ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 2

[Lon]

I actually did this on the thread. The issue is AMR, not you. Something is fishy and he is ignoring it, while attacking others for lesser issues. This is why I think he is arrogant at times. It is impossible that it is a coincidence or minor.

In this thread? I haven't seen it. You mentioned it in this thread, but I didn't see Hodge's quote, only AMR's.

The only thing I found remotely on the same topic from Hodge was here.

 

[Yorzhik]

Your original statement requires the following two answers. Even by your own ideas God carries out or coerces His own decrees. The term: "Decreetive will." above necessitates that the action is unfree.

Could you restate the question as you understand it and then list the two answers? I cannot figure out what question you are answering and what the 2 answers are from the above quote.

If we were to re-write the scenario in the correct form: "God's permissive will."...

He uses His knowledge of His permissive will and tells you if you will have your palms up or down in 10 seconds. Will you have your palms the way God says? Could you put your palms the other way if you so chose?​

What? Why the re-write? Doesn't God know His decreetive will?

The only will we are interested in is God's decreetive will. A re-write using God's permissive will would be wrong.

It's your choice and God's will is to allow it.

So it would make sense, in the Settled View economy to say, "It's your choice and God's permissive will is to allow it." But it would be wrong to say, "It's your choice and God's decreetive will is to allow it." Is that correct?

 

[RobE]

Could you restate the question as you understand it and then list the two answers? I cannot figure out what question you are answering and what the 2 answers are from the above quote.

The entire post was the 2 answers.

Originally Posted by Yorzhik
God is sitting across from you at the kitchen table. He uses His knowledge of His decreetive will and tells you if you will have your palms up or down in 10 seconds. Will you have your palms the way God says? Could you put your palms the other way if you so chose?

They were presented in two forms:
1. Will you have your palms the way God says?
Permissive Will --- Yes.
Decretive Will --- Yes.

2. Could you put your palms the other way if you so chose?
Permissive Will --- Yes.
Decretive will --- No.

In order to answer the question appropriately I need to know which type of decree you are speaking of:

Decretive will: 1. To bring about through power 2. To give permission to

What? Why the re-write? Doesn't God know His decreetive will?

Sure God knows His decretive will. Sometimes His decree(decretive will) is to allow us to act naturally which means we must describe this type of decree differently so the two might not be confused. The two I speak of are 1. Times when God brings things about through His own power and 2. Times when God allows others to bring things about through the power He has portioned to them.

I assume you speak of the first type of decrees in your illustration. I simply provided answers for both types of decrees.

The only will we are interested in is God's decretive will. A re-write using God's permissive will would be wrong.

My claim is that all actions are generically decretive; and, all actions are specifically decretive or permissive. In other words God decrees to allow man to sin. God does not decree that a man will sin.

So it would make sense, in the Settled View economy to say, "It's your choice and God's permissive will is to allow it." But it would be wrong to say, "It's your choice and God's decreetive will is to allow it." Is that correct?

No. Free acts of are allowed by God's decree(permissive will, #2 above). Unfree acts are enacted by God's power(decretive will, #1 above). Your original premise stated according to God's 'decretive will' which is obscure because we are unable to answer the question which doesn't specify what God is decreeing --- Is it the permission to act or the act itself? I answered both.

 

[lee_merrill]

How does God know that He will build His church and the gates of hell will not prevail?

These however do not depend so critically on human choices as repentance (according to OVT). So then how can God know that a remnant will be saved, and only a remnant, and then later, "all Israel", if repentance depends on man's free decision?

Based on His perfect past and present knowledge and infinite intelligence, He has a project for His people (Israel and Church) and the ability and perseverance to do what it takes to have a remnant. The reality is predictable from the past that only some believe while many do not believe.

I must remind you all again that it came down to just Noah once, could this not happen again, and the last person refuse to repent? And I insist that God is not predicting here, for he will carry out his sentence on earth, in this regard, Scripture says (Rom. 9:28).

