ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 2

[Lon]

The Giants are giving the Patriots a run for their money tonight--this outcome seems not so certain.

4TH QTR: PATRIOTS 38, GIANTS 35 1 minute to go, Giants in possession... Was close and good game.

How smart is God again (just for comparison). Can He safely predict now? Boy am I glad He waited to be sure! Yep, God's play by play of the minute and close calls are still 100%. I do not mean to extrapolate to the ridiculous but honestly, which seems more logical and appropriate? Will He pull off the 7 vials? Will there be any hitches? What makes you think God doesn't care about the outcome of the game? Why doesn't this particular exist as one of "all things work together for good for those who love God, who are called according to his purpose?"Rom 8:28

 

[Yorzhik]

I'll answer the kitchen table scenario stuff first, and then another post for the rest of Lon's post.

The omnicompetent God is smart enough to realize the situation is logically absurd. Therefore He couldn't do it any more than He could make a rock so big He couldn't lift it.

Or could He?

What?!?!? AMR! Lee_merrill! HELP! HELP! Lon is questioning if God could do the logically absurd! Lon has too much pride to listen to me. Maybe Lon will listen to you. AMR! Lee_merrill! HELP!

And of course you realize Lon, that if God cannot do the logically absurd, this is still an unanswered question for you. The OV God deals with the scenario by smiling. The Settled View God either does the logically absurd or ceases to be. Do I have to spell out why these are your only 2 choices?

So what happened to a God that knows the future exhaustively? Are humans not capable of determining to will their palms the opposite of whatever God says?

No.

If humans cannot will to turn their palms one way or another... they cannot will anything.

Lon continues:

The answer is simple: It is because 'you' desire to have them the way God said.

Why is it required that I will to have them the way God said? It is neither outside my ability or sinful to turn my palms whichever way I please. Isn't that correct?

Lon continues:

Notice with me please, most OV examples point specifically to disobeying God.

No. Where did that come from? How is it a sin to turn your palms one way or another? If God were to command me to turn my palms a certain way, then I would be in a position to disobey or not. But, as the scenario goes, God is only stating how your palms will be, not commanding how your palms must be.

EVEN SO! If God were to make how one's palms were turned a command as well as a prediction, would that make a difference? Let us say the person turning their palms is a non-believer and they desire to disobey God (there's a redundancy for you). If God, using His decretive will predicted how they would have their palms, commanded them that they should have their palms turned a certain way, could they disobey?

Lon continues:

This is troublesome for your LFW discussion. We need to talk about why LFW is not independence (sin) if it has any value at all.

I don't understand what you are saying here, even in the context of what you just said. Please restate. You seem to be saying that having a will is sinful?

The situation with Peter is similar, but there are a number of factors that make it impossible to tell what Peter's will was at the time of denial. What we will to do can change from moment to moment. Removing those factors, we can test the existence of will. You'd rather not remove the extenuating factors because then your pride would be hurt. As a brother in Christ, please pray that God would help you overcome your pride.

If it were impossible, Christ could not have predicted it. How is it that God can make such predictions and NEVER be wrong?

You got me. Right, if God cannot do the logically absurd then God cannot do what is impossible. Welcome back to the world of the sane. To clarify: I meant "impossible" in the sense of Luke 1:37.

Now, to your quote. God is never wrong in the sense of "right and wrong" (righteousness), but He can be wrong if expects something, and gets something else (accuracy).

You are looking in the wrong place. What God says can affect how you will put your palms. Therefore, what God says cannot accurately predict how you will put your palms... which, if that same God knows the future exhaustively, is a logical contradiction.

Why? You are trying to say it must eliminate your will, but I say it validates what your greatest inclination and desire was.

Why? I'll tell you why - because of the definition of a logical contradiction. It fits the definition.

And if your greatest inclination and desire was to have your palms some other way than what God said, it is neither a sin, nor is it outside of your ability.

Lon continues:

Again, we need to talk about LFW as it relates to sin. Our Christ-given will is to follow the will of the Father implicitly. We in effect, are trying to eliminate LFW from our lives as we follow Christ.

Fine. Use a non-believer in the scenario if you must. They come with a built-in desire to disobey God. But that doesn't matter to the test of will. However if it is easier for you to understand by using a non-believer, then fine.

