ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 2

[RobE]

God doesn't fail us. We fail God. If sin isn't frustrating the will of God then what is it?

It's part of the plan to bring God's own sons into existence. In other words, it is the will of God for man to make free decisions. That freedom, as openists proclaim, result in both good and bad actions.

Foreknowing that some would reject Him, God decided(or willed if you prefer) to create for the benefit of those who would not reject Him. God desires ALL to be saved, but alas, God foreknew that not all would be saved(Lee's remnant).

God's actions are loving because He doesn't know the outcomes.

No. Lovingness requires God to know that His own actions will result in good. If you believe that evil being created from good intent is not evil, then there is a deficiency in your definition of evil.

They are self-giving without guarantee.

This I vehemently disagree with. God's actions are self-sacrificing with guarantee. That gaurantee is perfect as it is based upon His own nature and attributes.

They are loving precisely because there is risk involved -- risk of rejection to the end that sin pays a wage and the wage is death, not something that God hopes for anyone.

This kind of unknowing, risky 'love' is equivalent to throwing a child into a lake who is unable to swim; and then, watching the child swim or drown.

On the other hand, the Lord I know is knowledgeable enough to know when and if the child is ready to swim. He doesn't give the child more of a challenge than the child is able to overcome. This, Philetus, is another guarantee based on foreknowing the outcomes through perfect, future knowledge.

Absolute foreknowledge precludes any real forgiveness and forgiveness is a selfless/self-giving act of God that is made possible because God limits his knowledge of the future actions of men.

Prove this.

Romans 8:18 I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. 20For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
22We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has? 25But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.

26In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express. 27And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God's will.​

 

[RobE]

So God is mistaken if he doesn't know how a Flex Capacitor works, even though it doesn't actually exist?

Yet, could God know how a flux capacitor works if He so desired? Wouldn't it simply require desiring to create one?

Did the Wright Brothers know how airflight worked before they built the first airplane?

Things which don't exist are commonly known such as doing otherwise. When is the last time you did otherwise.

Say we were to put our palms up through a choice. Placing our palms down was a real, valid, and possible outcome; yet it never existed because we placed our palms up. Did we know about placing our palms down? If so, then why is it impossible to know of things which don't exist?

 

[RobE]

You used the word "might" above. By using the word "might," you imply that God COULD still be able to accomplish his will (even in spite of those conditions), you just don't think it is likely.

Before things get crazy, let's remember which of us thinks something is impossible for God.

The word 'might' was speaking to open theism. When we consider the shear volume of free actions with unknown outcomes; all moving towards an unknown end; then things become pretty convoluted and unlikely.

Let's say(within the open theist's universe) God wanted a specific man to become a Christian. He might choose to intervene in the situation and ask the man to become a Christian. He might send Michael J. Fox into the past using the newly created flux capacitor. He might have a big fish swallow the individual until the individual decided to follow Jesus. He might just sit back or hope for the best.

In all of these cases though, God would not know what His own actions would produce. His desired outcome/purpose would not necessarily be fulfilled. As Philetus would say, God doesn't give guarantees within open theism because it would be unloving.

Now, according to Traditional Christianity, if God wanted a specific individual to become a Christian; God would carry this out through an action which guaranteed the desired result.

Acts 22: 6 "About noon as I came near Damascus, suddenly a bright light from heaven flashed around me. 7I fell to the ground and heard a voice say to me, 'Saul! Saul! Why do you persecute me?'​

What guarantees the desired result --- is knowing the outcome beforehand.

What weakness do you see in God that causes him to be crippled if he is without absolute future knowledge?

God is perfect. He has no weaknesses. Perfection, fortunately, contains the attribute of never being mistaken. Are mistakes symptoms of flaws in thinking or action?

 

[RobE]

Luckily Micheal Jordan knew the future -- else he might not be able to win a one-on-one matchup against his eight year old. :think:

Apparently the typical view of God's power isn't that great, that people think God could lose if He shouldn't have future knowledge. Reactionary statements against Open Theism promote this lack of faith in God.

