ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 2

[Ask Mr. Religion]

No I haven't noticed that at all. I know of no other TOL poster that consistently answers as directly as Clete does.

Hey AMR I see you are from Chandler AZ, I was just in Gilbert AZ visiting relatives. Yikes!!! It's hot down there!!! :shocked:

Indeed it is. About 108 today. I sit outside most days with my laptop where I have a portable swamp cooler to make things more pleasant.

I wish you had let me know you were in the area. I would have liked to have met you in person.

 

[Reader]

=Clete


Well we can't all be right, AMR. Either I am right and you are a heretic or its the other way around.

O.K. you sick little hate-filled, heretical creep . . .here I am.

I knock Calvinism out of the park with every swing!

You are delusional.



Try coming up my driveway, and attempting to destroy my faith, face to face!




Reader

 

[godrulz]

O.K. you sick little hate-filled, heretical creep . . .here I am.


You are delusional.



Try coming up my driveway, and attempting to destroy my faith, face to face!




Reader

The newbie has thrown down the gauntlet. Tell us about yourself, or are you a reincarnation of an old poster?

 

[Evoken]

O.K. you sick little hate-filled, heretical creep . . .here I am.







You are delusional.



Try coming up my driveway, and attempting to destroy my faith, face to face!




Reader

That was hardly a charitable entry. We know that "Readers" post in threads but we do not know who "Reader" is, perhaps a more proper introduction is in order?


Evo

 

[Nathon Detroit]

O.K. you sick little hate-filled, heretical creep . . .here I am.

Ahhh... Calvinism... ya gotta love it!

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Indeed it is. About 108 today. I sit outside most days with my laptop where I have a portable swamp cooler to make things more pleasant.

I wish you had let me know you were in the area. I would have liked to have met you in person.

That would have been nice. We were on a family trip (I have six children) so our time was completely filled with events. I would love to meet you on some other occasion. Perhaps you could come here to Colorado and straighten out our church some morning. You and our Pastor could have a "back-n-forth" it would be edifying for all.

 

[Nang]

That was hardly a charitable entry. We know that "Readers" post in threads but we do not know who "Reader" is, perhaps a more proper introduction is in order?


Evo

Clete knows who "Reader" is . . .

 

[Nang]

Ahhh... Calvinism... ya gotta love it!

Yeah, you should, for Calvinists are brave enough to make it known they intend to defend themselves against public as well as private expressions of hatred and threats.

And there has been more than one public message expressing extreme hate towards my person and private expressions of hope and anticipation, that I, as a Calvinist, might go to hell.

Not nice. Done in secret, too. (Want copies?)

Oh well, God sees . . .

Nang

 

[Delmar]

...you somehow think that this means free will trumps God's purposes...

The true God is mighty enough to allow free will, and still accomplish His purposes!

 

[DFT_Dave]

It may well be that God's purpose is that Clete realizes that his position is wrong after discussing with AMR. The claim "God is working out His purposes through us all" does not has to mean that whatever one is doing at the present moment is what one must necessarily continue to do.

I don't agree with Clete (Open Theism) nor with AMR (Calvinism), but in this particular case I don't think AMR's actions contradict his statement about God's purpose.


Evo

If you had read everything he has been saying you would know that he does contradict himself, as do all Calvinists regarding man's free will and God's sovereignty.

 

[Nang]

The true God is mighty enough to allow free will, and still accomplish His purposes!

Oh really?

Would you not be the religionist who would teach that God wills that all men be saved, and purposed that Jesus Christ shed His blood in order that all men might be saved, but due to human unbelief and rejection of the call of the Holy Spirit and this gospel message, that multitudes still will enter hell, despite God's good intents, efforts, cross work and stated eternal purposes?

 

[Delmar]

Oh really?

Would you not be the religionist who would teach that God wills that all men be saved, and purposed that Jesus Christ shed His blood in order that all men might be saved, but due to human unbelief and rejection of the call of the Holy Spirit and this gospel message, that multitudes still will enter hell, despite God's good intents, efforts, cross work and stated eternal purposes?

God does not purpose that all men are forced to love Him.

 

[Nang]

God does not purpose that all men are forced to love Him.

Do you believe that God purposed that His Son die to forgive the sins of all men?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

And there has been more than one public message expressing extreme hate towards my person and private expressions of hope and anticipation, that I, as a Calvinist, might go to hell.

Based on how you and your husband post I can see why that might happen.

Do onto others.... (know what I mean?)

I have a question for you Nang....

Do you believe I (and others like me) should be Calvinist?

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Can one be able to do anything, and unable to change at the same time?

Can an omnipotent God also be immutable? This is an old chesnut that newcomers to theological topics “re-discover” when they begin exploring the domain. Every new student of theology encounters this; it is a favorite of professors who like asking "extra credit" questions. At first, it appears to be a logical dilemma, and some exclaim, “Aha!”, yet when we properly define our terms no dilemma exists. Thus, Lighthouse, I have not been too motivated to answer the question here. In any event, to give you credit for persistance, and to put an end to your question, , my answer is YES, God can be omnipotent and immutable per the discussion of these terms below.