I've addressed this above. God knows your desire/inclination. It will be exactly as 'you' desire.

And my desire is to do other than what God predicts. How does God say my palms will be?

No, God doesn't have to remove your inclinations to know what you will do.

Thus, you admit that I could be inclined to do other than what God predicts.

Lon continues:

We are discussing the mechanism for God's knowledge. God knows what He has decreed. We draw our every breath from the One who sustains us and holds us together.

But His decree doesn't mean anything next to the power of my will/desire/inclination! If I will/desire/incline to have my palms other that what God says about my palms, then His decree will be wrong. SO, what in this discussion of the mechanism for God's knowledge, what you REALLY need to do is tell us the mechanism of God's DECREES!

Your definition of it differs from mine. Your conception has even unconditional prophecies as predictive well-guessed outcomes at times.

God would not hazard a guess even with Peter. You would have to show one place where God was ever wrong to prove your point that God predicts without EDF. God has never been wrong or mistaken. His track record is perfect, therefore even in OV, God has a virtual EDF by your own proofs. What we are arguing about is the mechanism for this knowledge.

God said Hezekiah would die in 15 days. He was wrong.

And then there is Adam and Eve, whether they would go into the garden, and mankind at the flood, and King Saul, and Nineveh...

What "therefore even in OV, God has a virtual EDF by your own proofs." Are you talking about?

Or are you confusing "inaccurate" with "unrighteous" again?

 

[Yorzhik]

God doesn't break a promise to keep a promise.

I just said He did. Let's go to God's word to arbitrate who's right:

Lon continues:

God rather, gives parameters for His promise to effect.

Whoa. . . do you know what parameters are? They are promises about the possible (contradictory) paths a promise might take. You're shooting yourself in the foot already. But, still, let's go to God's word because I promised we would:

Jer 18:7 The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, 8 if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. 9 And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, 10 if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.

There you have it, Jer 18:7-9 is nothing but one big promise! And within that promise, God speaks of His promises.

Let's roll the tape and see what's inside that promise:
"The instant I speak concerning a nation… to pluck it up" <--- LOOK, it's a promise within that promise!
"if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil" <--- LOOK, it's a parameter! (notice the word "if")
"I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it." <--- LOOK, it's another promise promising to break the promise immediately prior! (depending on the parameter, immdiately prior).

So, according to the bible, Lon, God promises to break a promise depending on the parameters.

Lon continuese:

He doesn't change His mind.

Um... you just said, and I just laboriously pointed out how you were right, that God does change His mind (remember when you said "depending on the parameters"?). And here you say in the next sentence that God doesn't change His mind. Do you even read what you are typing?

Lon continues:

The condition is the way we act according to His revelation. The only thing changing is man, not God's statements. They account for change because God is gracious.

What? This is shockingly accurate. God's statement doesn't change that He promises to change. I'm not getting your meaning here since you said one sentence prior that God doesn't change.

We are specifically talking about conditional prophecy/promise here. With unconditional prophecies or statements there is no possible condition change and God always does as He says.

Well then we can keep our conversation to conditional prophecy.

Lon continues:

If no condition is set, the thing will come about with no room for change.

Unless the condition is implied, right? Like at Nineveh. Or with King Hezekiah.

No, but you could be wrong. You also couldn't have been sure last year, now there are many games behind them. They could still lose. We don't have near the ability God has.

From now on, when you say "if God made a prophecy that didn't come to pass it would make God a liar" you are summarily condemned, by your own statement here, and ultimately by God for falsely accusing Him of lying. Watch your pride, Lon, it is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

 

[Yorzhik]

They were presented in two forms:
1. Will you have your palms the way God says?
Decretive Will --- Yes.

Why? What would stop me from turning my palms the other way?

RobE continues:

2. Could you put your palms the other way if you so chose?
Decretive will --- No.

What? My palms would not be the way I chose to put them if the decretive will says they should be the other way?

I assume you speak of the first type of decrees in your illustration. I simply provided answers for both types of decrees.

Oh. Forget the permissive will in the context of this discussion.

Sure God knows His decretive will. Sometimes His decree(decretive will) is to allow us to act naturally which means we must describe this type of decree differently so the two might not be confused. The two I speak of are 1. Times when God brings things about through His own power and 2. Times when God allows others to bring things about through the power He has portioned to them.