I also pointed out that saved can mean delivered and does not necessarily refer to individual salvation.

Not in this context, though--here it must mean salvation from sin:

Isaiah 10:21 A remnant will return, a remnant of Jacob will return to the Mighty God.

Romans 11:26-27 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins."

You underestimate His greatness and creativity and assume He must be omnicausal in order to do this.

No I don't, why do you claim this as my view? But he is either the one who chooses who will be saved, or he knows future free choices, I actually believe both--note that my view need not imply that God causes all events, I do not in fact believe he does. However, if repentance is a free human choice, and God knows that a small number will be saved, and then a large number, then we have real knowledge concerning future free choices.

Blessings,
Lee

 

[lee_merrill]

Lee, the message was "In 40 Days Nineveh will be destroyed."

No, "overthrown" (or "overturned") was the word, this word is also used of changes in human hearts:

Psalm 105:25 Whose hearts he turned ["overturned"] to hate his people, to conspire against his servants.

So Nineveh was overthrown--by repentance, instead of by destruction.

What about "perhaps" verses?

Jeremiah 26:3
Perhaps everyone will listen and turn from his evil way, that I may relent concerning the calamity which I purpose to bring on them because of the evil of their doings.’

Yes, but God also knows they will not repent:

Jeremiah 7:27 "So you shall speak all these words to them, but they will not listen to you. You shall call to them, but they will not answer you."

So this "perhaps" must then be as here:

Jeremiah 51:8-9 "Babylon will suddenly fall and be broken. Wail over her! Get balm for her pain; perhaps she can be healed. We would have healed Babylon, but she cannot be healed..."

"Perhaps" is used, yet with knowledge that this hope is vain.

Blessings,
Lee

 

[lee_merrill]

So when God says He promises to change his mind under certain conditions, wouldn't you expect that God would not change His mind if those conditions are not met?

Certainly he would respond differently, only at times he also says "I will surely bring judgment," this would imply he knows there will be no repentance. But how could God know this?

Jeremiah 22:6 For this is what the Lord says about the palace of the king of Judah: "Though you are like Gilead to me, like the summit of Lebanon, I will surely make you like a desert, like towns not inhabited."

Jeremiah 23:39 "Therefore behold, I will surely forget you and cast you away from my presence, along with the city which I gave you and your fathers."

Jer. 29:32 This is what the Lord says: "I will surely punish Shemaiah the Nehelamite and his descendants. He will have no one left among this people, nor will he see the good things I will do for my people, declares the Lord, because he has preached rebellion against me."

These are just a sample of such verses in Jeremiah, there are more here and elsewhere.

You still have to deal with God promising to break His promises under certain conditions.

So he does speak and then not act, he does promise, and not fulfill? But I have dealt with the Open View verses, here is a summary.

I'm certain the Pats are going to be undefeated this season...

So how about now? Am I lying?

If you tell me "this event is certain" then that is indeed lying or self-deception, because this event is not certain.

Yorzhik: ... are humans not capable of determining to will their palms the opposite of whatever God says?

Lee: What has happened to the omnicompetent God?

Yorzhik: The omnicompetent God is smart enough to realize the situation is logically absurd. Therefore He couldn't do it any more than He could make a rock so big He couldn't lift it.

You're saying God cannot bring about my hands being palms down on the table, I believe he is competent to do that. I must note that he can name a ruler named Cyrus many years in the future who will give a command to rebuild the temple, and he can predict that Peter will deny him, when Peter tries his best not to.

Are humans not capable of determining to will their palms the opposite of whatever God says?

No, they are not.

Proverbs 19:21 Many are the plans in a man's heart, but it is the Lord's purpose that prevails.

The situation with Peter is similar, but there are a number of factors that make it impossible to tell what Peter's will was at the time of denial. What we will to do can change from moment to moment. Removing those factors, we can test the existence of will. You'd rather not remove the extenuating factors because then your pride would be hurt. As a brother in Christ, please pray that God would help you overcome your pride.

