SeekingAnswers,
Thank you so much for your post. In many parts it did my heart and mind much good. But, I have to ask: what part of “I dumped Cobb and Process Theology after only about 12 pages” did you not understand? Open Theism is not process theology. There have been many extremes, (even you admitted that Augustine went further than he should have) so to admit that and try to correct the ‘over dose’ on immutability, is not to besmirch the character of God. God is sovereign, but not a micromanager.
I agree that there have been many severe and bizarre conjurings of theologies built on half truths. Process Theology didn’t even have half truths, maybe only fifth truths, so it didn’t even get off the ground. The more truth it seems, the more difficult it is to detect error. But even the best of theologies need revision. And, I believe that Augustinian views of starting with absolute sovereignty and meticulous control, is among those that need modifying. It in particular has corrupted our reading of scripture and invaded every aspect of Christian living at least in the west. You cannot have a discussion with even the most nominal of ‘Christians’ with out its imposition on every topic. And if the church today is not in need of reforming then both Luther and Calvin owe the Pope an apology.
In spite of all the deviant expressions of love out there in a deceived and lost world, it is still accurate to say, “God is love.”
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philetus
I can see how you may have thought I was pushing the process theology position. There are similarities, though I am no expert on process theology. I think I read about a dozen pages of Cobb back when the ecumenical movement was hot before dismissing it all together. Unity at the expense of a God ‘who can’ is not the answer. A God who is ontologically needy is a god who is unable to take risks because he is not responsible for creating the world or establishing its conditions. He does not have the ability to make things other than they are.
I trust that you understood my quote above as NOT in agreement WITH Process Theology! I don’t understand the monads and windows thing. I don’t need to. It is not something that I come into contact with as I work with people who are disadvantaged and marginalized. (Good words even if process theologians use them.) I pastor about 300 non churched people; people who are wrongly convinced that neither God nor the church loves or cares about them. Poor people. Lost people. Homeless, hungry, addicted people. Men and women created in the image of God, yet they say, “God has already decided who will be saved and who won’t be saved so it doesn’t make any difference what I believe.” Where in the world did they get such a notion? Trust me: I am not trying to put a Christian spin on Monads.
Nor, am I trying to clean up the Cobb.
I do my work in the alley, not at the altar. I preach in the parking lot rather than a pulpit. I serve on the sidewalk and rarely go into a sanctuary.
God is not just one who has progressed along with humanity. I don’t even claim that humanity has progressed all that much. Sure there is ‘progress’: your reading this aren’t you? Word processing and internet is great. Beats snail mail. Ever heard of aspirin? Aspirin is progress. (Some would even argue that asphalt is progress, but I doubt it.) Maybe if Augistine had had asprin we wouldn’t be having this headache of a discussion. (FLAG) But, to suggest that the Open View is about God becoming is just wrong. The only issue I would take with your post is at the point of meticulous control. Progress is only defined within the context of a fallen world. Something Cobb overlooked and then over worked his view by applying it to God. But outside the context of fallen, progress has no meaning. God is not in process. Creation still is.
It (all of it) groans, complains and struggles in anticipation of the day of Christ. It strives to save itself by improving its self, but cannot. Getting food to a starving village is an improvement. But it is only progress within the context of a world in which there is still hunger. And there are still hungry people. I help feed three hundred of them each and every week.
The food pantry is not a substitute for God. It is only a means to an end. It provides servants with an opportunity to tell people that God is for them, not against them. When they accept the gift of food they do not become the benefactors. They remain the beneficiaries. The food gets their attention; The Bread of Life satisfies their groaning. Accepting the gift of life does not make us the gift giver. Refusing the gift dose not make the gift-giver inconsistent or selfish or less generous. Refusing the gift only leaves the impoverished in want. It does not impoverish the one who offers. Resisting the gift of grace does not make the one offering it less gracious anymore than suggesting that to accept it makes the receiver responsible for the gift; something that the Calvinists get from sovereignty as defined by meticulous control. It is a gross exaggeration that needs to be addressed, because it is inconsistent with the view of God that we get in scripture and from the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. More than cry, it makes me sick for it stands in the way of God’s great offer of salvation. The wretched of the earth need to know that God is on their side; always has been and always will be, even if they reject his offer. He is for us, not against us. He does not change. We must!
In my work in Haiti, I have also observed the distortion and ill affects of the system that keeps people enslaved. It is a false kingdom and we are all implicated in the plight of our neighbor. Even there, after decades of mission work, many are forced to choose between Luther and Calvin rather than between God in Christ and death. God help us to once again extend the offer of God’s great salvation hospitality. Teaching people to make decisions based on the knowledge of good and evil is not the answer anymore than hanging the Ten Commandments in our court rooms will make this a Christian nation. Shock and awe don’t work. In Christ we are no longer even to make our own decisions. As Christians we are to do what our Master tells us to do; deferring to His will even as he deferred to the will of His Father. That is the Kingdom of God. Anything less is, well just corn on the Cobb.
