ARCHIVE: The Apostle Pauls affirms that a Christian can sin.

Nathon Detroit

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Some state that a Christian is incapable of sin. They say that when a Christian does something that would normally be considered sinful we would now refer to it as something else (say like a "stupid act"). This of course is a bit meaningless since all we would really be doing is changing the name from "sin" to "stupid act" effectively changing nothing.

Furthermore.... the notion that a Christian cannot sin, unnecessarily confuses the gospel message. There is NO pay-off to this argument. The unbeliever sees the actions of Christians who sin and can recognize that behavior is sinful and then wonders why a Christian argues that Christians cannot sin! They either conclude that Christians are hypocrites or that the sinning person is not a Christian, either way it defeats the purpose of telling the lost that we need not be perfect.... that was Jesus job. :)

The Christian can sin, but thankfully that sin has already been paid for by the blood of Christ which of course is the liberty that God has so graciously given us.

Most importantly.... God inspired the apostle Paul to affirm that a Christian can indeed sin. This of course is the death-nail to those that argue that a Christian cannot sin.

1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live. 7 However, there is not in everyone that knowledge; for some, with consciousness of the idol, until now eat it as a thing offered to an idol; and their conscience, being weak, is defiled. 8 But food does not commend us to God; for neither if we eat are we the better, nor if we do not eat are we the worse. 9 But beware lest somehow this liberty of yours become a stumbling block to those who are weak. 10 For if anyone sees you who have knowledge eating in an idol’s temple, will not the conscience of him who is weak be emboldened to eat those things offered to idols? 11 And because of your knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died? 12 But when you thus sin against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ.

Ephesians 4:25 Therefore, putting away lying, “Let each one of you speak truth with his neighbor,” for we are members of one another. 26 “Be angry, and do not sin”: do not let the sun go down on your wrath, 27 nor give place to the devil.

Romans 4:7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered; Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin.”

1Corinthians 6:17 But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him. 18 Flee sexual immorality. Every sin that a man does is outside the body, but he who commits sexual immorality sins against his own body.


In the end.... the Christian is capable of sin, but thankfully his sin is covered. That is the power of the gospel.
 

Nathon Detroit

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Note: This thread is located in the Exclusively Christian Theology forum.

If you have any off-topic responses please keep them to yourself or post them on another thread. Thank you. Refusal to cooperate with this request will result in your post(s) being deleted. Any additional offenses will result in TOL banishment.
 

Sozo

New member
Thanks Knight! I'll be back after dinner. I really appreciate your willingness to gently discuss this.
 

Nathon Detroit

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LIFETIME MEMBER
Sozo, I would love your thoughts on the following...

Question..... Is stealing a sin?
Answer.... Yes.
Question.... Can a Christian steal something? Is he physically able?
Answer.... Yes.
Question.... Therefore, can a Christian sin?
Answer... Yes.
Question... Is a Christian condemned for that sin?
Answer.... No. Jesus paid the price for that sin. The Christian is forever identified with the payment Jesus made on he cross.
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
This has everything to do with one's definition of the word 'sin'.

Anyone who would deny a Christian's ability to act in a manner that is not in his neighbors best interest would be nuts. If such were not possible, Paul's countless appeals for us not to do such things would not be needed. Thus, since everyone is in agreement that Christians can do things they shouldn't, the only question that remains is whether such actions can accurately be considered sinful.

In my view it is entirely fruitless to call such action anything other than sin even if doing so does not conform precisely to a Biblical definition of that word. Not that it doesn't do so, but I'm saying that whether it does or not, it is silly to use the term 'sin' in any other vernacular than that which one's audience is familiar unless steps are taken to clarify what is being said.

The bottom line is that everyone in the world understand the word 'sin' to refer to actions that one aught not do and I see no reason at all to insist that the word retain some other meaning unless one is specifically trying to teach a particular doctrine to a particular audience in which case the needed clarification will certainly be repeated many times. In any case, the bald assertion that "Christians do not sin!" is misleading at best and intentionally confusing at worst.