But what I read here does not explain how Peter did just what God said he would, when he was trying his best not to do it.

What God says can affect how you will put your palms. Therefore, what God says cannot accurately predict how you will put your palms... which, if that same God knows the future exhaustively, is a logical contradiction.

Within Open Theism, yes, there is a contradiction, if the future is unknowable. But if God can know the effect of what he says, then he can know what you will do.

Isaiah 55:11 So is my word that goes out from my mouth: it will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.

However, the Open View entails another contradiction in regard to knowledge of Peter's decision, how a free decision can be known, so that Jesus says "truly, truly"? a view which multiplies such contradictions should be moved down on the list of views to consider.

Lee: God cannot make true be false, or false be true.

Yorzhik: So now you have a choice; Either man does not have will, or God does not know the future exhaustively. If you have to get rid of a logical contradiction, it has to be one or the other.

My belief is that freedom to choose is only found within the will of God, thus man has free will when he is being obedient. And God can know future free choices, and include them in his plan, and so there is no contradiction or logical impossibility here.

Just because this is a prophecy that hasn't happened yet, doesn't mean it is different than prophecies in the past.

God's estimate that only a remnant will be saved is the same as God's estimate that Israel would fall away ...

I must quote Lon here: "Your definition [of prophecy] differs from mine. Your conception has even unconditional prophecies as predictive well-guessed outcomes at times."

And yet if God says they are sure, when he is not sure, this must be lying.

And "If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the Lord does not take place or come true, that is a message the Lord has not spoken." (Dt. 18:22)

This sentence stands, as an epitaph of the Open View.

Blessings,
Lee

 

[lee_merrill]

Patman: This verse also addresses the knowledge question... God knows what he knows by determination, calculation, witnessing and understanding. Yet as the O.V. says, there are times his future knowledge is uncertain, and he cannot know what "will" happen, so he has to suppose what "perhaps will happen."

RobE: Then the o.v. would have to provide a logical reason that God is able to know free acts in one instance and not able in another. Free acts are free acts. Either knowledge is compatible with them or it isn't. Step up to the plate.

Indeed, sir Rob. Indeed, sir Patman, please step up here and explain this, for according to the Open View, you cannot determine, calculate, witness ahead of time, or understand what a free decision will be, they are inherently unknowable. Yet God knows them.

Acts 11:14 He will bring you a message through which you and all your household will be saved.

Blessings,
Lee

 

[patman]

No, "overthrown" (or "overturned") was the word, this word is also used of changes in human hearts:

Psalm 105:25 Whose hearts he turned ["overturned"] to hate his people, to conspire against his servants.

So Nineveh was overthrown--by repentance, instead of by destruction.


Yes, but God also knows they will not repent:

Jeremiah 7:27 "So you shall speak all these words to them, but they will not listen to you. You shall call to them, but they will not answer you."

So this "perhaps" must then be as here:

Jeremiah 51:8-9 "Babylon will suddenly fall and be broken. Wail over her! Get balm for her pain; perhaps she can be healed. We would have healed Babylon, but she cannot be healed..."

"Perhaps" is used, yet with knowledge that this hope is vain.

Blessings,
Lee

Lee, you cannot use these two instances as the same. God had new hope that perhaps they would turn, look at the whole verse!

Jeremiah 26
3 Perhaps everyone will listen and turn from his evil way, that I may relent concerning the calamity which I purpose to bring on them because of the evil of their doings.’ 4 And you shall say to them, ‘Thus says the LORD: “If you will not listen to Me, to walk in My law which I have set before you, 5 to heed the words of My servants the prophets whom I sent to you, both rising up early and sending them (but you have not heeded), 6 then I will make this house like Shiloh, and will make this city a curse to all the nations of the earth.”’”

And later

19 Did Hezekiah king of Judah and all Judah ever put him to death? Did he not fear the LORD and seek the LORD’s favor? And the LORD relented concerning the doom which He had pronounced against them. But we are doing great evil against ourselves.”