"I'll only have faith in God if .... " say too many Calvinists.

If it were only this simple. See in the open view the eight year old might be able to win the matchup. See, Jordan might have a stroke, or decide to let the kid win; or, since it is statistically possible, the kid might just beat Jordan straight out.

In open theism, 'knowing' is impossible --- believing, guessing, hoping, etc...; are the best possible outcomes. Clete might include believing, speculating, and the rest in his 'shades of knowledge' theory; but stating 'best guesses' are indeed 'knowledge' is in error.

Even Satan doesn't think God's purposes or desires can be overcome. Lucifer asks permission before acting. Why is that?

 

[patman]

Before things get crazy, let's remember which of us thinks something is impossible for God.

The word 'might' was speaking to open theism. When we consider the shear volume of free actions with unknown outcomes; all moving towards an unknown end; then things become pretty convoluted and unlikely.

Let's say(within the open theist's universe) God wanted a specific man to become a Christian. He might choose to intervene in the situation and ask the man to become a Christian. He might send Michael J. Fox into the past using the newly created flux capacitor. He might have a big fish swallow the individual until the individual decided to follow Jesus. He might just sit back or hope for the best.

In all of these cases though, God would not know what His own actions would produce. His desired outcome/purpose would not necessarily be fulfilled. As Philetus would say, God doesn't give guarantees within open theism because it would be unloving.

Now, according to Traditional Christianity, if God wanted a specific individual to become a Christian; God would carry this out through an action which guaranteed the desired result.

Acts 22: 6 "About noon as I came near Damascus, suddenly a bright light from heaven flashed around me. 7I fell to the ground and heard a voice say to me, 'Saul! Saul! Why do you persecute me?'​

What guarantees the desired result --- is knowing the outcome beforehand.



God is perfect. He has no weaknesses. Perfection, fortunately, contains the attribute of never being mistaken. Are mistakes symptoms of flaws in thinking or action?

Crazy?

Open Theists say God COULD know the future if he wanted to. Impossible? Who said impossible? Did I?

How long have you been participating in this thread? You should know better.

You are the one who thinks God is to weak to accomplish anything without future knowledge, Rob.

In your universe, Everything happens the way God wanted it to, except God wants every other person to go to hell so he can give his buddies an ego boost.

 

[ApologeticJedi]

the kid might just beat Jordan straight out.

Please feel free to join us in reality. :kookoo:

Jordan could have a stroke I suppose, but that's because the difference in power possessed by Jordan and that possessed by God is not lost. Jordan is a man and the difference between him and an 8 year old is not even close to the difference between man and God. It is only magnified between God's power and man's.

If God sets out to beat someone, who is there that can stop God?

You are arguing that God CAN be stopped if he doesn't know the future, and that only serves to validate my point that you lack faith in God. Basically what you are saying from your own words is that your view boils down to --- you think that if the playing field of knowing the future isn't settled, God isn't powerful enough to win.

That's sad RobE.

Even Satan doesn't think God's purposes or desires can be overcome. Lucifer asks permission before acting. Why is that?

It is, because God's hand was preventing him. God's hand was too powerful for Lucifer. So he understood God's power. This is what Lucifer himself objects to. This doesn't disagree with the Open View. You are the one dismissing God's power and saying He can't win unless he knows the future. I am the one saying His power makes him utterly unstoppable -- able to win no matter what the playing field is.

What we have to wonder is what was Lucifer thinking when he got into a bet with God about the future? Didn't Satan know that God knew the eventually outcome?

Unless I'm missing something, I see only problems for the Calvinist side on this story .

 

[Philetus]

It's part of the plan to bring God's own sons into existence. In other words, it is the will of God for man to make free decisions. That freedom, as openists proclaim, result in both good and bad actions.