How many events take place outside of God's decreetive will?

 

[Yorzhik]

So when God says He promises to change his mind under certain conditions, wouldn't you expect that God would not change His mind if those conditions are not met?

Certainly he would respond differently,

Differently than what? Differently than what He was going to do if the other condition took place?

So he does speak and then not act, he does promise, and not fulfill?

If the conditions are right, He will speak and not act, He will promise and then not fulfill - as He promised. You still haven't dealt with Jer 18.

lee_merrill continues:

But I have dealt with the Open View verses, here is a summary.

As you say: "Now certainly if peoples' actions change, then God's response may indeed change"

Change from what?

I'm certain the Pats are going to be undefeated this season...

So how about now? Am I lying?

If you tell me "this event is certain" then that is indeed lying or self-deception, because this event is not certain.

I said it was certain... was I lying?

Are humans not capable of determining to will their palms the opposite of whatever God says?

No, they are not.

If humans don't have the will to put their palms the way they want, then they don't have will to do anything.

But what I read here does not explain how Peter did just what God said he would, when he was trying his best not to do it.

Because people are complex. We have conflicting desires. You prefer to continue to discuss Peter because it's hard to see exactly what he was thinking at the time. You need this complexity to uphold your Settled View, because looking at the situation clearly would hurt your pride.

What God says can affect how you will put your palms. Therefore, what God says cannot accurately predict how you will put your palms... which, if that same God knows the future exhaustively, is a logical contradiction.

Within Open Theism, yes, there is a contradiction, if the future is unknowable.

No. There is only a contradiction if the future is knowable. You didn't think this through.

lee_merrill continues:

But if God can know the effect of what he says, then he can know what you will do.

Then He will have to say the opposite of what He says at the same time as He knows the effect will cause the opposite reaction. It doesn't matter if God will know the effect of what He says... it's still a logical contradiction only if the future is knowable.

lee_merrill continues:

Isaiah 55:11 So is my word that goes out from my mouth: it will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.

Jer. 18:7-9 The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, 8 if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. 9 And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, 10 if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.

However, the Open View entails another contradiction in regard to knowledge of Peter's decision, how a free decision can be known, so that Jesus says "truly, truly"--and a view which multiplies such contradictions should be moved down on the list of views to consider.

You don't know what a logical contraction is. Making a prediction cannot be a contradiction even if it doesn't come to pass.

Lee: God cannot make true be false, or false be true.

Yorzhik: So now you have a choice; Either man does not have will, or God does not know the future exhaustively. If you have to get rid of a logical contradiction, it has to be one or the other.

My belief is that freedom to choose is only found within the will of God, thus man has free will when he is being obedient. And God can know future free choices, and include them in his plan, and so there is no contradiction or logical impossibility here.

I can't tell which one you chose. Are you saying that man does not have will or that God does not know the future exhaustively?

I must quote Lon here: "Your definition [of prophecy] differs from mine. Your conception has even unconditional prophecies as predictive well-guessed outcomes at times."

And yet if God says they are sure, when he is not sure, this must be lying.

And "If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the Lord does not take place or come true, that is a message the Lord has not spoken." (Dt. 18:22)

This sentence stands, as an epitaph of the Open View.

Blessings,
Lee

So there are conditional prophecies where God does not know which condition will take place?

 

[Yorzhik]

The Giants are giving the Patriots a run for their money tonight--this outcome seems not so certain.

So you couldn't say I was lying, could you.

Where's your "certain" and "truly, truly" now? Will you admit I have the power of God?

 

[lee_merrill]

Differently than what? Differently than what He was going to do if the other condition took place?

Yes.

If the conditions are right, He will speak and not act, He will promise and then not fulfill - as He promised.

But then the question to Balak makes no sense, if the answer is "Yes, he can change his mind if conditions are right."

You still haven't dealt with Jer 18.

Well, I indeed have thoughts on this chapter, see here please.

Lee: Now certainly if peoples' actions change, then God's response may indeed change.

Yorzhik: Change from what?

Change from what he would do under the previous circumstances.

I said it was certain... was I lying?

Yes, because it wasn't certain.

If humans don't have the will to put their palms the way they want, then they don't have will to do anything.

