ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 3

Lon

Well-known member
No! An eternal non-beginning is not troubling to me. There are two views of eternity: "unlimited time", time with no beginning and no end, with a past and a future; and "timelessness" which is no time at all, no past and no future.

Eternal timelessness is troubling. Time does not constrain God because time is not a thing in itself for God or us. Once we define time properly, you will see why. I would like you to define it before I do.

--Dave

Dave, GodRulz, Delmar,Lighthouse,

Gentlemen:

Regardless of whether timelessness is troubling, it is the only way you can view God breaking out of an eternal past to create the world.
Whatever we call it 'timeless' 'skipping ahead' it must be acquiesced that duration isn't plausible for Him because an eternal past of succession would never allow God to reach 'now.'

God is the center of everything. You guys almost have a universe co-existing with Him in your concepts and considerations. This will not do, all we know and experience is from Him including our duration of time. There is no way that God can be constrained by anything because it ALL proceeds from Him. He must not be seen as subject to duration and sequence because it necessarily must proceed from Him as originator of all that is.

It is impossible to view God as constrained to a time-line no matter who said it.
 

Nang

TOL Subscriber
Dave, GodRulz, Delmar,Lighthouse,

Gentlemen:

Regardless of whether timelessness is troubling, it is the only way you can view God breaking out of an eternal past to create the world.
Whatever we call it 'timeless' 'skipping ahead' it must be acquiesced that duration isn't plausible for Him because an eternal past of succession would never allow God to reach 'now.'

God is the center of everything. You guys almost have a universe co-existing with Him in your concepts and considerations. This will not do, all we know and experience is from Him including our duration of time. There is no way that God can be constrained by anything because it ALL proceeds from Him. He must not be seen as subject to duration and sequence because it necessarily must proceed from Him as originator of all that is.

It is impossible to view God as constrained to a time-line no matter who said it.


Amen.

(Underlined emphasis, Nang's!)
 

Lon

Well-known member
100 is average, from what I understand. And while I do not know mine exactly it is closer to yours than it is to average.

As you rightly say, it isn't that much of a thing to be overtly concerned about. Forgive me for the overemphasis, I just wanted you to stop and think about your name-calling. It seems to have no effect so I'll drop it.

Seeing as how I'm a very talented artist and poet I'm fairly certain you're way off about how I think.
I've no doubts here and would like to see some. You can see some of mine over here (ignore the photos, maps, and charts, those aren't my work).
And 2+2=4 is not complicated. So not everything is. Time is not complicated, either.
This is absolutely not true. If you can explain to me how a past goes on forever 'without stopping' in durative terms, I'll acquiesce and relent.

Do what? My comment had nothing to do with foreknowledge. It was about present knowledge. I was right, you are an idiot.

Hmmm, the idiot comment again.....

I was overambitious, the proof was that with God having perfect foreknowledge, He'd also consequently have perfect present knowledge.
It was a two birds with one stone kinda thing.

Yes, God knows me that well. So what?

You're problem is that you are trying to solve basic math using Calculus.

"God never had a beginning." Sounds pretty simple to me.
Really? Explain it to me? As we look at our past, it is finite. We can think of the time we were born. We can think of a time God created everything.
I personally have a hard time with a past that has no reference point.
If you could explain that, you'd be my hero (this can be rhetorical if you wish).

You're definitely off on that. This was not a physical human trait. So it does not qualify as a anthropomorphism. And even if it is an anthropopathism, just saying that it is does not explain why He said it. It does not answer the question I asked.
Not sure what your criteria is for negotiating the two. What is your criteria for it?
you just got done telling me it's more complicated than I know, and then you go and try to simplify to the fullest extent possible. And it just seems to me that you're trying to dumb it down so that you can try to understand it.
"Time." We were talking about time. This isn't the same topic.
This is another problem with the "high IQ" crowd. Not only do they think everything is too complicated for the average person to understand it, they think a great many things are too complicated for even them to understand, so they never try.

You suffer from the same problem as someone who was always told they were stupid growing up.


You can't prove that it is impossible, can you?