Why does God keep relenting? Why does he say "perhaps" and "if?" How can God relent from something he knew all along he would never do? How can he say "if?" Why is there room for perhaps in any form?

Because the future is open.

Truly, truly, lee. God uses the word perhaps.

 

[patman]

Indeed, sir Rob. Indeed, sir Patman, please step up here and explain this, for according to the Open View, you cannot determine, calculate, witness ahead of time, or understand what a free decision will be, they are inherently unknowable. Yet God knows them.

Acts 11:14 He will bring you a message through which you and all your household will be saved.

Blessings,
Lee

Lee, how do you keep missing my answers? Didn't you get the area of a circle analogy?

 

[patman]

How God knows the future sometimes and not others

How God knows the future sometimes and not others

How God knows the future for some free will agents and not others? The answer is very simple. God bases his future knowledge on a complete knowledge of the present. Depending on the given information drives the depth of the predictions.

Take habits as an example.

You do not need extensive foreknowledge to predict the future for an individual if you understand their habits. However, if you do not understand someone's habits, you may not be able to predict the future.

If you know someone who has a habit of smoking, and you know they have not had a cigarette in hours, you can predict they will smoke soon. You can even predict where they will smoke if you know their environment allows for few smoking outlets. If you know what brand they buy, you can even predict what brand they will smoke. So if you work together and know they take a break at 4:30, you can bank on where they will be at 4:30, what they will be doing, where, and what exact kind of cigarette they will smoke.

With enough present knowledge, and enough knowledge about a person's habits, their future can be predicted.

But what if someone doesn't smoke? When break time comes, they may not have a smoking routine. Maybe they like to talk on their cell. Maybe they like to sit in their car. If you know them well enough, you can predict what they will do if they have a habit.

There are times a freewill agent is predictable because of its habits. There are times a freewill agent has yet to develop habits, making it harder to predict.

Lets say there is another co-worker who has a lot of drama going on. He has a crush, and is in a heated argument with another person from earlier in the week. He also has a few friends he like to hang out with. Can you so easily tell what will happen to him during the break at 4:30? Maybe he will chitchat with friends, maybe he will visit his love interest? Maybe he will start a fight?

This freewill agent is much harder to predict for us than the others. The same principal can be used as an example as to how God can predict freewill agent actions in some cases and not others.

I hope you can see at least principal at play now!

 

[patman]

Patman, I'll try to address your concerns here as well.

Where??
:idunno:

 

[Lon]

Lee, you cannot use these two instances as the same. God had new hope that perhaps they would turn, look at the whole verse!

Jeremiah 26
3 Perhaps everyone will listen and turn from his evil way, that I may relent concerning the calamity which I purpose to bring on them because of the evil of their doings.’ 4 And you shall say to them, ‘Thus says the LORD: “If you will not listen to Me, to walk in My law which I have set before you, 5 to heed the words of My servants the prophets whom I sent to you, both rising up early and sending them (but you have not heeded), 6 then I will make this house like Shiloh, and will make this city a curse to all the nations of the earth.”’”

And later

19 Did Hezekiah king of Judah and all Judah ever put him to death? Did he not fear the LORD and seek the LORD’s favor? And the LORD relented concerning the doom which He had pronounced against them. But we are doing great evil against ourselves.”

Why does God keep relenting? Why does he say "perhaps" and "if?" How can God relent from something he knew all along he would never do? How can he say "if?" Why is there room for perhaps in any form?

Because the future is open.

Truly, truly, lee. God uses the word perhaps.

Look up the Hebrew in Strong's for your word definitions.

H194
אלי אוּלי
'ûlay 'ûlay
oo-lah'ee, oo-lah'ee
From H176; if not; hence perhaps: - if so be, may be, peradventure, unless.

