ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 1

[Philetus]

Untrue, prognosis is the greek word. It cannot be translated any other way but pro 'before' gnosis 'knows' (with emphasis on 'completely). Please define gnosis for me from OV. In context, you say it is pre 'determinate' but there is a word for that. You say 'guess-timate' and there is a word for that. If you can show me that gnosis can mean something else, I'm all ears, but redefining terms to fit doctrine is a big 'οὐδείς οὐδείς' in my book.

"If I'm following you ..."

I'm not saying it is pre-determinative ... I'm saying it doesn't exist with absolute certainty as if the future already exists. It isn't 'guessing' if one has the creative intentionality and the absolute ability to pull it off and it isn't absolutely certain if one has the freedom to adjust to future contingencies. God does not do everything God has the power and ability to do. (Otherwise we would all be dead. And I’m only being halfway sarcastic in that.)

God can with absolute certainty KNOW BEFORE the fact that ONLY those who respond to His Grace will be included among the 'elect' to receive His gift of eternal live. He determined it to be so! What God cannot KNOW BEFORE the fact (without determining it to be so!) is exactly who will and who will not respond in repentance. Otherwise, God has already determined it (Calvinism) or is magically outside of time looking in at our decisions being made in some imagined future (Arminianism).

Prognosis doesn’t solve the problem. Knowing that someone is going to die without treatment isn't a cure. Grace through faith is God’s prescription. God not only suffers with us for the sake of the Gospel; God suffers for us without any guarantee of a favorable response from us.​

 

[Philetus]

If God knows he will do it it is a forgone conclusion that God knows it. AHHHHHH, Foreknowledge of the event regardless of who is the future cause. Strike # 2

Beavis must have died and left you alone.

 

[baloney]

Knight, I'm not mistaken here. Modern physics asserts that time as much a thing as space, gravity or energy. It's not just a measurement and the concept is something else.

Read the link I provided in my previous post. It also provides an example frome Ecclastiasus for the Old Testament view of time.

 

[elected4ever]

Beavis must have died and left you alone.

You better be nice to me or I will tell.

 

[Lon]

"If I'm following you ..."

I'm not saying it is pre-determinative ... I'm saying it doesn't exist with absolute certainty as if the future already exists. It isn't 'guessing' if one has the creative intentionality and the absolute ability to pull it off and it isn't absolutely certain if one has the freedom to adjust to future contingencies. God does not do everything God has the power and ability to do. (Otherwise we would all be dead. And I’m only being halfway sarcastic in that.)

God can with absolute certainty KNOW BEFORE the fact that ONLY those who respond to His Grace will be included among the 'elect' to receive His gift of eternal live. He determined it to be so! What God cannot KNOW BEFORE the fact (without determining it to be so!) is exactly who will and who will not respond in repentance. Otherwise, God has already determined it (Calvinism) or is magically outside of time looking in at our decisions being made in some imagined future (Arminianism).

Prognosis doesn’t solve the problem. Knowing that someone is going to die without treatment isn't a cure. Grace through faith is God’s prescription. God not only suffers with us for the sake of the Gospel; God suffers for us without any guarantee of a favorable response from us.​

Let me try just gnosis for a moment. It means to know with great emphasis on completely. It has a very encompassing tenure "God knows everything that is knowable." So I do not see this as a problem with the knowing part. OV gets this part right. However, when you put the prefix pro- 'beforehand' it should ring as true. To know very fully beforehand. You are still addressing foreknowledge as if we also have it. We don't. Prognosis for us, isn't a perfect analysis, the patient might live. With God, His prognosis is sure.

Let me go back to your chess game for a moment (no, I don't like it, but it is a frequent analogy that is brought up and I believe this aspect will get by scrutiny).

As God foreknows all, He doesn't have to apply Himself very hard. He could almost go through the motions, letting the opponent make whatever move without forcing because in the end, He accomplishes His purposes. He doesn't have to be as involved because He is working a pattern that is effective against the other strategy every time.

As God doesn't know all, and is really put to the test by new moves He's never seen before, He has to intervene intensily to win. There is an actual challenge that He might lose. What a lack of omniscience brings to the table is not infallibility.
Competence is a rooting word for cheerleading in hope. It doesn't have confidence.

Omnipotence is a structural founding word of infallibility.
So a chessmaster is a chessmaster specifically because He has seen it all (All knowing). While a chessmaster is not omniscient, he is closer to the truth of the matter: God supercedes the chessmaster, knows all contingencies, therefore He is never taken by surprise. "There is nothing new under the sun." Foreknowledge means 'knows.'

 

[Clete]

Untrue, prognosis is the greek word. It cannot be translated any other way but pro 'before' gnosis 'knows' (with emphasis on 'completely). Please define gnosis for me from OV. In context, you say it is pre 'determinate' but there is a word for that. You say 'guess-timate' and there is a word for that. If you can show me that gnosis can mean something else, I'm all ears, but redefining terms to fit doctrine is a big 'οὐδείς οὐδείς' in my book.

'prognosis' means to know in advance.

I've not able to follow this thread over the last few days; would someone please tell me what the controversy concerning this word is about? I don't understand what the big deal is. It seems like a pretty straight forward concept to me.

 

[Lon]

'prognosis' means to know in advance.

I've not able to follow this thread over the last few days; would someone please tell me what the controversy concerning this word is about? I don't understand what the big deal is. It seems like a pretty straight forward concept to me.

Great! We agree then, God knows the future before it happens, I was afraid that it hasn't happened yet and therefore isn't logically knowable.

Now that you are moving toward a traditional view, we have much in which to discuss

 

[godrulz]

What triune relationship?

