ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 2

[Nang]

IF God is love and God hopes then His hope is no more misdirected than His love. God loves the lost and hopes they come to repentance. Hope doesn't disappoint. Lovelessness, faithlessness and hopelessness disappoint.

Do you guys know that the Scripture never speaks of God hoping for anything? God's ways are certain, not hopeful, or left up to chance.

Sinners are the ones who live in hope in God's promises.

Hope is a good gift God gives to His people:


"Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost." Romans 15:13

The Triune God is called a "God of hope" because He is the God of promise. Covenant promises give sinners hope. This "hope" is the good news of Jesus Christ; the gospel.

You are moving beyond God's revelations in the Bible, when you say "God hopes men come to repentance."

Read the Scriptures!

They reveal that God "grants" repentance . . .repentance is not left up to chance.

"In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth." II Timothy 2:25

"Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins." Acts 5:31

"When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life." Acts 11:18

Note: Repentance is given to all the elect of God; Jews as well as Gentiles.

You are not on a roll . . .you have slid down a slippery slope and have landed on your faces in serious error. Very, very serious error . . . and I hope God will grant you repentance from your false notions.

Nang

 

[themuzicman]

Do you guys know that the Scripture never speaks of God hoping for anything? God's ways are certain, not hopeful, or left up to chance.

Sinners are the ones who live in hope in God's promises.

Hope is a good gift God gives to His people:


"Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost." Romans 15:13

The Triune God is called a "God of hope" because He is the God of promise. Covenant promises give sinners hope. This "hope" is the good news of Jesus Christ; the gospel.

You are moving beyond God's revelations in the Bible, when you say "God hopes men come to repentance."

Read the Scriptures!

They reveal that God "grants" repentance . . .repentance is not left up to chance.

"In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth." II Timothy 2:25

1 Tim 2:24 And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, 25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, 26 and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.​

This is referring to people who are already saved.

"Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins." Acts 5:31

This is a nation, not individuals.

"When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life." Acts 11:18

Again, a group, not individuals.

Note: Repentance is given to all the elect of God; Jews as well as Gentiles.

You are not on a roll . . .you have slid down a slippery slope and have landed on your faces in serious error. Very, very serious error . . . and I hope God will grant you repentance from your false notions.

Nang

You're on the roll of a lifetime (literally), in that you've yet to show a decent exegesis of Scripture with respect to soteriology, yet. A simple review of your texts reveal obvious problems in the way you interpret them.

Muz

 

[RobE]

There must be issues of justice and freedom for our defeated foe to still have a reign of terror in progress.

What issues?

God could snuff out him and evil, but most of the planet would go down with him.

Why do you think this?

His final judgment is delayed.

For what reason?

He is a defeated foe,

True.

but still has limited ability to oppose God and His people (warfare).

What ability to oppose God? (This is the topic question)

Satan and evil do not have a good purpose,

Then why does God allow them to continue?

...but it is part of the cosmic warfare that is not finalized yet.

"cosmic warfare"? "not finalized"? I think that's the dispute here.

Issues of freedom must be factored in. God is omnipotent and Satan is finite. Just because man rejects God's will (even Christians do) in certain ways does not make God helpless.

The point is that God must allow evil to continue for some purpose because He's very capable of stopping it.

A model of raw power and meticulous control is flawed, so your questions really are not 'good' questions for any view.

Well why don't you answer the question of why God allows evil to continue according to the view of your theology. My answer is that God simply has some good purpose for doing so. That evil has a role to play in the development of the future which God has forseen. You know - don't remove the weeds so the wheat doesn't get hurt before the proper time, etc.....

Anyhow, meticulous control isn't part of my model even though awesome raw power is(and Jesus Christ has plenty of that! )

 

[Nang]

1 Tim 2:24 And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, 25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, 26 and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.​

This is referring to people who are already saved.



This is a nation, not individuals.



Again, a group, not individuals.

Make up your mind. Does God give repentance to "people" or only to nations and groups?

If God gave repentance to the nation of Israel, why didn't the nation of Israel as a whole, repent?