Not at all, if God says I will do X, that doesn't mean he makes every decision.

Because people are complex. We have conflicting desires. You prefer to continue to discuss Peter because it's hard to see exactly what he was thinking at the time. You need this complexity to uphold your Settled View, because looking at the situation clearly would hurt your pride.

I must say that what I read here does not explain how Peter did just what God said he would, when he was trying his best not to do it.

There is only a contradiction if the future is knowable. You didn't think this through.

Where is the contradiction, please?

Then He will have to say the opposite of what He says at the same time as He knows the effect will cause the opposite reaction.

I do not understand what you mean here.

You don't know what a logical contraction is.

It is when an argument is giving birth to logic.

Are you saying that man does not have will or that God does not know the future exhaustively?

I say people have free will within the will of God, and that God knows all the future.

So there are conditional prophecies where God does not know which condition will take place?

He knows, and so he can say what will happen if I do X, or not, this requires real knowledge of the future, you know, to be able to say what will definitely happen if I do X or refrain from it.

Definite knowledge of the future is also required in order to make an unconditional statement about the future, especially in the realm of human choices:

Matthew 26:33-34 Peter replied, "Even if all fall away on account of you, I never will." "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "this very night, before the rooster crows, you will disown me three times."

Blessings,
Lee

 

[lee_merrill]

How would you all explain how God can know a remnant will be saved? Isn't repentance dependent on human choice, according to the Open View?

For some number of people positively being saved is part of "his sentence on earth," and then after a time, "all Israel."

And I await a reply to the following:

Acts 11:14 He will bring you a message through which you and all your household will be saved.

This verse shows that God knows decisions concerning salvation, which OVT holds are free, and unknowable until they occur.

Something else got missed here, too.

Patman: With enough present knowledge, and enough knowledge about a person's habits, their future can be predicted.

RobE: Great, then foreknowledge of future free will acts are compatible with those same acts! ... This being true, does God know all the proximal future because God has complete present knowledge? Is God able to know the distant future because His knowledge of the proximal future is complete?

Blessings,
Lee

 

[Lon]

I just said He did. Let's go to God's word to arbitrate who's right:

Whoa. . . do you know what parameters are? They are promises about the possible (contradictory) paths a promise might take. You're shooting yourself in the foot already. But, still, let's go to God's word because I promised we would:

Jer 18:7 The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, 8 if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. 9 And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, 10 if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.

There you have it, Jer 18:7-9 is nothing but one big promise! And within that promise, God speaks of His promises.

Let's roll the tape and see what's inside that promise:
"The instant I speak concerning a nation… to pluck it up" <--- LOOK, it's a promise within that promise!
"if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil" <--- LOOK, it's a parameter! (notice the word "if")
"I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it." <--- LOOK, it's another promise promising to break the promise immediately prior! (depending on the parameter, immdiately prior).

So, according to the bible, Lon, God promises to break a promise depending on the parameters.

I disagree, it is part of the promise in the first place. "If you do this, I will do this. If you do that, I will do that." Seems consistent to me. promise, oath, and prophecy are all different words. I do not see promise as breaking.

From Vine's Dictionary: " signifies a gift graciously bestowed, not a pledge secured by negotiation"

Um... you just said, and I just laboriously pointed out how you were right, that God does change His mind (remember when you said "depending on the parameters"?). And here you say in the next sentence that God doesn't change His mind. Do you even read what you are typing?

Very wishful thinking on your part. God doesn't change His mind. Show me literally scripture that says exactly that. Changing one's mind is an absurd notion in colloquial terms that doesn't accurately portray God.
We change our minds (not literally of course, nor even against our own greatest inclination). It is, in fact, a reflection on our values that the inclination can change in the first place. He is perfect and doesn't have to. God is not only smart, "He is very smart." If we don't really change our minds, God certainly doesn't.

What? This is shockingly accurate. God's statement doesn't change that He promises to change. I'm not getting your meaning here since you said one sentence prior that God doesn't change.

Nice try again. You are either missing the point altogether or purposefully trying to twist just enough. A promise with conditions doesn't change God for He knows and even tells us exactly what will happen regarding 'our' decisions. It is we who change. God is so consistent in nature that His response is already given ahead of time. We do this too. "If you clean the house, we'll go to a movie. If you do not clean the house, we are not going." I've stated exactly what I will do according to my children's behavior. I haven't changed. I made a plan depending on their choice and I carry it out consistently. At the time of their choosing I've already decided and know what I am going to do. I do not deviate.