Foreknowing that some would reject Him, God decided(or willed if you prefer) to create for the benefit of those who would not reject Him. God desires ALL to be saved, but alas, God foreknew that not all would be saved(Lee's remnant).



No. Lovingness requires God to know that His own actions will result in good. If you believe that evil being created from good intent is not evil, then there is a deficiency in your definition of evil.



This I vehemently disagree with. God's actions are self-sacrificing with guarantee. That gaurantee is perfect as it is based upon His own nature and attributes.



This kind of unknowing, risky 'love' is equivalent to throwing a child into a lake who is unable to swim; and then, watching the child swim or drown.

On the other hand, the Lord I know is knowledgeable enough to know when and if the child is ready to swim. He doesn't give the child more of a challenge than the child is able to overcome. This, Philetus, is another guarantee based on foreknowing the outcomes through perfect, future knowledge.

:vomit: :vomit:

Prove this.

Romans 8:18 I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. 20For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
22We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has? 25But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.

26In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express. 27And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God's will.​

Prove this?

SEE RED! That was easy.

Any more passages of scripture you want me to prove? See Signature line.
:sigh:

Philetus

 

[Philetus]

God's actions ALWAYS result in Good. But, God doesn't always get what he wants. He wants all Calvinists to repent. (well, everybody else too.) They don't.

And for Lee: Only God can save ... Jesus saves!

P

 

[themuzicman]

(but Brett Hull grabs the rebound.. and SCORES!)

 

[Philetus]

Please feel free to join us in reality. :kookoo:

Jordan could have a stroke I suppose, but that's because the difference in power possessed by Jordan and that possessed by God is not lost. Jordan is a man and the difference between him and an 8 year old is not even close to the difference between man and God. It is only magnified between God's power and man's.

If God sets out to beat someone, who is there that can stop God?

You are arguing that God CAN be stopped if he doesn't know the future, and that only serves to validate my point that you lack faith in God. Basically what you are saying from your own words is that your view boils down to --- you think that if the playing field of knowing the future isn't settled, God isn't powerful enough to win.

That's sad RobE.






It is, because God's hand was preventing him. God's hand was too powerful for Lucifer. So he understood God's power. This is what Lucifer himself objects to. This doesn't disagree with the Open View. You are the one dismissing God's power and saying He can't win unless he knows the future. I am the one saying His power makes him utterly unstoppable -- able to win no matter what the playing field is.

What we have to wonder is what was Lucifer thinking when he got into a bet with God about the future? Didn't Satan know that God knew the eventually outcome?

Unless I'm missing something, I see only problems for the Calvinist side on this story .

:first: :second: & :third:

That is an awesome Post, Nic! You get to take RobE home with you for a week, and he should be eager to go.



Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord God Almighty.
All His works (actions) are Holy!

Wow
Philetus

 

[Philetus]

(but Brett Hull grabs the rebound.. and SCORES!)

I hate hockey.

 

[lee_merrill]

No. You are still proceeding from a false assumption. You claim God laid everything out based on knowing the future, and if he doesn't know the entire future, he won't know the best choice.

How does God know the best choice, if free agent may choose in various ways? And you skipped my Blogit story!

That is my point. We can think, a machine can not. God knows us better than we know ourselves.

But I'm talking about before Jeremiah was born, about 70 years or more before there was a Cyrus who made a decree God said he would make.

Blessings,
Lee

 

[lee_merrill]

What was your point in this Lee? That God could pick a good choice that turned out later to be sinful?

No, I'm saying that in order for there to be free choices in heaven, there has to be more than one alternative for a given choice, there have to be several non-sinful alternatives.

If you mean that God could come to regret His good choices -- then certainly Saul would be a good example of that. But to argue that God is unable to overcome these setbacks would be foolish.

So there was no real loss in Saul's misconduct? He lost his soul, and misled many others--God wasn't regretful about such matters?

Ask a 8 month pregnant mother if babies in the womb have personalities. My wife would say they do. These days they encourage you to talk to your child and that almost always they will respond to the parent's voice.

