ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 2

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Clete,

Thank you so much for your predictable resort to ad hominem as reply . . . it makes me feel more secure in my assessment of your loser position.

And thank you, too, for the neg rep.

It is telling that you must stoop so low and choose such pathetic means to voice your opposing views, in lieu of honest theological retort.

:kiss:

Nang

I have never neg-repped anyone and I never will. Seems basically "wrong" to me on a theology discussion board. Maybe I am old fashioned, but to go through all the effort to neg rep makes it hard for me to rationalize that I am not judging someone. After all, a thumbs up or down was all it took in the coliseum, no?

I like giving pos-reps, thumbs up!, even to those I disagree with.

 

[Paine]

I have never neg-repped anyone and I never will. Seems basically "wrong" to me on a theology discussion board. Maybe I am old fashioned, but to go through all the effort to neg rep makes it hard for me to rationalize that I am not judging someone. After all, a thumbs up or down was all it took in the coliseum, no?

I like giving pos-reps, thumbs up!, even to those I disagree with.

Thank you, sir, for your admirable stand on the matter.

 

[Philetus]

Trumpets are sounding
and bugles are blowing
somewhat confounding
but never all knowing



"Yes, sister Nang, I see that hand."
​

 

[Vaquero45]

I have never neg-repped anyone and I never will. Seems basically "wrong" to me on a theology discussion board. Maybe I am old fashioned, but to go through all the effort to neg rep makes it hard for me to rationalize that I am not judging someone. After all, a thumbs up or down was all it took in the coliseum, no?

I like giving pos-reps, thumbs up!, even to those I disagree with.

"Seems basically wrong to you"? You aren't making a judgement now, are you?!?! Oh, the horror!!!

I'll bet the participants in the coliseum would gladly take a neg rep over the thumb sign that orders death of the fallen, whichever that may be, since it is debated. (Is it up or down that signifies the order to kill the fallen?) This is getting way too wordy, and I'm basically just messing with you except to point out that you can't possibly defend the idea that judging is wrong. The act itself, is a judgement.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

"Seems basically wrong to you"? You aren't making a judgement now, are you?!?! Oh, the horror!!!

I'll bet the participants in the coliseum would gladly take a neg rep over the thumb sign that orders death of the fallen, whichever that may be, since it is debated. (Is it up or down that signifies the order to kill the fallen?) This is getting way too wordy, and I'm basically just messing with you except to point out that you can't possibly defend the idea that judging is wrong. The act itself, is a judgement.

Yeah, I know that to discuss not judging ends up judgmental. I tried to take pains to say that my post is only my own opinion. I don't care one way or another what others do for the rep feature. I was only speaking of what I went through when deciding on how I would use the feature.

 

[Servo]

Thank you, sir, for your admirable stand on the matter.

:baby:

 

[godrulz]

I am commissioned to preach the true gospel of Jesus Christ.

What comes of my witness is entirely in the hands of God; He will either apply the gospel to save you, or He will apply the gospel to condemn you.

At least you will have been warned . . .just as Adam was first warned of the consequences of his unbelief.

The trumpets are sounding . . .

Nang

The gospel is the fragrance of life to those who believe and of death to those who reject it. God wants to give life (abundant and eternal) to all men because of the efficacy of His plan of redemption and impartial love. Double predestination limits God's love and makes His redemption ineffective. There is no secret will of God that desires to damn some that He could save if He decreed it before they are born, but save others arbitrarily.

The gospel can be received or rejected. God's will is not the only factor in the universe. Reconciliation involves two parties. Condemnation is a consequence of unbelief and sin, not the decretal will of God before the person exists.

 

[godrulz]

You might want to move this to our other thread.

Which one? This is relevant, as a footnote, to a thread on Open Theism (this one).

 

[Vaquero45]

Yeah, I know that to discuss not judging ends up judgmental. I tried to take pains to say that my post is only my own opinion. I don't care one way or another what others do for the rep feature. I was only speaking of what I went through when deciding on how I would use the feature.

So the post I answered wasn't really the endorsement of Nang's post that it might have been taken for, and we can all move on... gotcha, thanks!

 

[SOTK]

If a sin nature in us OVer's causes us to wrongly preceive God and time;

and if you SVer's rightly preceive God as perfect and timeless;

then you SVer's must not have a sin nature. :rotfl:

Is an OVer finally admitting that OVer's still believe in having a 'sin nature' after regeneration?

The majority of Calvinists I know believe our 'sin nature' deceased after regeneration. As a Saint and Child of God, I am no longer a 'sinner'. The 'nature' within me is of Christ and He works in me to bear righteous fruit. Am I correct in believing that the majority of OVers feel God must constantly work against the OVer's 'sin nature' to bring you closer to the perfection of Christ?