Well then we can keep our conversation to conditional prophecy.

Unless the condition is implied, right? Like at Nineveh. Or with King Hezekiah.

That would make it a conditional prophecy. Jonah certainly knew of the condition (Jonah 4).

From now on, when you say "if God made a prophecy that didn't come to pass it would make God a liar" you are summarily condemned, by your own statement here, and ultimately by God for falsely accusing Him of lying. Watch your pride, Lon, it is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Oh please. Prove that ridiculous point. For the record, I said:

No, but you could be wrong. You also couldn't have been sure last year, now there are many games behind them. They could still lose. We don't have near the ability God has.

What has that got to do with anything you just said?
I honestly believe you are perjoring yourself by trying to perjorize me in most of this post. If I'm wrong I'd be very happy but you are coming across very disingenuine and purposefully obtuse. Again, I'd be happy if I'm wrong but this is how I'm reading you right now.

All of God's unconditional prophecies come about exactly as He says.
All of God's conditional prophecies come about exactly as He says if one bothers to recognize what He said He'd do in the condition.
All of God's promises come about exactly as He said and He has every right to make reservations as He is Sovereign God and owes us nothing.

There, now the duty you have is to prove that God made a mistake so I can be condemned. You'll never do it because God never makes mistakes, is consistent and trustworthy and never breaks a promise. Has the earth ever been flooded again? Nope. Has Abraham children as the grains of the seashore? Yep.
Have all nations been blessed because of him? Yep. Did God drive out the nations before Israel? Yes. Was it an unconditional promise? Nope.

 

[Lon]

How would you all explain how God can know a remnant will be saved? Isn't repentance dependent on human choice, according to the Open View?

For some number of people positively being saved is part of "his sentence on earth," and then after a time, "all Israel."

And I await a reply to the following:

Acts 11:14 He will bring you a message through which you and all your household will be saved.

This verse shows that God knows decisions concerning salvation, which OVT holds are free, and unknowable until they occur.

Something else got missed here, too.



Blessings,
Lee

:first:

 

[RobE]

Why? What would stop me from turning my palms the other way?

In one instance God's power. --- God's decree to enact.
In the other instance your will. --- God's decree to allow.

How many events take place outside of God's decreetive will?

None.

 

[RobE]

God said Hezekiah would die in 15 days. He was wrong.

Behold! The power of cheesy theology! The footing is getting a little unsteady on that slope over there.

Now, to your quote. God is never wrong in the sense of "right and wrong" (righteousness), but He can be wrong if expects something, and gets something else (accuracy).

Grab up the kids and run for the hills --- the sand god is coming to town.

"I hope he's right with regards to my eternal destination and outcome. I know he'll do his best.", 1 Openess 6:66.

 

[lee_merrill]

Open Theist: God said Hezekiah would die in 15 days. He was wrong.

RobE: The footing is getting a little unsteady on that slope over there.

That it is...

"If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the Lord does not take place or come true, that is a message the Lord has not spoken." (Dt. 18:22)

Strange to think that Yorzhik skipped addressing this verse in his last reply...

 

[Lon]

Behold! The power of cheesy theology! The footing is getting a little unsteady on that slope over there.

Cheesy? It is heresy. Anybody agreeing with Sanders is in serious trouble.
God is never wrong or mistaken. Most OVer's squirm radically on this point and for good reason. Many deny Sander's statement and are very unwilling to commit this heresy, thankfully.

Grab up the kids and run for the hills --- the sand god is coming to town.

"I hope he's right with regards to my eternal destination and outcome. I know he'll do his best.", 1 Openess 6:66.

We need to pray and engage those who are in heresy agreeing with Sanders that God makes mistakes and is sometimes wrong.

 

[godrulz]

4TH QTR: PATRIOTS 38, GIANTS 35 1 minute to go, Giants in possession... Was close and good game.