If God gives repentance to Gentiles as a racial "group," then you are advocating "Universalism."

You're on the roll of a lifetime (literally), in that you've yet to show a decent exegesis of Scripture with respect to soteriology, yet. A simple review of your texts reveal obvious problems in the way you interpret them.

Ahah! You are reviewing all my posts again, eh Muz?

GOOD!

 

[themuzicman]

Make up your mind. Does God give repentance to "people" or only to nations and groups?

What are you talking about? The 2 Timothy verse is about Christians turning from wrong beliefs, and this is enabling them to repent.

If God gave repentance to the nation of Israel, why didn't the nation of Israel as a whole, repent?

If God gives repentance to Gentiles as a racial "group," then you are advocating "Universalism."

Unless, of course, you exegete properly and find that granting only makes it possible, and doesn't force it upon them.

Ahah! You are reviewing all my posts again, eh Muz?

GOOD!

Someone has to clean up after you make a mess.

Muz

 

[godrulz]

Well why don't you answer the question of why God allows evil to continue according to the view of your theology. My answer is that God simply has some good purpose for doing so. T

That is my answer: God has a purpose to allow evil to continue.

As Pilate said to Jesus in J.C. Superstar: "That is NOT an ans-wer!"

 

[themuzicman]

Evil is the consequence of man's sin. God's just nature demands that mankind endure the consequences of sin. That's not to say that each person deserves the evil that is visited upon them, but corporately, mankind does.

That's why evil continues. It doesn't have a purpose from God's perspective, per se. It's simply a natural consequence of disobeying God.

Muz

 

[lee_merrill]

Unless, of course, you exegete properly and find that granting only makes it possible, and doesn't force it upon them.

That would then be granting the ability to repent, but God grants repentance. Editing the text is not good exegesis.

And yes, God has a purpose even in evil, "God is not cleaning up after the devil" (Joni).

Gen. 50:20 "And as for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive."

"The text says, 'You meant evil against me.' Evil is a feminine singular noun. Then it says, 'God meant it for good.' The word 'it' is a feminine singular suffix that can only agree with the antecedent feminine singular noun, 'evil.' And the verb 'meant' is the same past tense in both cases. You meant evil against me in the past, as you were doing it. And God meant that very evil, not as evil, but as good in the past as you were doing it. And to make this perfectly clear, Ps. 105:17 says about Joseph's coming to Egypt, '[God] sent a man before them, Joseph, who was sold as a slave.' God sent him. God did not find him there owing to evil choices, and then try to make something good come of it. Therefore this text stands as a kind of paradigm for how to understand the evil will of man within the sovereign will of God." (John Piper)

Blessings,
Lee

 

[RobE]

Evil is the consequence of man's sin. God's just nature demands that mankind endure the consequences of sin. That's not to say that each person deserves the evil that is visited upon them, but corporately, mankind does.

That's why evil continues. It doesn't have a purpose from God's perspective, per se. It's simply a natural consequence of disobeying God.

Muz

Then why doesn't God eliminate it according the the o.v. if it serves no purpose in what He is trying to achieve?

That is my answer: God has a purpose to allow evil to continue.

As Pilate said to Jesus in J.C. Superstar: "That is NOT an ans-wer!"

Exactly what purpose if God hasn't the ability to know the outcomes will be good?

 

[lee_merrill]

Then why doesn't God eliminate it according the the o.v. if it serves no purpose in what He is trying to achieve?

One splendid question, this...

 

[Clete]

One splendid question, this...

It's a stupid question Lee. Very stupid.

Especially in light of the fact that he isn't asking it honestly, nor is he interested in the answer.

Anyone who would ask that question has no understand of who God is, what love is, why God created us, or on what basis we can have a relationship with the Living God, nor why He would be interested in such a relationship in the first place.

OR...

They do understand those things and are being intentionally dishonest in their vain attempts to discredit the Open View by any means that pops into their heads regardless of its veracity or substance.

