ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 2

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Ask Mr. Religion

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Forgive me for butting in here, but I need clarification.

Your premise is: Through "one Man's" ("Christ," I assume) righteous act, men are justified and declared righteous.

Your conclusion is: Righteousness is "tied directly to an action," which was a decision made "within the Spirit of the Living God."

You have switched from accrediting the Son of God with righteousness, to a decision made by God the Holy Spirit, have you not?

What was the specific "righteous act" that justified sinners? When was it decided, and who performed it?

Nang
Indeed.

Like Mystery stated earlier: "God does what He is, not is what he does."

In other words:
"What God is like should be used to explain what God is doing in the Scriptures." :)
 

Mystery

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Clete, I will try and do a better job, after I give it some more thought.


:think:




:think:




:think:


Okay, I'm done thinking.


The only other thing I can think of is why does ice make your drink cold?

Sorry, but I have no idea how what I have said does not answer your question. Perhaps you can find someone who can speak to me at my intellectual level.
 

Clete

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Clete, I will try and do a better job, after I give it some more thought.


:think:




:think:




:think:


Okay, I'm done thinking.


The only other thing I can think of is why does ice make your drink cold?

Sorry, but I have no idea how what I have said does not answer your question. Perhaps you can find someone who can speak to me at my intellectual level.
Ice doesn't actually make your drink cold, your drink makes the ice warm. The heat in your drink excites the molecules of H2O in the ice until equilibrium is reached bringing the temperature of the whole system down to some point between the temperature of the ice and the beginning temperature of the drink thus effectively making your drink colder.

I understand that you weren't really looking for a specific answer to that question but the answer demonstrates the point I am trying to make. That point being that there is in fact an answer. The ice does something (i.e. absorbs heat) which results in your drink becoming colder than it was to begin with.

Now here's the important follow up question. Does the ice deserve praise for having made your drink colder? Should we be thankful to the ice itself for having performed its job so predictably? No, right? The frozen water didn't decide to make your drink colder, it just happened that way because of the laws of chemistry. There was no virtue in the ice's "action" because it was not a choice but simply an unavoidable results of its nature. To extend your analogy, your position turns God into a block of ice! God does what He does, not because He chose to do so but because it was an unavoidable result of His nature thus there is no virtue in such a God's actions or His nature any more than there is in the fact that ice is cold and sugar is sweet and that put together they make for a really great glass of tea.

Resting in Him,
Clete
 

Nathon Detroit

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Ice doesn't actually make your drink cold, your drink makes the ice warm. The heat in your drink excites the molecules of H2O in the ice until equilibrium is reached bringing the temperature of the whole system down to some point between the temperature of the ice and the beginning temperature of the drink thus effectively making your drink colder.

I understand that you weren't really looking for a specific answer to that question but the answer demonstrates the point I am trying to make. That point being that there is in fact an answer. The ice does something (i.e. absorbs heat) which results in your drink becoming colder than it was to begin with.

Now here's the important follow up question. Does the ice deserve praise for having made your drink colder? Should we be thankful to the ice itself for having performed its job so predictably? No, right? The frozen water didn't decide to make your drink colder, it just happened that way because of the laws of chemistry. There was no virtue in the ice's "action" because it was not a choice but simply an unavoidable results of its nature. To extend your analogy, your position turns God into a block of ice! God does what He does, not because He chose to do so but because it was an unavoidable result of His nature thus there is no virtue in such a God's actions or His nature any more than there is in the fact that ice is cold and sugar is sweet and that put together they make for a really great glass of tea.

Resting in Him,
Clete
Well said!!!

POTD :first:
 

Mystery

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Clete said:
Ice doesn't actually make your drink cold, your drink makes the ice warm.
Thanks for the physics lesson or whatever mode of science that would be.

The ice does something (i.e. absorbs heat) which results in your drink becoming colder than it was to begin with.
So the ice is under the control of the drink? Gotcha! Thanks.

Now here's the important follow up question. Does the ice deserve praise for having made your drink colder?
According to you, it would be the drink that deserves the praise. I see that now.

There was no virtue in the ice's "action" because it was not a choice but simply an unavoidable results of its nature.
You're right Clete, the ice represents man, and the drink represents God. I just didn't realize at first that it was actually the drink that causes the ice to glorify the drink.
To extend your analogy, your position turns God into a block of ice!
Okay, you can stop now. I had it backwards. God would be the drink, and I would be the ice.

God does what He does, not because He chose to do so but because it was an unavoidable result of His nature thus there is no virtue in such a God's actions or His nature
On the contrary, God is glorified by His nature. God is good, not because He does good, but because He is good.

Thanks for clearing it up!
 

Nang

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Thanks for the physics lesson or whatever mode of science that would be.

So the ice is under the control of the drink? Gotcha! Thanks.

According to you, it would be the drink that deserves the praise. I see that now.

