God intended. Sin is not therefore an act in and of itself. The act must flow from one source. Sin is the contradiction of God. It is a state of existence. This state of existences called sin is described in the bible in various ways and each description is accurate as being sin. Acts that flow from from the contradiction of God that are called sins. Yes there are acts of sin and we recognize sin by these acts. Sin itself is the contradiction of God. Sin contradicts God in God's person and in God's plan. That is what sin is.
Why do you make things so complicated?Sozo said:God's will?
Do you mean rejecting the gospel? Obeying the Law? Making our bodies available to Him for His purposes? What do you mean by, God's will?
When I say sin can be doing what is against God's will the statement is rather self explanatory isn't it? It is to do that which God doesn't want us to do.
I don't understand those statement(s)/question(s). I certainly don't understand why you would ask me them in this context. If I thought I didn't miss the mark why would I be arguing that Christians can sin?
If you are trying to confuse me..... it's working.
I feel comfortable using the word sin as Paul used it in the Bible. I threw in the dictionary definition so all the cards would be on the table.
And you believe that in the case of Titus 3 the divisive man is not a believer? :think: That's a bit odd, but you are free to think whatever you like.Sozo said:
The context seems rather obvious to me....
Titus 3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that THE CONTEXT: those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men. 9 THE SUBJECT: But avoid foolish disputes, genealogies, contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and useless. 10 THE ADVICE/EXAMPLE: Reject a divisive man after the first and second admonition, 11 THE CONCLUSION: knowing that such a person is warped and sinning, being self-condemned.
THE CONTEXT: those who have believed in God should
THE SUBJECT: avoid foolish disputes
THE ADVICE/EXAMPLE: Reject a divisive man
THE CONCLUSION: knowing that such a person is warped and sinning
It's just one example of many that I can use. I am not going to get hung up over one or two verses when there is so much material that refutes your argument.What, you think I've never read that verse before?
If you want you can go back to addressing the points I made earlier in the thread. :up:
elected4ever
New member
Do you not understand that the flesh is sinful? That the flesh is dead? That the flesh does not know God? Do you not understand that you are not in the flesh? Do you understand that the law is dead? Do you not understand that what the flesh does is not the action of the child of God? If you are judging yourself by the works that the flesh does whether good or bad you are not in the spirit and are therefore a sinner whether the flesh does something bad or not. What part of, "It is no longer I that do it but sin that dwells in me".do you not understand. If your theology insist that we are subject to the acts committed by the flesh and are indeed subject to the acts of the flesh then you are indeed preaching a gospel of the flesh and not the gospel of Christ. If you are subject to the flesh you will die in sin because you have not believed the gospel of Christ. All you turkeys better make up your mind as to who's property you are. You cannot be subject to the flesh and in the Spirit at the same time and you don't change sides because you wont too.Knight said:
I'll ask this here: Can a Christian transgress the law?
Sozo
New member
Let's look at the whole verse (I'm going to use the KJV because I think it is more clear)...Becky said:
"This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men. But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain. A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself."
Paul is admonishing believers to do good works, because they are profitiable. What is unprofitable is to get into disputes about things that do not concern believers. If some man comes to them with false doctrine, he is to be rejected after being warned twice. He is a pervert who corrupts the truth, and he is sinning. He condemns himself.
This is speaking of somone who is not a believer who is to be rejected for bringing in a false teaching to believers. He is a pervert and a sinner.
Sozo
New member
I agree, that sin is doing anything that God does not want us to do.Knight said:
That's a good definition! It agrees with my definition and with e4e's definition.
Sin is a contradiction of all that God is and wills.
In order for YOU to be a contradiction to God, you have to have a life that is contrary to God.
I'll say it your way...
In order to do anything that God does not want us to do, you have to have a life that is apart from God.
Is your life in the flesh, or in the Spirit? Is it in your body that is dead to God, or is it in your Spirit that is alive to God?
Who is the "us" in your sentence?
You may think that this is being semantical, or mystical, or impractical (I don't know), but I do know that Paul spent a great deal of his time trying to get this point across in all of his letters, because it was important to him (and therefore important to God), that a believer understand who he is in Christ. Who is the real (I'll use your TOL ID) Knight?
Are you a sinner or are you a child of God? Are you unrighteous or are you righteous? Are you in the flesh or in the Spirit? Are you under the Law or under grace?
I know what your answers are, and I know that you believe that who you were has died, and that your life is hidden in Christ in God, and that you are not your own. I know that you know that it is no longer YOU that lives, but that Christ lives in YOU. Jesus is your life.
Your identity is in Christ. He is your life. You are holy, righteous, blameless, complete, free from wrath, free from sin, free from the Law, and free from death.
Jesus said that everyone who lives and believes in Me shall never die.
Is your body going to die? Of course it is. Was Jesus lying? Of course not. Jesus knew then as Paul explains later that you are not that which dies. The body dies, and in fact is already dead because of sin. The spirit is alive because you are righteous in Him. You are not contrary to God. YOU do not do anything that God does not will. Your flesh does, but that is not who YOU are. YOU are a Christian, a child of God, born of the Spirit.
For YOU to sin, YOU would have to be in the flesh, under the Law, dead to God.
Romans 6:12
NASB: Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, (NASB ©1995)
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GWT: Therefore, never let sin rule your physical body so that you obey its desires. (GOD'S WORD®)
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KJV: Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
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ASV: Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey the lusts thereof:
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BBE: For this cause do not let sin be ruling in your body which is under the power of death, so that you give way to its desires;
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DBY: Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body to obey its lusts.
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WEY: Let not Sin therefore reign as king in your mortal bodies, causing you to be in subjection to their cravings;
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WBS: Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts of it.
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WEB: Therefore don't let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts.
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YLT: Let not then the sin reign in your mortal body, to obey it in its desires;
NASB: Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, (NASB ©1995)
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GWT: Therefore, never let sin rule your physical body so that you obey its desires. (GOD'S WORD®)
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KJV: Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
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ASV: Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey the lusts thereof:
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BBE: For this cause do not let sin be ruling in your body which is under the power of death, so that you give way to its desires;
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DBY: Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body to obey its lusts.
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WEY: Let not Sin therefore reign as king in your mortal bodies, causing you to be in subjection to their cravings;
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WBS: Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts of it.
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WEB: Therefore don't let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts.
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YLT: Let not then the sin reign in your mortal body, to obey it in its desires;