And you're not trying very hard to explain this to me either.

P.S.
I used to believe the same thing you do, regarding this.
I've addressed this concern again in the post above. If you explain the simple answers to these questions and those above in a way that takes care of all of my questions and concerns, I'll acquiesce that time consideration is as simple as you assert.
 

WandererInFog

New member
Yes, Augustines Confessions is the best book on how this synthesis of Greek philosophy with Biblical revelation takes place. Islamic and Jewish scholars did it before him.

Well, as Islam didn't originate until nearly two centuries after Augustine that's more than a bit of an anachronism.

But in regards to Judaism, both timelessness and exhaustive foreknowledge represented the normative belief within Judaism at the time of Christ and are well attested to in the centuries prior to his birth. In fact, so far as I am aware, there was no sect within second temple Judaism that believed otherwise. This then forces one to ask, if either of these beliefs was the grievous error that Open Theists contend, then why did neither Jesus himself nor any of his Apostles ever seek to correct them?

That isn't to say that a belief in an eternal duration of time is original to Open Theism. It has a long history as well. It just that it's one which, until the rise of Open theism, was confined to Pagan religions as well as some eastern religions such as Hinduism and the Vedic religion which preceded it.
 

bybee

New member
may I ask?

may I ask?

No offense bybee, but since you believe God is a woman, it is a little hard to take you serious, but I will answer your question anyway.

First off, I believe salvation is by faith and faith alone. Dave, according to his website, lists faith and four additional conditions for salvation.

Dave also believes in all the other open theism doctrines such as “God regretted creating man because he did not know what man was going to do with the freedom he had given him”, “God did not know what man would do”, and “God knew that man could sin but not that he would sin.", etc, etc.

BTW, you are the first person I ever met who is an open theist and believes God is a woman :dizzy:

May I ask if you are a female?

Dear boy, you may ask any number of things. Yes, I am a member of the female race. To reference God as female is an attempt to unlimit the narrow way in which we define God. God is more than I can comprehend because I am a finite being with limited capacities. I think of God as Father and address him as Father but it occurred to me that He must also be Mother. We each walk our own pathway to God. It is a pathway which He has prepared for us. Our pathways cross and we either bless one another, curse one another or like the people in the "Ship of Fools" pass each other in the night and do nothing. I like to keep it simple Love God(which I do) and love my neighbor(sometimes a struggle) and keep a grip on my lip. bybee
 

chrysostom

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
Dear boy, you may ask any number of things. Yes, I am a member of the female race. To reference God as female is an attempt to unlimit the narrow way in which we define God. God is more than I can comprehend because I am a finite being with limited capacities. I think of God as Father and address him as Father but it occurred to me that He must also be Mother. We each walk our own pathway to God. It is a pathway which He has prepared for us. Our pathways cross and we either bless one another, curse one another or like the people in the "Ship of Fools" pass each other in the night and do nothing. I like to keep it simple Love God(which I do) and love my neighbor(sometimes a struggle) and keep a grip on my lip. bybee

Are you aware that some consider the Holy Spirit to be the female person of God?
 

bybee

New member
evaluate....

evaluate....

If you are an open-theist, "generally," how do you evaluate Dave's
theodicy to be accurate and true according to the Word of God?

Curious,
Nang

I have not evaluated his "theodicy" because I'm not sure I am grasping his meaning or belief, based on his statements. As you know, "theodicy" is a term meant to describe a defense of God's goodness and omnipotence in the face of the existence of evil. I would not joust with another person over his beliefs on this issue. There are many avenues of approach to truth. I don't think God needs my defense on any issue. But I need to keep in touch with God through prayer and fellowship, then, If I stay humble and open, I actually learn something! He is pursuing his truth and I commend him for that. Peace, bybee
 

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
And then there is always James 2:14-26. bybee

I'm saved by the faith of Jesus Christ. His faith was not dead.
Galatians 2:16 (KJV)

I'm not living in the tribulation when Israel's faith will be tried by fire.
That is who James is addressing.
 

bybee

New member
faith...

faith...