 

[SOTK]

I've tried this before, but I'll float it once more. Our very perception of time is greatly influenced by our sin nature. We measure time in a way of progression or digression. God is perfect. In other words, our perception of time is based solely on change. This is why it is so important for the OV that God be involved in this process with us, but I believe God simply acts. There is not quantifier for time change except and only as it relates to us. I am convinced that our peceived importance of 'time' is greatly affected by our need for progress and change in our lives. The change needed is so dramatic that it accentuates our need to keep a watch. I do not believe time as measured in quantity is the same way God measures or acts at all. He moves in perfection, from one perfect to another. This is my understanding of God's unchanging nature. He does relate to us , but has no need to move in our perceived increments.

Lonster,

Great post! :up: I've always wanted to articulate this position like you have done but could never quite put it into words the way you have. Good job!

SOTK

 

[godrulz]

Is an OVer finally admitting that OVer's still believe in having a 'sin nature' after regeneration?

The majority of Calvinists I know believe our 'sin nature' deceased after regeneration. As a Saint and Child of God, I am no longer a 'sinner'. The 'nature' within me is of Christ and He works in me to bear righteous fruit. Am I correct in believing that the majority of OVers feel God must constantly work against the OVer's 'sin nature' to bring you closer to the perfection of Christ?

This is not an issue specific to Open Theism. Sanctification issues are more Calvinist vs Arminian. Open Theism deals more with the nature of God and the type of creation He chose to actualize (free will vs determinism). Implications about foreknowledge, omniscience, etc. are the controversy, not soteriological issues (justification, sanctification, glorification).

 

[DFT_Dave]

Your destiny is surely determined, and those who are prepared for destruction will refuse and fail to hear the fair warnings of God, who justly gives all the world warnings of His impending judgments.

However, there are also those who are surely predestined to everlasting life, who will be given ears to hear His voice. . .

Do you hear or not?

Will you heed the warnings of Godly trumpets, or not?

Only God knows . . . I only bring the message . . .

This is your message! My destiny is already determined, so, there is nothing I can do, right? Why do you waste your time telling people there is nothing they can do?

 

[godrulz]

This is your message! My destiny is already determined, so, there is nothing I can do, right? Why do you waste your time telling people there is nothing they can do?

Despite their inconsistent protesting, hyper-Calvinism undermines evangelism and world missions. They say God uses preaching and faith to convert, yet most who hear the message cannot receive it by God's decree?! The NT presents a different picture with the gospel being preached persuasively to all men as the Spirit convinces and convicts all impartially. Some receive, some reject, and others procrastinate (Acts pattern). This is why man, not God, is culpable for sin and damnation.

There is no good reason for God to save some and damn others that He could save if He only wanted to. The impartial love of God and power of the cross makes it possible for whomsoever to come to Him who is life. This is why the Sovereign commands all men everywhere to repent and believe (Acts). It is why He is not willing that any should perish, but all come to repentance (Petrine). It is why He is grieved when they are not willing, despite His overtures of love (gospels).

 

[DFT_Dave]

Originally Posted by Lonster

I've tried this before, but I'll float it once more. Our very perception of time is greatly influenced by our sin nature. We measure time in a way of progression or digression. God is perfect. In other words, our perception of time is based solely on change. This is why it is so important for the OV that God be involved in this process with us, but I believe God simply acts. There is not quantifier for time change except and only as it relates to us. I am convinced that our peceived importance of 'time' is greatly affected by our need for progress and change in our lives. The change needed is so dramatic that it accentuates our need to keep a watch. I do not believe time as measured in quantity is the same way God measures or acts at all. He moves in perfection, from one perfect to another. This is my understanding of God's unchanging nature. He does relate to us , but has no need to move in our perceived increments.

Originally Posted by DFT_Dave

If a sin nature in us OVer's causes us to wrongly preceive God and time;

and if you SVer's rightly preceive God as perfect and timeless;

then you SVer's must not have a sin nature.

Originally Posted by SOTK

Is an OVer finally admitting that OVer's still believe in having a 'sin nature' after regeneration?

The majority of Calvinists I know believe our 'sin nature' deceased after regeneration. As a Saint and Child of God, I am no longer a 'sinner'. The 'nature' within me is of Christ and He works in me to bear righteous fruit. Am I correct in believing that the majority of OVers feel God must constantly work against the OVer's 'sin nature' to bring you closer to the perfection of Christ?

This is not an admission to anything concerning a sinful nature, it is showing how silly Lonster's point is. If we all have a sin nature, as Lonster says, and it dictates what we believe about God and time to be wrong, then logically, no one would see it correctly; But, if Lonster does see it correctly, that means that he does not have a sinful nature to hinder him.

Lonster may reply that he now has a new nature and that is why he sees God as timeless correctly; but then it would imply, those who do not see it that way as yet, do not have that new nature, and according to Nang and Ask Mr. Religion, if we don't get it, it's because God never decreed that we should, and foreknew that we wouldn't.

That this is fair or just depends upon if you've be chosen or not. But, fair or not, according to settled viewers, it's a done deal. So, I ask, why are you here? Why tell the damned, who have a sinful nature, that there is nothing they can do to change their "God decreed from eternity" destiny, when you "foreknow", that God "foreknows" it will not make any sense to them--I mean us.