So no free choice in becoming a prophet for Jerry? It's all fixed before birth?

... how hard was it for God to convince one of the men with a common royal name to start the rebuilding effort?

But he knows this will happen, how can this be known? Sure, you or I could estimate that this may well happen, and work to bring it about, but it's not therefore a sure outcome, as long as Cyrus has a real choice.

Blessings,
Lee

 

[RobE]

See following post.

 

[RobE]

Crazy?

Open Theists say God COULD know the future if he wanted to. Impossible? Who said impossible? Did I?

Well, is free will compatible with foreknowledge in your opinion?

 

[RobE]

Please feel free to join us in reality. :kookoo:

Jordan could have a stroke I suppose, but that's because the difference in power possessed by Jordan and that possessed by God is not lost. Jordan is a man and the difference between him and an 8 year old is not even close to the difference between man and God. It is only magnified between God's power and man's.

It was your analogy which compared God to a man, not mine. I simply responded.

However, if Michael Jordan is able to know the outcome of His basketball game beforehand, then we agree God would too!

If God sets out to beat someone, who is there that can stop God?

Well, according to open theism: Nineveh, King Saul, bad grapes, and Tyre; just to name a few. I've seen these examples of humans overcoming God's purposes.

You are arguing that God CAN be stopped if he doesn't know the future, and that only serves to validate my point that you lack faith in God.

I'm saying God knows the future, naturally. God knows because He is perfect and His plans never fail including those for Nineveh, King Saul, bad grapes, Tyre, and even roosters and apostles.

Basically what you are saying from your own words is that your view boils down to --- you think that if the playing field of knowing the future isn't settled, God isn't powerful enough to win.

Perhaps you have mis-heard. The future isn't settled because it doesn't exist yet. God's knowledge of the future is completely settled because He, unlike Jordan, is perfect.

I am the one saying His power makes him utterly unstoppable -- able to win no matter what the playing field is.

Are you saying it's unfair for God to be smarter than you. In other words, do you think it's wrong to assume that God knows more about your future actions than you do?

What we have to wonder is what was Lucifer thinking when he got into a bet with God about the future? Didn't Satan know that God knew the eventually outcome?

Sure. Satan understood it completely. Unlike some, Satan has a firm understanding that ALL of creation is within God's domain, providence, and control.
I don't have a complete understanding of Divine Government, so I'm not sure why this occurred.

What bet?

Rob

p.s. Satan acts within his nature just as we do. It's natural for Satan to want to destroy the righteous such as Job despite what God knows. It was new to Satan either way. You see a similar situation with Judas.....

John 13:28 "What you are about to do, do quickly," Jesus told him, but no one at the meal understood why Jesus said this to him.​

Did Judas know what future event Christ was talking about? Did Judas do it freely?

 

[lee_merrill]

Well, it isn't God who is hoping here, is it?

Why do Open Theists repeat the same erroneous answers? and then say "your question has been answered many times."

 

[patman]

Well, is free will compatible with foreknowledge in your opinion?

As long as you are not the creator of everything that happens (i.e. time)

According to S.V., God created time...

 

[RobE]

Absolute foreknowledge precludes any real forgiveness and forgiveness is a selfless/self-giving act of God that is made possible because God limits his knowledge of the future actions of men.

Prove this.

SEE RED! That was easy.

Well, it isn't God who is hoping here, is it? And how's that prove that "absolute foreknowledge precludes any real forgiveness...."?

Romans 8:18 I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. 20For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
22We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has? 25But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.

26In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express. 27And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God's will.​

 

[RobE]

Well, is free will compatible with foreknowledge in your opinion?

As long as you are not the creator of everything that happens (i.e. time)

According to S.V., God created time...

I can affirm I am not the creator of everything, so that's settled for sure! :chuckle:

Seriously, if it's possible to foreknow free acts then who can do it?