Please carefully review the items below and get back to me should you have more questions. I have provided as many Scripture references for each item as I could think of for your review, too.

God’s incommunicable attributes
First, as Christians we must realize that while God’s attributes are a sufficient source for a description of God, they are not comprehensive. After all, we are admonished, “Who has known the mind of the Lord…?” (Rom 11:34) and that God’s thoughts are much, much, higher than our thoughts (Isa. 55:9). The incommunicable attributes of God are those attributes that cannot be fully shared with man, thereby exalting God above man. God is the creator, and mankind is His creation.

Self-Existence (sometimes called Independence or Aseity)
God is self-reliant. He does not need us, or creation, or anything. On the other hand, mankind is totally God-reliant. God’s being is qualitatively different that any other being. Mankind relies on God for all His sustaining of life. For example, see Acts 17:24-25; Job 41:11; Rev. 4:11; Ps. 90:2; 2 Pe. 3:8

Eternity
God exists outside the bounds of time. God is without beginning or end. God experiences no succession of moments in His being. God sees all of time “equally vividly”. For example, God created the universe, yet there has never been a moment in God’s mind that the universe did not always exist. From God’s perspective, any extremely long period of time is as if it just happened. Moreover any very short period of time, e.g., one day, seems to God to last forever: it never ceases to be “present” in his consciousness. This is what I mean when stating that God sees the past, present, and future equally vividly.

God is not subject to any limitations of His creation. God is far greater than anything He has made. Mankind has a beginning, and each person must function within the boundaries of time. God, unlike man, does not have to learn anything, and God does not react out of surprise to events. This does not mean God is impersonal, indeed, God speaks to us, rejoices in us, and loves us. God also sees events in time and can and does act in time. God created time and rules over time, using it for his own purposes and glory. But God’s experience of time nothing like mankind experiences time. God’s does not experience a patient endurance through eons of endless duration, instead God has a qualitatively different experience of time than we do.
For example, see Ps. 90:2; Ps. 90:4; Rev. 1:8; Rev. 4:8; John 8:58; Ex. 3:14; Isa. 45:21; Isa. 46:9-10; Gal. 4:4-5; Acts 17:30-31

Unity (sometimes called Simplicity)
God is one, and His nature is indivisible, that is God is not divided into parts. Each aspect of God’s character operates in perfect harmony with all the others. There is an assumption that every attribute is completely true of God and is true of all of God’s character. For example, God’s justice is never compromised by His mercy, nor is His mercy ever compromised by His justice.

When Scripture speaks about God’s attributes it never singles out one attribute of God as more important than all the rest. All such attempts to do so misconceive of God as some combination of parts, with some of these parts being more influential or larger than other parts. For that matter, what would it mean to say this or that attribute of God is “more important” than another? Does it mean that there are some of God’s actions that are not fully consistent with some of His other attributes? Does it mean that there are attributes of God that He somehow sets aside at times so that He may act in ways that are slightly contrary to those attributes? Naturally we cannot accept either perspective. Instead we see all of God’s attributes as various aspects of the total character of God and such questions are not necessary.

God’s unity is contrary to God’s creatures, who often work in disunity. For example, mankind may function purely out of anger, or a sense of justice, or out of empathy, despite acting in a way contrary to other aspects of their nature.
For example, see 1 John 1:5; 1 John 1:48; Ex. 34:6-7

Immutability (sometimes called Unchangeability)
God’s perfections and attributes are unchangeable. They do not increase, or decrease in number, quality or power. This is in comparison to mankind who is totally depraved, and as we are in that state desperately need to be changed. God not only does not change from without or from within, He cannot change from without or from within. There is no self-development or degeneration of God. God’s perfection is all that God can be or want to be. Only God alone is altogether unchangeable. God is unchanging in his being, perfections, purposes, and promises. Having said that, God does act and feel emotions, and He acts and feels differently in response to different situations. All of God’s creatures are mutable by the power of the God, in whose power is all creatures’ existence and non-existence. For example, see Ps. 33:11; Ps. 102:25-27; Mal. 3:6; James 1:17; Isa. 46:9-11; Num. 23:19; 1 Sam. 15:29; Zech. 8:17

Infinity
See Eternity

Omnipresence
God is everywhere present in all of His being, yet God acts differently in different places and God cannot be contained by any space. Indeed, God existed before anything we can call spatiality existed. Mankind is confined to a singular location in the dimension of “time”. For example, see Gen. 1:1; Deut. 10:14; Jer. 23:23-24; Ps. 139:7-10; I Kings 8:27; Isa. 66:1-2; Acts 7:48; Col. 1:7; Heb. 1:3


God’s communicable attributes
These are attributes of God that are more shared with mankind

