ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 1

[RobE]

Reply to Godrulz

Reply to Godrulz

"In the beginning was the Word..." (Jn. 1:1).

The imperfect tense shows the preexistence of the word before creation (cf. "Before Abraham was, I am." in John 8:58).

The Word is the one who became flesh in the person of the Lord Jesus Christ.

The preexistent Christ appeared as theophanies or the Angel of the Lord in the OT.

The Word existing with the Father in eternity does not mean that the formulated plan was a foregone conclusion to be implemented until the actuality of the Fall. He was slain centuries later, not trillions of years ago. Whether He would actually come and die or not does not affect His preexistence.

Yet Open Theism says the incarnation was a substantial change for God. How could He pre-exist, and then exist again? Was it a real change? What is real change? Is the young girl a different person than the old woman? Did she change in essence, identity, or in anyway other than in learning? Does God learn or do you think He's smarter than you now? These are questions the O.V. brings to my mind?

BTW, You still haven't answered my question about repentance refuting foreknowledge. Have you ever planned to do something and then when you did it you were sorry?

Rob

 

[RobE]

Quick note to Philetus.....

And how can we?
No one come to the Father except through the Son. And no one comes unless he is drawn by the Spirit, the Father and the Son. They are one. Jesus said, “If I be lifted up ….”

I was wondering if you intended to answer my last post towards you. You asked me a specific question and I gave you a direct answer. I'm sorry if my posts seem disrespectful to you, but I've already discussed many of these things with Godrulz, Clete, etc..... My past discussions have covered many things over and over and over. Many questions go unanswered or incompletely answered. My follow up questions yield the same results. The circular logic which the O.V. uses to defeat foreknowledge is never ending because when a weakness is found it's not acknowledged.

Certainly you see the extent Clete and the others will make me go through just to agree to the Webster's definition of the word 'predict'. And that's just a word! Paqe after page after page. I guess I get frustrated. Onwards......

Anyway, does the above verse apply towards Adam or just those after Christ or just those that Christ knew? Does the Open View teach that there is a way to the Father other than Christ?

Rob

 

[mtims540]

---If you find your self setting on a bomb, do you have a choice to move or die? And what is that choice and the power of that choice?? -- Yes, you can choose to die, but will you?? God knows, is that making your choice for you???
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--------------------Paul---
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Letsargue: If you find your self setting on a bomb, do you have a choice to move or die?

mtims540: Yes is my short answer, maybe is my long answer (not knowing the full circumstance one might imagine), and no if it’s God’s will to hold me there till it explodes and then I’m creme pie . . . desert anyone? :firechyld

Letsargue: And what is that choice and the power of that choice??

mtims540: I believe the power of that choice is God given, not self obtained. And what is that choice (to choose)?, Again, God given . . .

Letsargue: God knows, is that making your choice for you???

mtims540: No is my easy answer, nevertheless it's more complex for me than that, the bomb and me are a part of an experiment if you will and my will did not create the experiment of creation where bombs exist, I have been put in the place of making such choices, I had no say (free will) in the matter, I have been subjected to a temporary tragedy . . .

GOOD NEWS: Death is the final enemy to be conquered!!! or is that conjured??? :aikido:

 

[Letsargue]

Could Adam have been perfect in himself and continued into Heaven of Adam's own accord? Basically, did Adam need Christ?

Rob

---All things, and Adam and Eve, were perfict, for 70 years, before "They" Yielded to the Serpent. Adam fulfilled his Curse, Satan fulfilled his curse, and woman fulfilled her place in the family in the fulfillment of the Bride of Christ, the Church. --- All said, and done.
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--------------Paul---
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[mtims540]

---I don’t think God is concerned with whether or not he has given anyone, Total free will. What’s wrong with a little or a lot of persuasion??? – The Hornets did well for Joshua, the Canaanites could have stayed and fought through the hornets and lost also. They were going to lose and lost.
---There is some to be said on both sides.
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-----------------Paul---
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Yeah, I think God’s will might well be involved in a lot more than my carnal mind can delight in, so I make up pretty little story to wish it away . . .

I think to be on God’s side is the surrender of my will’s freedom, which in turn ‘freeze :denver: me . . .

 

[Letsargue]

Letsargue: If you find your self setting on a bomb, do you have a choice to move or die?

mtims540: Yes is my short answer, maybe is my long answer (not knowing the full circumstance one might imagine), and no if it’s God’s will to hold me there till it explodes and then I’m creme pie . . . desert anyone? :firechyld

Letsargue: And what is that choice and the power of that choice??

mtims540: I believe the power of that choice is God given, not self obtained. And what is that choice (to choose)?, Again, God given . . .