You're right Clete, the ice represents man, and the drink represents God. I just didn't realize at first that it was actually the drink that causes the ice to glorify the drink. Okay, you can stop now. I had it backwards. God would be the drink, and I would be the ice.


On the contrary, God is glorified by His nature. God is good, not because He does good, but because He is good.

Thanks for clearing it up!

Heh. . .

Clint's epistemology is based on "mode" rather than "substance."

Who is surprised?

Nang
(the "ignored")
 

Mystery

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We need a smilie showing something going over someones head.
You couldn't use it now. I simply do not accept Clete's (and I guess your :sigh: ) concept of God.

God is not static. He is always interacting and creating and loving etc. But, all that He does is good, because He cannot do otherwise.

Calvinists (and I guess Open Theists) both miss the boat when it comes to understanding "free will".

God is free to do anything that is consistent with His nature, and He cannot do that which is contrary to His nature. He does not have a choice to do evil.

I'll say more later.
 

Nathon Detroit

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God is not static.
We agree!

He is always interacting and creating and loving etc. But, all that He does is good, because He cannot do otherwise.
I could have sworn you just said... "God is not static." :think:

Calvinists (and I guess Open Theists) both miss the boat when it comes to understanding "free will".
Or, perhaps you miss the boat? :idunno:

God is free to do anything that is consistent with His nature, and He cannot do that which is contrary to His nature. He does not have a choice to do evil.
Mystery, I will admit this is a tough topic, I have heard OV'ers make decent cases on both sides of the fence.
 

Nang

TOL Subscriber
Spare us the junior high school girl act will ya?

If you have nothing more to add, please go away.

What????

You have never read any theological discussions regarding "mode" versus "essence" (i.e. "substance")?"

My, my . . .who is still in junior high?

Nang
 

Mystery

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Mystery, I will admit this is a tough topic, I have heard OV'ers make decent cases on both sides of the fence.
Yes it is, and not worth any of us getting upset about, right?

We can dicuss it and maybe we can both learn something.

I know I have already. ;)
 

godrulz

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Was it Aquinas or Anselm or somebody influenced by Greek philosophy that makes a big deal about being? We should not confuse metaphysics with morals (technical categories for personal beings; substance vs volition). This is a debated area of theology/philosophy, so we should be informed vs dogmatic.

God's attributes are not in the same category. By way of metaphysics (substance/essence/being/nature), God is uncreated triune spirit/Creator. He does not chose these things. They are His uncreated being, who He is by nature. He is eternal, omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent (we vary in our understanding of these things). We are NOT like God in these ways. These are His unique absolutes of wonder.

God is also personal. He has will, intellect, and emotions (vs impersonal). We are in the personal image of God and can also think, act, feel.

God is spiritual/moral (not to be confused with morality). He is righteous, good, loving, faithful, merciful, just, holy, etc. These are volitional (Lex Rex vs Rex Lex ...God does not make up arbitrary laws because He has the power to; He submits to a law of love, right, good, based on His character/being). We can be like God in personal and moral ways because we are in the image of God in this sense (but not in an ontological sense...we are creatures, not uncreated Creator). We can love. We can be faithful. Our choices form our nature, not vice versa.

God is dynamic, not static. Why the aversion to Him being the ultimate free moral (vs immoral) agent with choices, not just being?

Don't even get me going on classical views of immutability, impassibility, aseity, simplicity that are not always biblical or logical.
 

Mystery

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We should not confuse metaphysics with morals (technical categories for personal beings; substance vs volition).
Why do you keep saying that? Are you trying to convince yourself to stop doing it?

He has will.
So? He still cannot do that which is contrary to His nature. God cannot sin (even though I'm sure you think He can).

God is spiritual/moral (not to be confused with morality).
God is not moral. God cannot choose to be immoral.

He is righteous, good, loving, faithful, merciful, just, holy, etc. These are volitional
Heresy.
(Lex Rex vs Rex Lex ...God does not make up arbitrary laws because He has the power to; He submits to a law of love, right, good, based on His character/being).
God does not "submit" to anything. Your god is a devil.

We can be like God in personal and moral ways because we are in the image of God in this sense (but not in an ontological sense...we are creatures, not uncreated Creator).
Your god is the serpent in the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
 

Nathon Detroit

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Heresy. God does not "submit" to anything. Your god is a devil.

Your god is the serpent in the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
There is simply no reason for this kind of talk.

We should be able to have a conversation without resorting to these tactics.
 

Mystery

New member
There is simply no reason for this kind of talk.

We should be able to have a conversation without resorting to these tactics.
It was nothing personal. It was based on what he said about God. He described a god that is in submission to something outside himself. That is not the God of the bible. It was a rebuke, and it was just.


He said that we can be like God by simply being moral. That is exactly what the serpent said to Adam and Eve. You can be like God by what you do.

If I am wrong about this, then I will apologize.
 
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