 

[Nang]

I have never neg-repped anyone and I never will. Seems basically "wrong" to me on a theology discussion board. Maybe I am old fashioned, but to go through all the effort to neg rep makes it hard for me to rationalize that I am not judging someone. After all, a thumbs up or down was all it took in the coliseum, no?

I like giving pos-reps, thumbs up!, even to those I disagree with.

:thumb:


(Signifying agreement!)

 

[Nang]

The gospel is the fragrance of life to those who believe and of death to those who reject it. God wants to give life (abundant and eternal) to all men because of the efficacy of His plan of redemption and impartial love. Double predestination limits God's love and makes His redemption ineffective. There is no secret will of God that desires to damn some that He could save if He decreed it before they are born, but save others arbitrarily.

I think you should start a new thread about double predestination, and we can discuss that doctrine in depth. It does not seem at all relevant to the OV.

The gospel can be received or rejected.

The gospel will be heard or not heard, depending upon the will of God giving ears to hear. (Isaiah 6:9&10)

God's will is not the only factor in the universe.

God's will be done on earth as it is in heaven. God's will is the primary factor and first cause of all things. And the universe was designed to function according to the will of God. When God's will is opposed, things fall apart and cease to function.

Reconciliation involves two parties.

In regard to the gospel, the reconciliation is between Creator and creatures; worked between Father and Son. Sinners do not contribute to their reconciliation with God; that work was done on their behalf by the Man, Jesus Christ. Godly covenant is worked amongst the Godhead, unilaterally.

Condemnation is a consequence of unbelief and sin, not the decretal will of God before the person exists.

Like I said, start a new conversation . . .

Nang

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

So the post I answered wasn't really the endorsement of Nang's post that it might have been taken for, and we can all move on... gotcha, thanks!

It is an endorsement of my position. I see a neg rep the way I have described it earlier. Anyone who holds to my position will no doubt feel the same way. From her post, I suspect Nang sees it as do I. So, yes, I agree with her sentiments. Q.E.D.

 

[Philetus]

Despite their inconsistent protesting, hyper-Calvinism undermines evangelism and world missions. They say God uses preaching and faith to convert, yet most who hear the message cannot receive it by God's decree?! The NT presents a different picture with the gospel being preached persuasively to all men as the Spirit convinces and convicts all impartially. Some receive, some reject, and others procrastinate (Acts pattern). This is why man, not God, is culpable for sin and damnation.

There is no good reason for God to save some and damn others that He could save if He only wanted to. The impartial love of God and power of the cross makes it possible for whomsoever to come to Him who is life. This is why the Sovereign commands all men everywhere to repent and believe (Acts). It is why He is not willing that any should perish, but all come to repentance (Petrine). It is why He is grieved when they are not willing, despite His overtures of love (gospels).

:thumb:

It is why Peter could quote the prophet on Pentecost ... "This is that" ... the out pouring of God's Spirit on ALL flesh.

It’s like Dave's question: Why do they even bother?

The inconsistency in saying that salvation comes only by God's decree that only those he enables to 'hear' actually hear the Gospel and then make the hearing dependent on human preaching is the greatest denial of grace there is.

 

[Nang]

That this is fair or just depends upon if you've be chosen or not. But, fair or not, according to settled viewers, it's a done deal. So, I ask, why are you here? Why tell the damned, who have a sinful nature, that there is nothing they can do to change their "God decreed from eternity" destiny, when you "foreknow", that God "foreknows" it will not make any sense to them--I mean us.[/COLOR]

There are several reasons I am here.

First, Clete needs me to be here, for his conduct needs attention, and he needs to be reminded he is teaching error.

Secondly, Jesus Christ saved my soul, and commissioned that I proclaim the good news of His incarnation, death, resurrection and heavenly mediatorship amongst the entire world.

Thirdly, I have no idea who are "damned" reprobates or who are the elect. Yes, the fate of all is already determined and settled, but I am not privy to the final outcome. I cannot judge your eternal destiny, nor will I declare you reprobate. That is not my role nor my right.

I only testify that I am a regenerated child of God due to the grace of God, and my duty and role is to witnes and proclaim the gospel of Jesus Christ, who sacrificed His life for me.

Whether you are one of the elect, or reprobate is known only by God and yourself. So as far as I am concerned, there is hope that God might grant you saving faith and repentance from sin through the hearing of the Word soundly taught.

However, the gospel of Jesus Christ is wielded like a two-edged sword by the Holy Spirit, provoking an either/or response. Either one will respond in belief and be saved, verifying God's mercy and grace, or one will scoff as an anti-christ, validating Godly condemnation against unbelief.

Throughout the Scriptures, the gospel is very often presented through prophetic warnings of impending judgments from God. God, being fair and just, warns unbelievers of His wrath against sin and corruptions, but amongst all Godly warnings of death and judgment, the good news of salvation through belief in covenant promises of the Redeemer, shines through.

Nang