Resting in Him,
Clete
 

PKevman

New member
Christians do in fact sin:

Christians do in fact sin:

The book of 1 John is incredibly plain on this subject. Consider what John says in chapter 1 verses 5-10 of 1 John:

5 This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.


Then in verse #1 of chapter 2 he says:

1 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

The context:

A critical aspect of practicing good hermeneutics (which is the art of Biblical interpretation) is to know who the audience is that a particular text is addressed to. From there the interpreter needs to understand WHAT the overall message in the text is and how it was meant to be conveyed to the original audience. This need not be an incredibly laborious task. In fact, many times the books in the Bible are clearly addressed to a particular audience and with a particular purpose in mind.

In 1 John we do not have a direct audience mentioned from the Apostle John. But we know that John was considered by Paul to be a pillar of the early church. (See Galatians 2). According to history and the Biblical record, John ministered heavily in and around Ephesus, and in the Roman provinces of Asia.

It is very clear that John is writing the book of 1 John to a very familiar audience of believers. If you read the book you will find wonderful terms of endearment from John to the people he is writing to (such as "my little children" for example). The audience is a broad audience of BELIEVERS, so the context of this text is to be understood as being addressed to Christians. In fact John is addressing them as a Pastor. This is a heartfelt message from a Pastor to his people. In it he combats a lot of false teaching that was being perpetuated by the Gnostics.

Fellowship:

If the book of 1 John were to be summarized to one word it would be fellowship. Fellowship with God is the first and foremost driving desire on the heart of the Pastor to his people. He wants them walking in close fellowship with their Savior, Jesus Christ. He also speaks quite heavily on the subject of fellowship between believers in Jesus as well.

So, John understands that in order for them to walk in close fellowship with the Savior, he must deal with a very critical issue:

Sinning Christians!

The sad fact is that we are ALL sinners. We will continue to sin until the day we leave behind this sinful body and take on a new glorified body like that of our Lord Jesus Christ. John makes it clear that Christians should be living a victorious life over sin. Sin is never excused just because one is saved. The Apostle Paul confirms this for us in Romans 6. We must die to sin as Christians. This doesn't mean we won't sin, but rather we are not to be living a life that is characterized by sin. That is why John says:

6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.


The words in the Greek in this verse indicate living a life that is characterized by sinful living. It doesn't mean that we won't sin at all. That is why John makes it exceedingly clear through the inspiration of the Spirit of God in verses #8-10:

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us

The language here is so crystal clear that it is not to be mistaken.

So in summary:

Christians sin. In order to maintain a proper fellowship with God the Father, we must confess our sins. We do not cease to become His children if we sin, but a person who is truly a Christian will not live a life that is characterized by continued unconfessed sins.

God bless! (Good thread Knight!)
 

Sozo

New member
PastorKevin said:
Christians sin. In order to maintain a proper fellowship with God the Father, we must confess our sins. We do not cease to become His children if we sin, but a person who is truly a Christian will not live a life that is characterized by continued unconfessed sins.


Well, this went all to crap. Nevermind.

I guess everyone decided we all need "junk food". :vomit:
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
Hi :shut: from the fly on the wall. The cat has my tongue for this thread. Have fun (sound of munching popcorn).
 

CRASH

TOL Subscriber
Sozo sins, he just doesn't call it sin anymore.
When the Bible says we Christians are dead to sin, Sozo think that means we can't sin contary to all the Christians sinning all over the place! (Should we continue to sin? God Forbid!)
The whole teaching from the word is that our identity before God has changed and that the sin has been payed for or covered for us.
:cheers: to Sozo BTW - I love the guy!
 

Vaquero45

New member
Hall of Fame
I understand Sozo and agree with Knight here. I agree with Sozo that our sins (past present and future ) are forgiven, behind the back of God, never to be attributed to us when we are judged by "Paul's" Gospel. (Romans 2:16) In the eyes of God, we are righteous as Jesus is. But, we still do wrong things as we battle the flesh throughout our lives. Those "wrong things" walk and quack like "sin". I'm ok with calling them sin.

Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is reckoned for righteousness.
Rom 4:6 Even as David also pronounceth blessing upon the man, unto whom God reckoneth righteousness apart from works,
Rom 4:7 saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, And whose sins are covered.
Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom, the Lord will not reckon sin.​

The excerpt above shows our sins are covered, and not reckoned to us as believers.