Omniscience
God knows Himself and all things actual (i.e., all things that exist and all things that happen) and all the particular things that could ever be actualized in one simple eternal act. There is nothing that God does not know. Man’s knowledge is learned, and apart from the Holy Spirit’s illumination of the Scriptures, man’s knowledge of any given topic is imperfect. For example, see Job 37:16; 1 John 3:20; 1 Cor. 2:10-11; Heb. 4:13; 2 Chron. 16:9; Job 28:24; Matt. 10:29-30; Isa. 46:9-10; Isa. 42:8-9; Matt. 6:8; Matt. 10:30; Ps. 139:1-2; Ps. 139:4; Ps. 139:16; Rom. 11:33

Omnipotence
God can do anything God wills to do that is consistent with His character. God can do what God in fact does not do--in the sense that the present course of events in no way is produced by God from any necessity. Other events could well have happened, had God willed them to happen, and God could have willed them to happen had God wanted to. If God wills events, then events happen, but God didn't have to will them. In other words, God is able to do all His holy will. While God’s power is infinite, God’s use of that power is qualified by His other attributes, just as all of God’s attributes qualify all of God’s actions.

God can always do better than what God does--there will always be a gap between God and any participation in the goodness of God. Thus God cannot be required to do the better, only something which is good. God can make each of His creations better. Of course, if God makes a human being, God makes a human being, not an angel; but God could have made people more virtuous and wise than the ones God has made, and God can make things better than human beings or angels or whatever God may in fact have made.

Man is totally reliant on God for any power he may have.
For example, see Jer. 32:17; Jer. 32:27; Gen. 8:14; Luke 1:37; Matt. 19:26; Ps. 115:3; Matt. 3:9;

Sovereignty
God is continually involved with all of His created things in such that God (1) keeps them existing and maintaining the properties with which He created them; (2) cooperates with created things in every action, directing their distinctive properties to cause them to act as they do; and (3) directs them to fulfill His purposes. In other words, God is totally sovereign over all of His creation. Absolutely nothing in God’s creation can act independently of God’s sovereignty. God will always do what He has said, and will fulfill what He has promised. Man may claim sovereignty over his own life, but ultimately God is in control.

For example, see Heb 1:3; Col. 1:17; Acts 17:28; Neh. 9:6; 2 Peter 3:7; Job 12:23; Job 34:14-15; Job 38:32; Matt. 5:45; Matt. 6:26; Num. 23:19; 2 Sam. 7:28; Ps. 33:14-15; Ps. 104:14; Ps. 104:29; Ps. 135:6; Ps. 139:16; Ps. 141:6; Ps. 148:8; Prov. 16:1; Prov. 16:33; Prov. 20:24; Prov. 21:1; Prov. 30:5; John 17:17; Eph. 1:11; Gal. 1:15; Jer. 1:5; 1 Cor. 4:7

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

O.K. you sick little hate-filled, heretical creep . . .here I am.
You are delusional.
Try coming up my driveway, and attempting to destroy my faith, face to face!

Yikes!

 

[Spitfire]

Yikes!

He's faking it.

Well, he was, anyway.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

And there has been more than one public message expressing extreme hate towards my person and private expressions of hope and anticipation, that I, as a Calvinist, might go to hell.

I am wondering if TOL has any rules of conduct that cover private messaging? It would seem to me that there should be some protections. I assume the same rules that apply for public posting would apply for private messaging as a minimum.

Would a nasty PM (insert your favorite public example from someone who was banned) be a bannable offense?

 

[godrulz]

Religion: Can you answer lighthouse's question in a sentence or two? Stating traditional views about God's attributes does not clearly answer the question. It may be obvious to you, but not to others.

LH: It would help if you told us why you believe differently.

Is the resolution in how we define omnipotence/immutability?

God can change in some ways, but not in other ways. Omnipotence also does not mean doing everything one can possibly do all the time nor does it mean doing the undoable (logical contradictions).

A brief summary from both of you would be helpful.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Religion: Can you answer lighthouse's question in a sentence or two? Stating traditional views about God's attributes does not clearly answer the question. It may be obvious to you, but not to others.

LH: It would help if you told us why you believe differently.

Is the resolution in how we define omnipotence/immutability?

God can change in some ways, but not in other ways. Omnipotence also does not mean doing everything one can possibly do all the time nor does it mean doing the undoable (logical contradictions).

A brief summary from both of you would be helpful.

The resolution is clearly dependent upon how immutability and omnipotence are defined (see earlier post as necessary for the resolution). The discussion of omnipotence versus immutability is a favorite in some legal circles. I suspect that LH is coming at it from that angle. A good discussion of the matter from a legal perspective is found here. As the reader of this exhaustive discussion will find, how the terms are defined is key to resolving the purported paradox of omnipotence and immutability. Like I said earlier, this is a well-worn subject, that LH has apparently stumbled upon thinking it to be novel.

My short version:

1. God’s perfections and attributes are unchangeable. (immutability)
2. God is able to do all His holy will. (omnipotence)
3. There is no conflict in God's unchangeable perfections and attributes with God's ability to do His Holy will.