I'm saved by the faith of Jesus Christ. His faith was not dead.
Galatians 2:16 (KJV)

I'm not living in the tribulation when Israel's faith will be tried by fire.
That is who James is addressing.

Yes, faith saves. I think James is adressing those with ears to hear and eyes to see. peace bybee
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
A question for OVers individually: do you think we need the guiding of the Holy Spirit to understand Scripture?

Most Christians agree that we need the illumination of the Holy Spirit. There are atheists who can read God's communication and understand the message since it is given in a grammatical-historical-literal fashion. If it was allegorical with a subjective, spiritual meaning under the surface, we would not be able to read and understand it.

Considering we all claim to rely on the Spirit for understanding, it is interesting that equally capable, godly believers (TM) come to such divergent views on theology (Calvinism, Arminianism, Open Theism, baptism views, eschatology, spiritual gifts, ecclesiology, etc.). This shows that we cannot underestimate the noetic effects of sin that can cloud our understanding, bias, exegetical fallacies, lack of hermeneutical discipline or study, etc.
 

Delmar

Patron Saint of SMACK
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Dave, GodRulz, Delmar,Lighthouse,

Gentlemen:

Regardless of whether timelessness is troubling, it is the only way you can view God breaking out of an eternal past to create the world.
Whatever we call it 'timeless' 'skipping ahead' it must be acquiesced that duration isn't plausible for Him because an eternal past of succession would never allow God to reach 'now.'

God is the center of everything. You guys almost have a universe co-existing with Him in your concepts and considerations. This will not do, all we know and experience is from Him including our duration of time. There is no way that God can be constrained by anything because it ALL proceeds from Him. He must not be seen as subject to duration and sequence because it necessarily must proceed from Him as originator of all that is.

It is impossible to view God as constrained to a time-line no matter who said it.
That is a math gimmick. If I shoot an arrow at a target it passes through an infinite amount of points, but it still reaches the target!
 

DFT_Dave

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
"When we think of God and what it means to be “infinite”, we mean that God is “unlimited” in all aspects of his being, he is also eternal and uncreated, free and uncoersed. There is nothing behind, before, nor other than God that is responsible for his existence or that forces him to do what ever he does.

We have been taught that God is omnipotent—all powerful, omnipresent—everywhere present, and omniscient—all knowing. But, we haven’t been taught that these aspects of God’s being must be understood in terms of God’s freedom. A God who does everything all at once is no more free than a God who does nothing at all. If God is not free then he is a machine and so are we.

God did not have to create the world, it does not complete him nor define his existence. Even though God is unlimited in whatever he can do, he does not have to do everything all at once. Even though God is unlimited in where he can be, he does not have to be everywhere all at once. And even though God knows everything he is capable of doing, he does not have to know all that he will do, or will not do, in his infinite future. God could have created a world in which he had ordain and knew every future event in it; instead, he created a world in which he has not ordained and does not know every future event."

--Dave
 

tetelestai

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
"When we think of God and what it means to be “infinite”, we mean that God is “unlimited” in all aspects of his being, he is also eternal and uncreated, free and uncoersed. There is nothing behind, before, nor other than God that is responsible for his existence or that forces him to do what ever he does.

We have been taught that God is omnipotent—all powerful, omnipresent—everywhere present, and omniscient—all knowing. But, we haven’t been taught that these aspects of God’s being must be understood in terms of God’s freedom. A God who does everything all at once is no more free than a God who does nothing at all. If God is not free then he is a machine and so are we.

God did not have to create the world, it does not complete him nor define his existence. Even though God is unlimited in whatever he can do, he does not have to do everything all at once. Even though God is unlimited in where he can be, he does not have to be everywhere all at once. And even though God knows everything he is capable of doing, he does not have to know all that he will do, or will not do, in his infinite future. God could have created a world in which he had ordain and knew every future event in it; instead, he created a world in which he has not ordained and does not know every future event."

--Dave

For the third time, I will ask you the same question that you keep dodging:

After salvation, does a believer have eternal life, or everlasting life?
 
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