H176
או או
'ô 'av
o, av
The first form is presumed to be the “constructive” or genitival form of the second form which is short for H185; desire (and so probably in Pro_31:4); hence (by way of alternative) or, also if: - also, and, either, if, at the least, X nor, or, otherwise, then, whether.

H518
אם
'im
eem
A primitive particle; used very widely as demonstrative, lo!; interrogitive, whether?; or conditional, if, although; also Oh that!, when; hence as a negative, not: - (and, can-, doubtless, if, that) (not), + but, either, + except, + more (-over if, than), neither, nevertheless, nor, oh that, or, + save (only, -ing), seeing, since, sith, + surely (no more, none, not), though, + of a truth, + unless, + verily, when, whereas, whether, while, + yet.

You are building quite a bit of doctrine off of translation of those little words so it is important otherwise we have "God changing His mind" as repentance rather than the Hebrew word to sigh. We have a lot of stakes in the definition department respectively and it tends to be the most pressing in our debates. Relativism is seen worst in our language where meaning is being lost in interpreting little words and leads to relative stances in theology.

What about "perhaps" verses?

Jeremiah 26:3
Perhaps everyone will listen and turn from his evil way, that I may relent concerning the calamity which I purpose to bring on them because of the evil of their doings.’

How do you explain eternal things to a temporal people? You use temporal language. The Hebrew word is a condition. That does not mean God does not know the answer to the proposition, therefore it isn't a proof text for your theology. We have these texts but we also have the compelling texts that God knows. In any scenario was God ever wrong? "No" is my answer. God never is mistaken. If God is 'very smart' you are so close to agreeing that God has EDF.

Maybe it is as O.V. says, that there are parts of the future that are known to God, and parts that are in question....

What is in question? Has God ever been wrong? Has He ever made a mistake?
What has He been wrong about? Since God predicts 100% accurately, doesn't that tell you something a little beyond "very smart?"

This verse also addresses the knowledge question... God knows what he knows by determination, calculation, witnessing and understanding. Yet as the O.V. says, there are times his future knowledge is uncertain, and he cannot know what "will" happen, so he has to suppose what "perhaps will happen."

"God is not only a 'good guesser,' He is very smart." I understand your position, but take it to the extrapolation: God has never been wrong. Doesn't that push the envelope for your definition here? Doesn't it equate to a virtual EDF you actually believe in? I understand your 'future does not exist' and 'God is constrained by incremental change' scenarios, but I believe them wrong.
God has busted out of your time consideration already by not having a past and you accept this as dichotomy to the truth you know (God cannot escape sequential order). Keep going with this. It is important that you contemplate a timeless nonbeginning because that is exactly what eternity past means. You accept the truth of it. Look at what it says: "God has no starting place for sequence of events." Take it logically and you'll realize with me that it defies logic.

Your equations are interesting, but as you know we use variables in math to help us figure out unknown answers. If we want to find the area of a circle, we use an equation full of unknown variables. We fill in the variables we do know to get the unknown answer.

∏ * r^2 = A

If we have a million circles and want to know their area, we can use this equation to find all of them. If a circle is not yet drawn yet, we cannot know it's area until we know it's radius. The area depends on the radius.

If we were to watch a circle start, we would need a certain amount of the circle to be drawn before we could tell what the radius would be. Until then, r and A are unknown. But pi is known. Forever and ever it is known. You want Pi? You can have pi! hehe

So time is like this, parts of the equation are known, and others are not until they exist. But the second enough information is available, don't doubt for a second that God can know the future area of a still undrawn circle in an instant.

Since God is infinite, doesn't He infinitely know all circle information? It doesn't quite touch EDF does it? The analogy doesn't reach into that discussion. It is similar to knowing whether Peter would deny Him 3X's or not. It doesn't really tell us how He knew any more than Him knowing the radius of the circle you will draw in the future. We haven't touched how God knows that and why. That is the point of our discussion. So in addition to God being outside of our sequential experience, is the fact that His knowledge is also not limited by our sequential existence.