Letsargue: God knows, is that making your choice for you???

mtims540: No is my easy answer, nevertheless it's more complex for me than that, the bomb and me are a part of an experiment if you will and my will did not create the experiment of creation where bombs exist, I have been put in the place of making such choices, I had no say (free will) in the matter, I have been subjected to a temporary tragedy . . .

GOOD NEWS: Death is the final enemy to be conquered!!! or is that conjured??? :aikido:

---Knowledge of the Bomb, -- is the power of your choice, not God, or the Bomb. Knowledge, Your knowledge, if you're a fool, you'll die, right?? -- If you don't believe in the Bomb.
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----------------Paul---
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[mtims540]

God granted you some powers and abilities. What makes you think you are not free to choose how to use them.

I believe I am free to choose what or with what power God has granted me :banana: , that God’s will in this equation is the freedom of ability that I have, Granted by the one and only true free will . . . the owner of who I am.

 

[mtims540]

---Knowledge of the Bomb, -- is the power of your choice, not God, or the Bomb. Knowledge, Your knowledge, if you're a fool, you'll die, right?? -- If you don't believe in the Bomb.
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----------------Paul---
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I agree, knowledge of the tragedy :shocked: is the the most important thing in my making a choice, which I am free to do,

however, I also believe if God wanted me dead, His choice would trump mine . . . the power of his knowledge is greater. :bow:

 

[Letsargue]

I agree, knowledge of the tragedy :shocked: is the the most important thing in my making a choice, which I am free to do,

however, I also believe if God wanted me dead, His choice would trump mine . . . the power of his knowledge is greater. :bow:

---There (((is))) that big word that cancels a statement, ---(((( IF )))). NO IF. You can -IF- anything anyhow, in order the change the statement.
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------------------Paul---
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[mtims540]

---There (((is))) that big word that cancels a statement, ---(((( IF )))). NO IF. You can -IF- anything anyhow, in order the change the statement.
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------------------Paul---
*

Without the IF word,

God and His will, will always in my mind overrule any other will any time He desires . . . :thumb:

 

[godrulz]

Could Adam have been perfect in himself and continued into Heaven of Adam's own accord? Basically, did Adam need Christ?

Rob

This is a hypothetical, speculative question since the Fall did happen triggering the plan of redemption. If Adam and his progeny would have continued in relationship with God, would Christ have needed to die to redeem them? Adam depended on God for life abundant and eternal. Was Adam destined for heaven, or was the intention to live in paradise earth forever? There is a difference between fallen man needing a Savior, and God's 'very good' creation needing radical redemption if it persisted in a 'very good' state.

Adam would have needed or depended on Christ for his very life and eternal perseverance, even if he did not fall so far and hard.

Perhaps someone else could better answer you.

 

[godrulz]

Yet Open Theism says the incarnation was a substantial change for God. How could He pre-exist, and then exist again? Was it a real change? What is real change? Is the young girl a different person than the old woman? Did she change in essence, identity, or in anyway other than in learning? Does God learn or do you think He's smarter than you now? These are questions the O.V. brings to my mind?

BTW, You still haven't answered my question about repentance refuting foreknowledge. Have you ever planned to do something and then when you did it you were sorry?

Rob

The incarnation is a metaphysical change in the being of God since the Word was not always flesh. The Word 'became' flesh and tabernacled among us for awhile. This illustrates change vs strong, absolute immutability. It is not a change in the identity or character of God or the Word. It is a change in the nature of the Word. The Word was God in eternity. At some point in space-time history, the same Word became the God-man, one person with two natures (that He did not have in eternity).

The woman analogy is not parallel to the unique incarnation/kenosis. Phil. 2 also shows the relationship between His preexistent 'form of God' and His new 'form of man' as a suffering servant (without ceasing to be God= continuity, but change). This is not disputed, even by classical theists.

God, unlike us, knows the past and present exhaustively. He knows the future as possible vs actual. In a sense, He does acquire new knowledge as new contingencies become certainties. He is always omniscient since He correctly knows reality as it is and knows all that is possibly knowable (some things are inherently not knowable until they come into existence as possible objects of knowledge).

I planned to to good or not sin, but at times I failed to follow through on the good, or did the bad against better judgment. My intentions and knowledge changed at the point of changed intentions or actual choice. What bearing does this have on the academic question of whether it is logical for God to have exhaustive foreknowledge of future free will contingencies. It neither supports or refutes either position. What is your point? (I have tried to answer before, but you do not like my answers I guess).

 

[godrulz]

Quick note to Philetus.....