Either way, the question does not deserve a response from anyone who calls themselves a Christian as such a response would only give credence to fools and small minded idiots who don't have a fat clue about what they're shoot their mouth off about. It deserves to either be ridiculed or completely ignored. I recommend the latter.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Nang]

Then why doesn't God eliminate it according the the o.v. if it serves no purpose in what He is trying to achieve?

Excellent question!


Nang

 

[Clete]

Excellent question!


Nang

I rest my case.

 

[Nang]

I rest my case.

:crackup:

Couldn't resist your challenge, Clete!

Seriously, RobE asks a very valid question. You should have some kind of answer to present from the OT camp. Is this really something none of you have ever considered?

What exactly is the formal OVT theodicy?

Nang

 

[Clete]

:crackup:

Couldn't resist your challenge, Clete!

Seriously, RobE asks a very valid question. You should have some kind of answer to present from the OT camp. Is this really something none of you have ever considered?

What exactly is the formal OVT theodicy?

Nang

There is no problem of evil in the Open View. Think it through Nang. I know you sometimes let your emotions outrun your ability to think clearly (who doesn't?) but I also know that you are not stupid and can think this through on your own. Don't make arguments that you know to be invalid or ridiculously weak. Do your fellow Settled Viewers a favor and think through what people say before just glibly agreeing with everything anyone on your side of this particular fence says. THINK IT THROUGH!!!

 

[Nang]

There is no problem of evil in the Open View. Think it through Nang. I know you sometimes let your emotions outrun your ability to think clearly (who doesn't?) but I also know that you are not stupid and can think this through on your own. Don't make arguments that you know to be invalid or ridiculously weak. Do your fellow Settled Viewers a favor and think through what people say before just glibly agreeing with everything anyone on your side of this particular fence says. THINK IT THROUGH!!!

Can't . . .I just can't begin to understand why God would permit evil to continue, unless He has a purpose.

And of course, if God has a purpose, God has a plan.

And if God has a plan, God has ordained a result.

So, where does the Christian go to find out the results, ordained by God?

To the Bible to seek out the promises of God.

And sure enough, God has promised a kingdom where there will be no more darkness, night, sorrow or evil existant. Satan, Death, and Hades will be eliminated in the lake of fire. All those who remain unjustified and wicked will exist outside the new heavens and new earth.

But what do you OT'ers believe, while denying God works through promises, purposes, plans; thereby producing sure results? What is your explanation regarding God dealing with evil?

Why do you seem so reluctant to discuss the OVT theodicy? (If they have a formal teaching on the subject, that is.)

Nang

 

[Clete]

You'll just have to live with your ignorance. I'm not casting this particular pearl; not before the likes of RobE.

 

[RobE]

Thanks Clete

Thanks Clete

You'll just have to live with your ignorance. I'm not casting this particular pearl; not before the likes of RobE.

Oh, stop it! You're going to make me blush....

:angel:

 

[Lon]

1 Tim 2:24 And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, 25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, 26 and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.​

This is referring to people who are already saved.



This is a nation, not individuals.



Again, a group, not individuals.



You're on the roll of a lifetime (literally), in that you've yet to show a decent exegesis of Scripture with respect to soteriology, yet. A simple review of your texts reveal obvious problems in the way you interpret them.

Muz

Rabbit trail. So what if it is corporate or individual? Weren't they made up of individuals? This doesn't speak to anything, maybe good diversion to avoid the subject. <dunno> Your post makes no sense to me. It doesn't directly address anything. A little help or elucidation please.

 

[Lon]

You'll just have to live with your ignorance. I'm not casting this particular pearl; not before the likes of RobE.

The answer differs between us. OV sees this differently. In order for an answer to come to mind, one would 'need' an OV mindset or we are just going to characterize your answer. You don't 'have' to answer, but to avoid mischaracterization or seeing blatant holes in 'your' logic, you'll have to answer or be left wanting and satisfied with perhaps a characterization or possible biased view against OV and its limitations.

Is it a dumb question? Yep, to you. From a nonOV position it helps clarify how the OV stands. To negate answering simply confirms what is suspect. It IS a good clarifying question for understanding OV doctrine.

Lon