 

[RobE]

How God knows the future for some free will agents and not others? The answer is very simple. God bases his future knowledge on a complete knowledge of the present. Depending on the given information drives the depth of the predictions.

God created Adam; body, mind, and soul. Is it reasonable to assume God had complete knowledge of Adam including his habits, thoughts, and emotions?

Take habits as an example.

Ok. Are habits an outgrowth of a man's mind and heart?

You do not need extensive foreknowledge to predict the future for an individual if you understand their habits. However, if you do not understand someone's habits, you may not be able to predict the future.

Does God know all things which are presently knowable? If so then God knows your habits.

With enough present knowledge, and enough knowledge about a person's habits, their future can be predicted.

Great, then foreknowledge of future free will acts are compatible with those same acts! Finally, you are making sense of your own theology. This being true, does God know all the proximal future because God has complete present knowledge? Is God able to know the distant future because His knowledge of the proximal future is complete?

There are times a freewill agent is predictable because of its habits. There are times a freewill agent has yet to develop habits, making it harder to predict.

Aren't habits an outgrowth of your nature which He created? Try not to back-slide now(baptist upbringing)? Proclivities and the such make mankind very predictable. We are able to predict the actions of others in a limited fashion ourselves. How much more would this be possible if we held all present knowledge as a certainty?

 

[lee_merrill]

How can God relent from something he knew all along he would never do? How can he say "if?" Why is there room for perhaps in any form?

Because he sometimes speaks from our perspective:

John 6:5-6 He said to Philip, "Where shall we buy bread for these people to eat?" He asked this only to test him, for he already had in mind what he was going to do.

And did we skip the verse that shows God knew they would not listen?

Jeremiah 7:27 "When you tell them all this, they will not listen to you; when you call to them, they will not answer."

Truly, truly, lee. God uses the word perhaps.

Yes, and even when he knows the outcome:

Jeremiah 51:8-9 "Babylon will suddenly fall and be broken. Wail over her! Get balm for her pain; perhaps she can be healed. We would have healed Babylon, but she cannot be healed..."

"Perhaps" is used, yet with knowledge that this hope is vain. Also, as Lon pointed out, this word can have other meanings than "perhaps."

Acts 11:14 He will bring you a message through which you and all your household will be saved.

Patman: Didn't you get the area of a circle analogy?

Certainly if there is enough information to compute a result, the result is evident. This verse shows however, that God knows decisions concerning salvation, which OVT holds are free, and unknowable.

Blessings,
Lee

 

[lee_merrill]

Patman: With enough present knowledge, and enough knowledge about a person's habits, their future can be predicted.

RobE: Great, then foreknowledge of future free will acts are compatible with those same acts! ... This being true, does God know all the proximal future because God has complete present knowledge? Is God able to know the distant future because His knowledge of the proximal future is complete?

:jessilu:

 

[patman]

Lon,

You said a lot without one verse. When does eternal=exhaustive foreknowledge?

How does the hebrew contradict the understanding of the verses involving "perhaps?" You are just speaking to be heard.

You never display humility or willingness to be disproved. Like RobE. Am I just wasting my "breath" with you? All you do is twist things, and whenever I offer something of substance, you just give me a "I dont wanna study right now" or "I'll think about it later."

I egerly await the proof verse from the S.V. that clearly says "God has exhaustive future knowledge and is pretending not to," as is the standard answer you guys give.:doh:

 

[Lon]

Lon,

You said a lot without one verse. When does eternal=exhaustive foreknowledge?

How does the hebrew contradict the understanding of the verses involving "perhaps?" You are just speaking to be heard.

You never display humility or willingness to be disproved. Like RobE. Am I just wasting my "breath" with you? All you do is twist things, and whenever I offer something of substance, you just give me a "I dont wanna study right now" or "I'll think about it later."

I egerly await the proof verse from the S.V. that clearly says "God has exhaustive future knowledge and is pretending not to," as is the standard answer you guys give.:doh:

Hmmm, I expected better of you in light of this post and this one.
I didn't think I had to post scriptures for a doctrine in agreement. God is Eternal (timeless), His knowledge is eternal (timeless).