Anyway, does the above verse apply towards Adam or just those after Christ or just those that Christ knew? Does the Open View teach that there is a way to the Father other than Christ?

Rob

The context is Christ revealing His redemptive plan. It is not the creation mandate, like marriage, from Gen. 1; 2. The plan was not implemented until Gen. 3 and then unfolds for the rest of the Bible.

If an Open Theist speculates on universalism or another way to the Father, they are wrong. Some suggest that the God that walked in the garden with Adam was the pre-incarnate Christ, a theophany. Since Christ is God, it is a moot point. Adam depended on the Father and Christ, who preexisted eternally before creation.

I think I read an open theists suggest that the Word would have incarnated regardless of whether man fell or not. God could become a man without dying if redemption was not necessary.

 

[godrulz]

---All things, and Adam and Eve, were perfict, for 70 years, before "They" Yielded to the Serpent. Adam fulfilled his Curse, Satan fulfilled his curse, and woman fulfilled her place in the family in the fulfillment of the Bride of Christ, the Church. --- All said, and done.
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--------------Paul---
*

Huh?

 

[mtims540]

Could Adam have been perfect in himself and continued into Heaven of Adam's own accord? Basically, did Adam need Christ?

Rob

godrulz: Perhaps someone else could better answer you.

This works for me :wave: : I think Adam needed Christ for the very life he had.

And now for the first question, do I actually think Adam was created perfect or God just saw Adam as a good created creature, there is a difference?

So to cut to the chase, I see God as having set the fall of Adam up . . . which means I do not think Adam was all that perfect in the first place, so uh, where do we go from here . . .

 

[godrulz]

This works for me :wave: : I think Adam needed Christ for the very life he had.

And now for the first question, do I actually think Adam was created perfect or God just saw Adam as a good created creature, there is a difference?

So to cut to the chase, I see God as having set the fall of Adam up . . . which means I do not think Adam was all that perfect in the first place, so uh, where do we go from here . . .

God created the conditions for the possibility of a Fall. He set parameters to make it unlikely. Mormons teach that the Fall was part of man's probation and necessary for spirit children to get bodies. God is not responsible for evil nor the Fall. He did not desire nor intend it. Man misused God's gift of choice. Man alone is culpable for this preventable travesty. Having ability to chose is perfection as opposed to being a robot.

 

[mtims540]

God created the conditions for the possibility of a Fall. He set parameters to make it unlikely. Mormons teach that the Fall was part of man's probation and necessary for spirit children to get bodies. God is not responsible for evil nor the Fall. He did not desire nor intend it. Man misused God's gift of choice. Man alone is culpable for this preventable travesty. Having ability to chose is perfection as opposed to being a robot.

"For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies" (Mat. 15:19).

"And when the woman saw [in her heart] that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eye [in her heart], and a tree to be desired [in her heart] to make one wise [an idol of the heart], she took [’For out of the heart proceed ... thefts...’] of the fruit thereof, and did eat" (Gen. 3:6).

I notice the last phrase "...and did eat"! Was it the "eating" of the fruit that made her a sinner -- I believe she had ALREADY sinned by looking, lusting, and fantasizing about her potential wisdom. It was AFTER she sinned that she "did eat." :cloud9:

 

[mtims540]

godrulz: . . . God is not responsible for evil nor the Fall . . .

mtims540: I believe God never sins or misses the mark, but He does bring evil or calamity and that He also uses it as an essential part of His plan.

Therefore, who is responsible for sin, evil and death entering humanity, and further still, the whole of creation?

Well as Creator of the earth and humanity, God is the Owner, I think He is therefore responsible for all of it!

Death is the last enemy to be conquered, of course. :banned:

 

[godrulz]

godrulz: . . . God is not responsible for evil nor the Fall . . .

mtims540: I believe God never sins or misses the mark, but He does bring evil or calamity and that He also uses it as an essential part of His plan.

Therefore, who is responsible for sin, evil and death entering humanity, and further still, the whole of creation?

Well as Creator of the earth and humanity, God is the Owner, I think He is therefore responsible for all of it!

Death is the last enemy to be conquered, of course. :banned:

God is responsible for the type of creation He chose. He is not responsible for our abuse of His gift of free will. Sin originates in our wills and hearts, not the compulsion or desire of God.

 

[Letsargue]

Without the IF word,

God and His will, will always in my mind overrule any other will any time He desires . . . :thumb:

---AAAH, very good. -- Does that mean that you're going to take the Word, just as it is, no matter how stupid it seems???? - That's the trick that no one can do.
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----------------Paul---
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