Lon
Well-known member
That's fine, I recognize you all don't have to same theology in OV. Would your's be a majority view that you are aware of?
ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 1
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That's fine, I recognize you all don't have to same theology in OV. Would your's be a majority view that you are aware of?
elected4ever
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That is a fair assessment I suppose.
Lon
Well-known member
It is still 'knowledge before it happens' so by definition is future. I've still not seen a coherent explanation, other than it is logically impossible. But with the definition, apparently it isn't impossible for God. One day this will need a very serious address.
At this point, I've only seen redefinition. I appreciate the finite mind seeing it as logically impossible.
elected4ever
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I believe god did know the opposition to his plan but what does it matter now? The opposition cannot and could not stop the word from accomplishing the purpose for which it was sent forth. God does not take risk. I never trust a gambler.
Let's start here:
Genesis 6:5The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6And the LORD was sorry that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart. 7So the LORD said, “I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the ground, man and beast and creeping things and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them.”
No one can argue that God foreknew this would happen. We have nothing stated in scripture that this was going to happen. When God predicts that the world will be flooded it is because he will cause it to happen.
Is there any text in Genesis that someone would like to use to show that God has foreknowledge of future events that he, himself, simply did not cause?
elected4ever
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it is a wonderful world. You should join it.:bannana:
Originally Posted by DFT_Dave
You write very well, excellent description of free will. Could you take this a step further, did God foreknow our responses before he created the world? If he did, then, how is it that God can see the future responses of people who did not yet exist?
Just try to answer the question, please. If you can't just say so, but then don't make statements you can't explain. This is not Sunday School.
You write very well, excellent description of free will. Could you take this a step further, did God foreknow our responses before he created the world? If he did, then, how is it that God can see the future responses of people who did not yet exist?
Just try to answer the question, please. If you can't just say so, but then don't make statements you can't explain. This is not Sunday School.
elected4ever
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As Clete would say, You got your answer. Just because you don't like the answer is irrelevant.
But we are not eternal, and we are not outside of time, and therefore we cannot perform future activity for God to see. Am I right or wrong here? Did God create me finite or not? Are you already doing something next Saturday, does it already exist?
Philetus
New member
Never argued it wasn't. Clete's right. You are insane, bro. :chuckle: And I love you for it. But, get a clue. (It ain't Sunday school.????!!!!:chuckle: :chuckle: )
See if you can follow...
I have said that IF there were a thing such as 'foreknowledge' then it is causal. This middle ground of 'God being outside of time' in some 'eternal now' is ridiculous. Only if that were true could one argue that by some far stretch of the imagination God sees events before they happen with out causing them. In fact I argue that foreknowledge as you define it doesn't even exist! The future doesn't exist as actual/knowable. What's to know? Only that God can be trusted to do not only the right thing but what God intends and declares He will do as well.
See if you can follow...
I have said that IF there were a thing such as 'foreknowledge' then it is causal. This middle ground of 'God being outside of time' in some 'eternal now' is ridiculous. Only if that were true could one argue that by some far stretch of the imagination God sees events before they happen with out causing them. In fact I argue that foreknowledge as you define it doesn't even exist! The future doesn't exist as actual/knowable. What's to know? Only that God can be trusted to do not only the right thing but what God intends and declares He will do as well.
Philetus
New member
Yes, I was sure that is what you meant, but not sure of baloney's first statement itself. Thanks for the expanded version. 
You know you didn't give an answer. The answer is that the only way God could know the future would be that he created it or the world is eternal.
Philetus
New member
Very poetic baloney.
And just how long does it take for one of those rays from the sun to actually hit the earth, that is unless an object interferes and cast a shadow instead?
And just how long does it take for one of those rays from the sun to actually hit the earth, that is unless an object interferes and cast a shadow instead?
Philetus
New member
And from this mountain top God sees them choose and act WHEN? When they act or before they act?
elected4ever
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That depends on if you are a Son of god or a son of Adam.
I think the real problem here is that divine providence cannot be frustrtaed so you are worried that if God forsees the future than the effects occur out of necessity.
But God created humans to be contingent creatures and our effects occur out of contingency or proximation to God's goals.
This is because God created our nature and endowed our will with a desire for the ultimate goodness of God. It can be that we misread our desire into things such as money etc. instead of God and take the wrong path, but then God is not making our choices but trying to shine his ultimate goodness through to us.
This way God is not interfering with our choices and is similar to the idea thrown in here about God letting things come to pass. Otherwise even saying God letting things come to pass through his power would still be forcing our will to do something.
Philetus God would see our past present and future as a simultaneous "moment." It is impossible for humans to actualize this and we can only speak of it in an analogous way.
But God created humans to be contingent creatures and our effects occur out of contingency or proximation to God's goals.
This is because God created our nature and endowed our will with a desire for the ultimate goodness of God. It can be that we misread our desire into things such as money etc. instead of God and take the wrong path, but then God is not making our choices but trying to shine his ultimate goodness through to us.
This way God is not interfering with our choices and is similar to the idea thrown in here about God letting things come to pass. Otherwise even saying God letting things come to pass through his power would still be forcing our will to do something.
Philetus God would see our past present and future as a simultaneous "moment." It is impossible for humans to actualize this and we can only speak of it in an analogous way.
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