Deut.32:40 (eternal)

Job 36:26 (eternal, incomprehensible)

Ps 33:11 (Eternal, EDF)

Ps. 90: 2 (Eternal)

Ps. 93: 2 (Eternal)

Ps. 102: 27 (Eternal, unchanging)
Prov.8:23

Isa.41:4 (EDF)

Isa. 55:8-9 (incomprehensible, exalted)

Isa. 57: 15 (eternal,exalted)

Mal. 3: 6 (unchanging)

Matt 24:35(eternal,unchanging)

Eph.1:4 (EDF)

1 Tim 1:17 (eternal,exalted)
1 Tim 6:15-16 (eternal, exalted, incomprehensible)

Heb. 13: 8 (unchanging)

2 Pet 3:8 (Without sequential constraints)

Does OV have to deny God's eternal nonbeginning now? Woe upon woes.

 

[RobE]

I egerly await the proof verse from the S.V. that clearly says "God has exhaustive future knowledge and is pretending not to," as is the standard answer you guys give.:doh:

The standard answer is that God is relational to His creation. He works with us to bring about His decrees and interacts with us to establish the future which He wills. God is living and we are not deists since God is 'hands on' or Pelagians since God does not err. Maybe you haven't heard my response to this idea of yours:

It is not lying to withold knowledge. God is under no requirement to reveal ALL that He knows when speaking to man as is exhibited in the statement 'Yet in 40 days, Nineveh will be destroyed!'(paraphrased).​

How about a verse which says man has free will, that free will is incompatible with foreknowledge, or a verse which states God does not know the future.:think:

This question is rediculous and always has been.

Maybe you could provide a verse which says zebras have stripes, that man has a pancreas, or maybe that God is unable to do all things which are possible.:think:

The only verses I can find which relate to my questions say that God knows all things knowable and is able to do all things which are possible.

If God is able to know free acts in some cases then knowing free acts is possible. Therefore, inductively God knows all free acts. Period. Open Theists must cease eating and having cake simultaneously. It's simply too messy!:wave:

Again in case you overlooked it:

It is not lying to withold knowledge. God is under no requirement to reveal ALL that He knows when speaking to man as is exhibited in the statement 'Yet in 40 days, Nineveh will be destroyed!'(paraphrased).​

And again, in case English is not your first language:

God does not reveal His entire mind and all of His intentions to mankind. It is not a lie to withold information. It is not a lie to reveal His intentions and mind in part.​

Rob

 

[lee_merrill]

I eagerly await the proof verse from the S.V. that clearly says "God has exhaustive future knowledge and is pretending not to," as is the standard answer you guys give.

Jeremiah 51:8-9 "Babylon will suddenly fall and be broken. Wail over her! Get balm for her pain; perhaps she can be healed. We would have healed Babylon, but she cannot be healed..."

"Perhaps" is used, yet with knowledge that this hope is vain. Also, as Lon pointed out, this word can have other meanings than "perhaps."

As far as exhaustive knowledge of the future, I would mention along with what Lon and RobE said, the following comments from me here.

And I await your reply to the following:

Acts 11:14 He will bring you a message through which you and all your household will be saved.

This verse shows that God knows decisions concerning salvation, which OVT holds are free, and unknowable until they occur.

Something else got missed here, too.

Patman: With enough present knowledge, and enough knowledge about a person's habits, their future can be predicted.

RobE: Great, then foreknowledge of future free will acts are compatible with those same acts! ... This being true, does God know all the proximal future because God has complete present knowledge? Is God able to know the distant future because His knowledge of the proximal future is complete?

Blessings,
Lee

 

[lee_merrill]

I'm certain the Pats are going to be undefeated this season...

So how about now? Am I lying?

The Giants are giving the Patriots a run for their money tonight--this outcome seems not so certain.