Father, Son, Holy Spirit, the one true God loved, fellowshipped, communicated from all eternity. God was not a lonely, solitary being for trillions of years. This is how God can become a man. The Word/Son became flesh, not the Father or Spirit (Jn. 1:1-18).

 

[DFT_Dave]

Originally Posted by DFT_Dave
But we are not eternal, and we are not outside of time, and therefore we cannot perform future activity for God to see. Am I right or wrong here? Did God create me finite or not? Are you already doing something next Saturday, does it already exist?

That depends on if you are a Son of god or a son of Adam.

Just answer the question, please.

 

[elected4ever]

Originally Posted by DFT_Dave
But we are not eternal, and we are not outside of time, and therefore we cannot perform future activity for God to see. Am I right or wrong here? Did God create me finite or not? Are you already doing something next Saturday, does it already exist?


Just answer the question, please.

That is right. You were created finite. A dead, sinful, fleshly person. If you are still that you are in trouble.

 

[baloney]

Dave, this is not even impossible from a human point of view to see. If I was traveling at the speed of light, I could watch all your life decisions and watch you grow old as I remain only a few minutes old.

I'm not saying god travels at the speed of light, but its not hard to understand God hving omniscience.

 

[elected4ever]

Father, Son, Holy Spirit, the one true God loved, fellowshipped, communicated from all eternity. God was not a lonely, solitary being for trillions of years. This is how God can become a man. The Word/Son became flesh, not the Father or Spirit (Jn. 1:1-18).

That is what I thought you ment. That is a RCC myth.

There is but one God He is His word. He is his Spirit. He is His purpose. He is by His nature God. The Sod of God was born in the flesh like unto a man 2000 years ago. He is the only begotten Son of God in the flesh. He was crucified, He was buried and He was raised from the dead by the power of the Father. He was given a name which is above every name. That ever knee shall bow which is in heaven and on the earth and who is under the earth. He is the word incarnate. He is not God the Father but the Son of His seed. Born without sin. Se could not, would not and did not sin. I am as He is as are all God's children. As He is so am I in this world, TODAY.

The Holy Spirit is that Spirit that is born in a man by the seed of God the Father. It is the seal of righteousness to all who believe. The very new birth, the born again experience that you so vehemently say does not exist. You are a creature of books and a religious system and you know nothing about salvation except what you have read. You have no credibility.

 

[baloney]

elected, what is an RCC myth?

 

[Clete]

Great! We agree then, God knows the future before it happens, I was afraid that it hasn't happened yet and therefore isn't logically knowable.

Now that you are moving toward a traditional view, we have much in which to discuss

I really hope this was sarcasm.

God does not exhaustively know the future.

There are aspects of the future (some of which are now the past) which God determined in advance to bring about unilaterally, those aspects He foreknows.

 

[elected4ever]

elected, what is an RCC myth?

The trinity

 

[Clete]

RCC=Roman Catholic Church

And I told you, elected4ever is insane!

Matthew 3:16 When He had been baptized, Jesus [God the Son] came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God [God the Spirit] descending like a dove and alighting upon Him. 17 And suddenly a voice [God the Father] came from heaven, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”​

If the Bible does not teach that God is triune it doesn't teach anything at all.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[elected4ever]

RCC=Roman Catholic Church

And I told you, elected4ever is insane!

Matthew 3:16 When He had been baptized, Jesus [God the Son] came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God [God the Spirit] descending like a dove and alighting upon Him. 17 And suddenly a voice [God the Father] came from heaven, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”​

If the Bible does not teach that God is triune it doesn't teach anything at all.

Resting in Him,
Clete

the Spirit of God [God the Spirit] descending like a dove and alighting upon Him. Jesus is not the Holy Spirit as is preached in the trinity. But the very life of God Himself coming down to announce the presence of his Son. Jesus was not the father. It was the Father putting His life around His Son and announcing to the world, " This is my Son. The father was not in heaven. he was with His Son on Earth. And a herald from Heaven spoke, not the Father, and as the Father embraced the Son the herald made the announcement. No where does it say it was the Fathers voice. The Father was well pleased to be identified with His Son. So Clete, where is the trinity taught in that verse. and where is the lunatic now?

 

[Yorzhik]

If I'm following you ...
Then what 'caused' God to create in the first place?​

In either view God is the uncaused cause. I fixed it in the post you were referring to. Better?

The whole 'foreknowledge' thing (simple or not; exhaustive or not) rips the heart out of the Gospel. God has creative intentionality, not 'foreknowledge'. He has divine wisdom which trumps knowledge of any kind. Knowledge (limited or exhaustive) is dangerous without wisdom. Power without love is destructive not redemptive. The cross without freedom is empty and meaningless.

:thumb:

 

[elected4ever]

I really hope this was sarcasm.

God does not exhaustively know the future.

There are aspects of the future (some of which are now the past) which God determined in advance to bring about unilaterally, those aspects He foreknows.

To bad God does not fit in your little box you have constructed for Him.

 

[Lon]

Originally Posted by DFT_Dave
But we are not eternal, and we are not outside of time, and therefore we cannot perform future activity for God to see. Am I right or wrong here? Did God create me finite or not? Are you already doing something next Saturday, does it already exist?



Just answer the question, please.

Until we measure something, we cannot know it's length. Unfortunately or fortunately (depending one's pov), we do not know how long something is until we measure it. We use increments to measure all things. We in a sense, invented measurements. They are superficial for standard merely. Certainly everything thing has a definte measure, but the kicker is, God knows everything. So in the same way he knows the length of a 2X4 before it is measured, He knows the length of our days. This is scriptural, it is foreknowledge.