How smart is God again (just for comparison). Can He safely predict now? Boy am I glad He waited to be sure! Yep, God's play by play of the minute and close calls are still 100%. I do not mean to extrapolate to the ridiculous but honestly, which seems more logical and appropriate? Will He pull off the 7 vials? Will there be any hitches? What makes you think God doesn't care about the outcome of the game? Why doesn't this particular exist as one of "all things work together for good for those who love God, who are called according to his purpose?"Rom 8:28

God not knowing the exact plays and outcomes of this game in eternity past is not a deficiency in omniscience. It is simply an unknowable thing due to the contingencies and uncertainties inherent. There were no possible objects of knowledge before creation to know as a certainty how this game would end before the players even existed. Is this not self-evident (try explaining a mechanism for SFK)?

 

[Evoken]

God not knowing the exact plays and outcomes of this game in eternity past is not a deficiency in omniscience. It is simply an unknowable thing due to the contingencies and uncertainties inherent. There were no possible objects of knowledge before creation to know as a certainty how this game would end before the players even existed. Is this not self-evident (try explaining a mechanism for SFK)?

Eternity past? Before the players even existed? Why go so far back in time godrulz?

Your god cannot know exactly how the next five minutes of the game will turn out. He cannot even know for sure wether the quarterback will throw a pass and to whom or if he will go for a run in the next move. According to you humans have libertarian free will, ergo, God cannot know for sure what the human will do until he actually does it. He may make a good guess, he may predict the outcome and end up being right. But he cannot know it for sure.

Unless you want to redefine omniscience to mean something entirely different to what it means, that is a deficiency in omniscience, godrulz. In fact, what your god has cannot even be called omniscience. He may be very knowledgeable and wise, but not omniscient.


Evo

 

[lee_merrill]

Eternity past? Before the players even existed? Why go so far back in time godrulz?

Your god cannot know exactly how the next five minutes of the game will turn out. He cannot even know for sure wether the quarterback will throw a pass and to whom or if he will go for a run in the next move. According to you humans have libertarian free will, ergo, God cannot know for sure what the human will do until he actually does it. He may make a good guess, he may predict the outcome and end up being right. But he cannot know it for sure.

Excellent.

 

[patman]

Behold! The power of cheesy theology! The footing is getting a little unsteady on that slope over there.

:chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:

Are you saying Hezi did die in 15 days?

:chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:

Rob, twisting our words will never make me trust your arguments to agreement, BTW.

 

[lee_merrill]

:chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:

Are you saying Hezi did die in 15 days?

Not excellent. Of course he didn't, and you all are saying God was wrong, and this is not twisting your words.

Yet OVT is twisting God's words.

Deuteronomy 18:22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the Lord does not take place or come true, that is a message the Lord has not spoken.

Isaiah 31:2 Yet he too is wise and can bring disaster; he does not take back his words.

 

[lee_merrill]

And this also you need to address, Patman.

How can God relent from something he knew all along he would never do? How can he say "if?" Why is there room for perhaps in any form?

Because he sometimes speaks from our perspective:

John 6:5-6 He said to Philip, "Where shall we buy bread for these people to eat?" He asked this only to test him, for he already had in mind what he was going to do.

And did we skip the verse that shows God knew they would not listen?

Jeremiah 7:27 "When you tell them all this, they will not listen to you; when you call to them, they will not answer."

Truly, truly, lee. God uses the word perhaps.

Yes, and even when he knows the outcome:

Jeremiah 51:8-9 "Babylon will suddenly fall and be broken. Wail over her! Get balm for her pain; perhaps she can be healed. We would have healed Babylon, but she cannot be healed..."

"Perhaps" is used, yet with knowledge that this hope is vain. Also, as Lon pointed out, this word can have other meanings than "perhaps."

Acts 11:14 He will bring you a message through which you and all your household will be saved.

Patman: Didn't you get the area of a circle analogy?

Certainly if there is enough information to compute a result, the result is evident. This verse shows however, that God knows decisions concerning salvation, which OVT holds are free, and unknowable.

Something else got missed here, too.

Patman: With enough present knowledge, and enough knowledge about a person's habits, their future can be predicted.

RobE: Great, then foreknowledge of future free will acts are compatible with those same acts! ... This being true, does God know all the proximal future because God has complete present knowledge? Is God able to know the distant future because His knowledge of the proximal future is complete?

Blessings,
Lee