Rom 6:10 For the death that he died, he died unto sin once: but the life that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Rom 6:11 Even so reckon ye also yourselves to be dead unto sin, but alive unto God in Christ Jesus.
Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey the lusts thereof:
Rom 6:13 neither present your members unto sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves unto God, as alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.​

We should "reckon" ourselves dead to sin, but also heed Paul's many exhortations not to "sin". Paul used the term addressing us, fully understanding the meaning.


1Co 8:9 But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to the weak.
1Co 8:10 For if a man see thee who hast knowledge sitting at meat in an idol's temple, will not his conscience, if he is weak, be emboldened to eat things sacrificed to idols?
1Co 8:11 For through thy knowledge he that is weak perisheth, the brother for whose sake Christ died.
1Co 8:12 And thus, sinning against the brethren, and wounding their conscience when it is weak, ye sin against Christ.
1Co 8:13 Wherefore, if meat causeth my brother to stumble, I will eat no flesh for evermore, that I cause not my brother to stumble.​

In 1co8:12 Paul explains that we can sin against our brethren, and effectively in that case we even sin against Christ. ( doing harm to our brethren who Christ loves and died for)

So, Sozo, I don't know of anything I disagree with you on on the topic of salvation, but I take the stance that using the term "sin" applied to The body is not wrong, although it needs to be well understood (again) that it is not "reckoned" / attributed to us for the case of righteousness in God's eyes, and salvation. ( and I believe that is the basis of your rejection of the term )

Hope you take that well Sozo, you are one of my favorite people on TOL. Had to finally throw my hat in the ring. :)
 

Evee

New member
I agree with all of the above posters Christians do sin.
I enjoy Sozo's posts, but I have to disagree with him here.
 

Nathon Detroit

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Sozo said:
Well, this went all to crap. Nevermind.

I guess everyone decided we all need "junk food". :vomit:
Come on Sozo, you haven't even responded to me yet. :(

Don't be so sensitive.

What happened to "I really appreciate your willingness to gently discuss this."?
 

Sozo

New member
Knight said:
Come on Sozo, you haven't even responded to me yet. :(

Don't be so sensitive.

What happened to "I really appreciate your willingness to gently discuss this."?

Okay. :sigh:

I just couldn't believe that in the hopes of coming to some conclusions, that someone, who is so respected on this site, could post something so unbelievably anti-Christ, especially since he is a "Pastor". It's very disheartening. :(


I think a consensus on a couple of things has got to be reached...

We need to first agree on what sin is.

And then we need to agree on what a Christian is.

At least, this way, when we say those words, people will know what we are talking about.
 

Memento Mori

New member
I have a question Knight:

If we can sin but the sin is already covered, where does 'repentance of sin' come into play?

Do we sin, then repent, then they are covered?

Do we even need to repent of our sins?

Or what's going on with that?
 

Nathon Detroit

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Memento Mori said:
I have a question Knight:

If we can sin but the sin is already covered, where does 'repentance of sin' come into play?

Do we sin, then repent, then they are covered?

Do we even need to repent of our sins?

Or what's going on with that?
That would be the case for those under the law. The dispensation we are under currently is entirely different. However, I don't want to get off track from the focus of this thread. :up:
 

Memento Mori

New member
Knight said:
That would be the case for those under the law. The dispensation we are under currently is entirely different. However, I don't want to get off track from the focus of this thread. :up:

Right, thanks.
 

Nathon Detroit

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Sozo said:
Okay. :sigh:

I just couldn't believe that in the hopes of coming to some conclusions, that someone, who is so respected on this site, could post something so unbelievably anti-Christ, especially since he is a "Pastor". It's very disheartening. :(
Sozo, that isn't a fair statement. We are all here to discuss the issue. If you don't agree with what the pastor is saying challenge him on it. Calling him "anti-Christ" is un-called for and lazy.


I think a consensus on a couple of things has got to be reached...

We need to first agree on what sin is.

And then we need to agree on what a Christian is.

At least, this way, when we say those words, people will know what we are talking about.
Sounds good.

You can tell me what you think sin is.
 
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