The freedom of will to choose is not unlimited will. Unlimited freedom is a farce. The freedom to choose life or death in Christ is a gift of grace. If the decision is predetermined it is no choice at all. If Grace cost us anything it is not grace. To put any price on grace from a human perspective is to cheapen it and to demean the high price God paid to preserve it. Because there are abuses of freedom of will does not make it null anymore that to exaggerate immutability into meticulous nit-picking makes God less than God. A relationship with God in Christ requires deferring our will to His and allowing him to make our decisions for us. All this begins with a volitional surrendering or our will in repentance. Such a relationship is not above God. It is with God.
Just because there are a lot of bad relationships in this world, does not mean you can’t have a good one, especially if the one you are humbly trying to relate to is God. God is good all the time.
I think you need to let go of Cobb like you think I need to get off the Augustine thing.
I will if you will.
Neither Augustine nor Cobb can give us anything that scripture and the Holy Spirit can’t give us except distortion and/or exaggeration at one point or another. What you have said of Cobb can be said of Augustine (and Luther and Calvin and Philetus.) Paul on the other hand, takes the unknown god of the Athenians and grounds him in Jesus crucified and resurrected and makes the creator known. The creator can be fully known only as such knowledge is informed by the salvation event on the cross. (We may just have to disagree on emphasis.) Please, I only hope that you are not saying that the cross is nothing to go on when it comes to understanding God. I can accept that for you the starting place is mystery. But, using Paul’s message to the Greeks in Athens as a principle for your view is like saying we have to become Greeks (or Augustinian) before we can ‘stumble onto God’ or we have to become Jews before we can be Christians. I’ll let it go while disagreeing strongly. God and creation can only be understood in Jesus Christ. He is God’s final and more complete revelation. In him the mystery is disclosed. The cross is the stumbling block for the wisdom of the world.
If we walk in the light as he is in the light then we have fellowship one with another and the blood of Jesus cleanses us from sin. What part of fellowship is so hard to understand?
Having a relationship with God in Christ is not an ego trip, it is the most humbling experience a human being can have. Empting self of self will and yielding to God in Christ does not dethrone God or enthrone Christ. God made Jesus Lord and exalted him above all creation because he was made perfect through obedience and suffering. God saves us not because we decided he must but because he loves us and allows us to return to him.
“But if we humbly submit to a God who is other than us, who is our Creator, and in whom we are sustained, than and only then will we receive the light that he gives through his Son.”
And how can we?
No one come to the Father except through the Son. And no one comes unless he is drawn by the Spirit, the Father and the Son. They are one. Jesus said, “If I be lifted up ….”
What do you mean when you say that sin has no power? Again, why is it that admitting that there is power in creation (limited as it might be) that exhibits itself in opposition to God is seen as such an affront to the sovereignty of God. I read that sin has no power only in the context of being in Christ. It is not just a clever statement to point out that God said “if you sin you will die” instead of “if you sin I will kill you.” Sin pays a wage. God allows sin and sin results in death. That is power. But, God is not defeated by such power. He has defeated the power of sin and death in raising Jesus from the dead. What do you do with the statements in scripture that refer to ‘powers and principalities of power’? When you defend your transcendent immutable God by denying the opposing powers that he defeats by the cross you end up with a distorted view of God. Sin does not compliment God. It offends him.
Freedom is not a choice between good and evil … it is a choice between humbly acknowledging God as God and grasping at equality with God. Sin is a distortion and misuse of freedom. The freedom to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and make our own decisions based on that knowledge is to become like god. The only difference is that unlike God we cannot provide our own way of escape and save ourselves. The ultimate POWER is the one that removes the Tree of Life and places it off limits and provides a salvation that we could never conceive and have great difficulty accepting because it is on God’s terms not our.
Please no apologies for going on and on and on. If I forgive you I’ll have to quit.
You are granted the freedom to continue. And who Philetus sets free is free indeed. It is for freedom, that Philetus has set you free. Where the spirit of Philetus is there is liberty.
(FLAG, FLAG, FLAG! :nono: I hope you are not offended but catch my drift.)
This exchange is very helpful to me. I don’t want to go off on some bunny trail and find out years latter that it has cause much damage. I approach this forum as an opportunity for being tested. I don’t expect to change anyone’s views (well except for maybe Rob’s, Just kidding Rob … just seeing if your reading.) Your posts, seekinganswers, help me hear myself as others hear me or don’t, Rob. I’m not out to defend the OTV but to understand it better in light of its critics. What I want to know is truth. I want to know Jesus. So like I said before, I have already told you more than I know. There is Jesus and for everything else there is Master Card. (FLAG!) Thank you for your caring spirit. And may the Truth master us all.
Longsuffering,
Philetus
atrol:
