ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 1

[Bob Hill]

Because God Changes His Mind, Prayer Is Effective

Ex 32:9-14 And the LORD said to Moses, I have seen this people, and indeed it is a stiff-necked people! 10 Now therefore, let Me alone, that My wrath may burn hot against them and I may consume them. And I will make of you a great nation. 11 Then Moses pleaded with the LORD his God, and said: LORD, why does Your wrath burn hot against Your people whom You have brought out of the land of Egypt with great power and with a mighty hand? 12 Why should the Egyptians speak, and say, He brought them out to harm them, to kill them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from Your fierce wrath, and relent from this harm to Your people. 13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, Your servants, to whom You swore by Your own self, and said to them, I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven; and all this land that I have spoken of I give to your descendants, and they shall inherit it forever. 14 So the LORD repented from the harm which He said He would do to His people.

Praise the Lord,
Bob

 

[Bob Hill]

When man is so rebellious that he is totally unpredictable, God explains His reaction to it in this way: Num 14:11-12 Then the LORD said to Moses: How long will these people reject Me? And how long will they not believe Me, with all the signs which I have performed among them? 12 I will strike them with the pestilence and disinherit them, and I will make of you a nation greater and mightier than they.

Moses responded. 19-20 Pardon the iniquity of this people, I pray, according to the greatness of Your mercy, just as You have forgiven this people, from Egypt even until now. 20 Then the LORD said: I have pardoned, according to your word.

What we should do it praise Him for His love and care for us.

Bob

 

[Bob Hill]

Because there is free will, God’s promises to Israel are conditional.

Ex 33:2 And I will send My Angel before you, and I will drive out the Canaanite and the Amorite and the Hittite and the Perizzite and the Hivite and the Jebusite.

Ex 34:11 Observe what I command you this day. Behold, I am driving out from before you the Amorite and the Canaanite and the Hittite and the Perizzite and the Hivite and the Jebusite.

Ex 34:24 For I will cast out the nations before you and enlarge your borders; neither will any man covet your land when you go up to appear before the LORD your God three times in the year.

Josh 1:4-5 From the wilderness and this Lebanon as far as the great river, the River Euphrates, all the land of the Hittites, and to the Great Sea toward the going down of the sun, shall be your territory. 5 No man shall be able to stand before you all the days of your life; as I was with Moses, so I will be with you. I will not leave you nor forsake you.

Josh 3:10 And Joshua said, By this you shall know that the living God is among you, and that He will without fail drive out from before you the Canaanites and the Hittites and the Hivites and the Perizzites and the Girgashites and the Amorites and the Jebusites.

On my next post, I'll show that God didn't do what He said He would in these verses. I've got to go, now.

Bob Hill

 

[elected4ever]

(Clete is gonna love this.)

From: The Message ... I Peter 1:

13 So roll up your sleeves, put your mind in gear, be totally ready to receive the gift that's coming when Jesus arrives. 14 Don't lazily slip back into those old grooves of evil, doing just what you feel like doing. You didn't know any better then; you do now. 15 As obedient children, let yourselves be pulled into a way of life shaped by God's life, a life energetic and blazing with holiness. 16 God said, "I am holy; you be holy." 17 You call out to God for help and he helps - he's a good Father that way. But don't forget, he's also a responsible Father, and won't let you get by with sloppy living. 18 It cost God plenty to get you out of that dead-end, empty-headed life you grew up in. 19 He paid with Christ's sacred blood, you know. He died like an unblemished, sacrificial lamb. 20 And this was no afterthought. Even though it has only lately - at the end of the ages - become public knowledge, God always knew he was going to do this for you. 21 It's because of this sacrificed Messiah, whom God then raised from the dead and glorified, that you trust God, that you know you have a future in God. 22 Now that you've cleaned up your lives by following the truth, love one another as if your lives depended on it. 23 Your new life is not like your old life. Your old birth came from mortal sperm; your new birth comes from God's living Word. Just think: a life conceived by God himself!​

Thanks E4E, I appreciate what you are saying. But, I'm not more than I think I am. I couldn't possibly be. I'm a new creature in Christ born of God’s spirit. The enemy can't touch me even when I do sin. Sin used to be a three-way issue; me, the devil and God. But now in Christ it is just between me and my Father and God no longer deals with me as I deserve but as a SON. I'm just careful not to think more highly of my self than I ought. I’m also careful not to think less of myself than God thinks of me regardless of condemning theologies that say otherwise.

1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.


1 John 4:14 ¶And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
17 ¶Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.Why wont you believe thatyou do not and cannot sin? Argue with the Apostel John. You do not sin because i say so, you do not sin because God said so.

1 John 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
19 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.
20 ¶For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.
22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
23 ¶And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

 

[Philetus]

I know what you mean. We must continually walk in the light as He is in the light (John). We must continually walk in the Spirit, not the flesh (Paul).

Technically, sin is not a substance. As we sin, we form a nature (Eph. 2). We are not born with moral depravity (physical depravity is inherited from Adam; moral depravity is volitional leading to bondage). Sin is volitional. Romans 6 reminds us to yield to Spirit vs flesh. This involves obedient choices moment by moment. It is not a matter of a causative nature back of the will.

(I reject Augustinian 'original sin'...if you affirm it, then we finally disagree about something...it is too syrupy sweet when we are each other's booster).

I know if we keep at it we are bound to find something we can bark about, but Augustinian “original sin’ apparently isn’t it. I doubt seriously that we will find much about Augustine that will divide us. Augustine is a hoot. I’ll stick with scripture.

I believe we are all ‘original sinners’ always inventing new ways of sinning, applauding others who sin and passing out prizes to the biggest sinners among us,. (Of course I’m referring to the world, not the church.)

32Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.​

Being born into a fallen world precludes that our basic nature will to a greater or lesser degree be shaped by sin (and it only takes one). There is no avoiding it. In righteous mercy God has subjected the world to such futility. Even with godly parents who do their best to raise us ‘in the faith’ sooner or later we must come to terms with the fact that it isn’t just Adam’s sin that we suffer from, it’s our own. Each and everyone must be born again on God’s terms. Maybe that is one reason why I find the doctrine of ‘individual election’ so bazaar.

 

[elected4ever]

Because God Changes His Mind, Prayer Is Effective

Ex 32:9-14 And the LORD said to Moses, I have seen this people, and indeed it is a stiff-necked people! 10 Now therefore, let Me alone, that My wrath may burn hot against them and I may consume them. And I will make of you a great nation. 11 Then Moses pleaded with the LORD his God, and said: LORD, why does Your wrath burn hot against Your people whom You have brought out of the land of Egypt with great power and with a mighty hand? 12 Why should the Egyptians speak, and say, He brought them out to harm them, to kill them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from Your fierce wrath, and relent from this harm to Your people. 13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, Your servants, to whom You swore by Your own self, and said to them, I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven; and all this land that I have spoken of I give to your descendants, and they shall inherit it forever. 14 So the LORD repented from the harm which He said He would do to His people.

Praise the Lord,
Bob

God answers the prayer of the righteous because the righteous pray according to the will of God. It does not require that God change His mind

 

[godrulz]

Dr. Phil:

Which statement best describes your view?

i) We sin because we are born sinners?

ii) We are sinners because we sin?

Can we blame it all on Adam or the devil (Flip Wilson)?

 

[godrulz]

The entire book of I John must be exegeted carefully. I once translated most of it from Greek to English identifying grammatical issues with each word and phrase. This was years ago and I can no longer do so (unless my life depended on it and I spent much time). The grammar helps us understand e4e proof texts as well as the context. It also does not contradict other verses that seem to say the opposite.

 

[Philetus]

Why wont you believe thatyou do not and cannot sin? Argue with the Apostel John. You do not sin because i say so, you do not sin because God said so.

It is a matter of emphasis. The people to whom Christ has sent me have heard your point emphasized so much to the exclusion of taking personal responsibility for their actions that it is detrimental to their faith.

It is a matter of balance. “I write to you little children that you sin not. BUT, IF YOU DO SIN … “

It is a matter of care and concern for those of weaker faith. They are so easily discouraged, so easily offended. And eating meat sacrificed to idols in front of them because we know it isn’t sinful for us anymore causes them to stumble.

It is a matter of evangelism. Your position may fly in the ‘holy of holies’ but it won’t fly in the alleyways of the world where I have been called to lay my life down.

It is a matter of honesty. When we say we have no sin, it makes God out to be a liar and His word has no place in us. And I would add that we loose credibility with the world as witnesses to what God has done and is doing in our own lives.

It is a matter of being reasonable. The same action isn’t a sin for the wretched and just a ‘mistake’ for the saved.

E4E, I understand what you are saying. I do. But, please, don’t bring it to the alley. There we are just sinners saved by grace through believing the truth about God and coming to terms with the truth about ourselves. There we are just children learning to trust a Father to save us and meet our needs. There we are mere servants of the Most High God. And there we still confess our sins in order to be healed.

 

[Philetus]

Dr. Phil:

Which statement best describes your view?

i) We sin because we are born sinners?

ii) We are sinners because we sin?

Can we blame it all on Adam or the devil (Flip Wilson)?

iii) This woman thou gavest me.

and the winner is ... #2 best describes my view. We are sinners because we sin and we sin because we are born into a sinful fallen world. NO avoiding it.

We are not born sinners. We are born in sin.

Can I have a cookie anyway.



Oh, the peer presser.

 

[Philetus]

God answers the prayer of the righteous because the righteous pray according to the will of God. It does not require that God change His mind

It doesn't ALWAYS require God to ‘change’ His mind. Sometimes God just ‘makes up’ his mind in light of our prayers.

Moses responded. 19-20 Pardon the iniquity of this people, I pray, according to the greatness of Your mercy, just as You have forgiven this people, from Egypt even until now. 20 Then the LORD said: I have pardoned, according to your word.​

Sometimes God’s mercy overrides his previously expressed intention. Sometimes prayer actually helps shape the future. Neither is ever contrary to the will of God.

Does it besmirch the character of God to say that God doesn't care or hasn't even considered, (hasn't a will either way) as to some things that may or may not happen in the future? (I do believe God is betting on the Colts this year.)

Good God! NO?

 

[lee_merrill]

Lee, you jump to too many conclusions. Just because God repented about 30 times in the O T, doesn’t mean He couldn’t determine something to happen exactly the way He wanted it.

Why then the repentance of his former plan, I would ask? This would imply events did not turn out the way he wanted them.

My God can do anything He wants to do. He chose to let man have a lot of freedom. Sometimes man was so wacky that God didn’t know what man would do.

Then God does not want to know how his planse will turn out? But surely he does, and if his plans do not always turn out well, then we need not always trust God's counsel, is this not correct?

Thus it will not always be best to follow the Lord's leading, events might turn out better with another choice, even from God's perspective.

And for Philetus, you post the question: "What about the Sabeans, I ask again? Who took away Job’s donkeys, the Sabeans, or Satan?"

And now you should answer it!

Blessings,
Lee <- Odd indeed that the Open Theists should make their refutation into their banner

 

[Philetus]

Sorry I meant to include the following with the above “Sometimes God just ‘makes up’ his mind in light of our prayers.”

Luke 18:
5yet because this widow keeps bothering me, I will see that she gets justice, so that she won't eventually wear me out with her coming!' "
6And the Lord said, "Listen to what the unjust judge says. 7And will not God bring about justice for his chosen ones, who cry out to him day and night? Will he keep putting them off?​

I’m really just trying to post as many times as Bob Hill.
Keep it coming Pastor Hill.

 

[elected4ever]

It is a matter of emphasis. The people to whom Christ has sent me have heard your point emphasized so much to the exclusion of taking personal responsibility for their actions that it is detrimental to their faith.

It is a matter of balance. “I write to you little children that you sin not. BUT, IF YOU DO SIN … “

It is a matter of care and concern for those of weaker faith. They are so easily discouraged, so easily offended. And eating meat sacrificed to idols in front of them because we know it isn’t sinful for us anymore causes them to stumble.

It is a matter of evangelism. Your position may fly in the ‘holy of holies’ but it won’t fly in the alleyways of the world where I have been called to lay my life down.

It is a matter of honesty. When we say we have no sin, it makes God out to be a liar and His word has no place in us. And I would add that we loose credibility with the world as witnesses to what God has done and is doing in our own lives.

It is a matter of being reasonable. The same action isn’t a sin for the wretched and just a ‘mistake’ for the saved.

E4E, I understand what you are saying. I do. But, please, don’t bring it to the alley. There we are just sinners saved by grace through believing the truth about God and coming to terms with the truth about ourselves. There we are just children learning to trust a Father to save us and meet our needs. There we are mere servants of the Most High God. And there we still confess our sins in order to be healed.

Don't you agree that people need to know there sinful condition and that a way of escape been made for them? I certainly needed to know that. You need to remember that it is the Holy Spirit that seeks and saves the lost and it is the Holy Spirit that convicts of sin, of righteousness and of judgement. We need to be about preaching the hope of the gospel. Not lying to make the gospel more palatable to the unbelieving. If the gospel is hid it is hid to those who have chosen to remain in there sin and unbelief. If we say that we remain sinners even after our salvation then we also have no hope because all sin must be eliminated to have fellowship with God. I have seen more hearts broken, including my on, because of sincerely thinking that the father of all glory was disappointed with me. Instead of finding hope all I found was sadness and remorse. Now it is the hope that drives me forward not the fear of doing something stupid. The world needs to see that hope. Not the helplessness of a person driven by the self introspection that consumes most Christians today. I submit to you that this false sense of guilt and fear of sin that one thinks he may commit causes the most dis-function in a believers life . It is a grand stroke of genius by Satan to get the children of God to believe that. By that one stroke he has rendered most Christians ineffective.

 

[Philetus]

And for Philetus, you post the question: "What about the Sabeans, I ask again? Who took away Job’s donkeys, the Sabeans, or Satan?"

And now you should answer it!

Blessings,
Lee <- Odd indeed that the Open Theists should make their refutation into their banner

Don’t even go there Lee. I’ll take your donkey out! :jump:
It’s your question. You answer it anyway you want to. :doh:

Lee's sig: "Even now we seem to have dim glimpses into regions from which we receive no word to bring away." (George MacDonald)

Dim glimpses? Indeed! Donkies and Sabeans and devils everywhere.

 

[patman]

Hi everyone,


But God removed the hedge, that is the point.


If you say to a thug, “He is in your hands,” then yes, you have responsibility.


It was in fact the devil’s question at issue, “Does Job serve God for nothing?”


I agree that God is not a tempter.


I agree that God is not the source of evil, but he does cause sinful actions, just as you can control a water hose and not be the source of the water.


The reason was I was trying to narrow the discussion, you repeatedly ignore my points (for example) about Elihu, and make the same statements over and over again.

So…


What about the Sabeans, I ask again? Who took away Job’s donkeys, the Sabeans, or Satan?


Yet still unwitting blasphemy was a sin, yes, Paul was a violent man, he was also an unwitting blasphemer, and he had to be forgiven for both sins.

You simply ignore the point, and then make claim again and again, and this does not seem to advance the discussion, somehow.


Quite so, God says it’s not a sin to say “The Lord took away,” also Scripture says “the trouble the Lord brought on Job, and you have yet again ignored my point. Restating your conclusion does not constitute an argument, sad to say.


Again I note that Elihu implied clearly that God did this.

Job 36:17 But now you are laden with the judgment due the wicked; judgment and justice have taken hold of you.

Now Satan would not be in view here, carrying out justice and judgment, therefore the one acting here, according to Elihu, would be God.

But I’m weary of this, and will stop here.

Regards,
Lee

P.S. Pastor Hill, would you please respond to my points? This also wearies me, I must say.

Lee,, I have to restate my .... statements.... because you do not address them. Your answers do not consider the context I submit.

Satan has freewill just like the rest of us. He is not a caged animal, he is not a minion following Gods orders. He is not a thug in God's ranks. He is a free agent who accuses men before God.

God's Hedge is not a barrier of protection, it is Job's blessings. Satan makes the argument that Job is only faithful because he knows he gets blessed for doing so. So God allows Satan to take the blessings away. To "remove the hedge" so to say. After all, Satan could have been right. God needed to know where Job really stood.

God didn't release the beast, he didn't order Satan to go, he didn't give a thug permission to steal. Satan is free to sin just like any of us. I don't ask God before I sin, do you? This entire thing represents Satan accusing men before God. God allowing for Satan's tests is not linked to God in any way because God allows for freewill of all types.

He did set boundaries tho. No hurting Job the first time. No killing Job the second. The test would be for nothing had Job died before he could decide.

Freewill means God must allow freedom.

Lee: What about the Sabeans, I ask again? Who took away Job’s donkeys, the Sabeans, or Satan?

They were free too. Satan didn't make them do anything. Though I am sure he tempted them, still their actions are their own fault. Just like Satan's actions were his own.

Satan's idea, Satan's actions, Satan's intentions, were all his own. Sounds like Satan did it to me, Lee. Oh, that is right, Satan did do it. God said that. How could he be wrong about that?

So Job, a mere mortal, does not see all this going on. He believes God did it. So he is wrong. Not sinning, yet wrong. Even what he said is not blaspheme, "shall we take good from god and not bad" and "The Lord takes away" are a far cry from blaspheme.

Blaspheme is where you curse God, call him a name. Misunderstanding God's actions is not blaspheme. Why even try to prove your point with Paul at all, Lee?

 

[Philetus]

Don't you agree that people need to know there sinful condition and that a way of escape been made for them? I certainly needed to know that. You need to remember that it is the Holy Spirit that seeks and saves the lost and it is the Holy Spirit that convicts of sin, of righteousness and of judgement. We need to be about preaching the hope of the gospel. Not lying to make the gospel more palatable to the unbelieving. If the gospel is hid it is hid to those who have chosen to remain in there sin and unbelief. If we say that we remain sinners even after our salvation then we also have no hope because all sin must be eliminated to have fellowship with God. I have seen more hearts broken, including my on, because of sincerely thinking that the father of all glory was disappointed with me. Instead of finding hope all I found was sadness and remorse. Now it is the hope that drives me forward not the fear of doing something stupid. The world needs to see that hope. Not the helplessness of a person driven by the self introspection that consumes most Christians today. I submit to you that this false sense of guilt and fear of sin that one thinks he may commit causes the most dis-function in a believers life . It is a grand stroke of genius by Satan to get the children of God to believe that. By that one stroke he has rendered most Christians ineffective.

Yes I do, and the inverse is true as well. Do you 'hope' for what you already have?

 

[Philetus]

Lee: What about the Sabeans, I ask again? Who took away Job’s donkeys, the Sabeans, or Satan?

Patman: They were free too. Satan didn't make them do anything. Though I am sure he tempted them, still their actions are their own fault. Just like Satan's actions were his own.

There is your answer Lee.

Sabean #1: Hey, I got an idea. Let’s take Job’s donkeys.
Sabean #2: Good idea. Where did you come up with that?
Sabean #1: I heard his hedge is down.
Sabean #3: Cool, dude. Let’s do it.
Satan: ........ :jazz:​

:cow: :cow: :cow: :cow:


We really need a donkey smiley.

 

[Bob Hill]

lee_merrill wrote

Why then the repentance of his former plan, I would ask? This would imply events did not turn out the way he wanted them.

Bob

My God can do anything He wants to do. He chose to let man have a lot of freedom. Sometimes man was so wacky that God didn’t know what man would do.

lee_merrill wrote

Then God does not want to know how his planse will turn out? But surely he does, and if his plans do not always turn out well, then we need not always trust God's counsel, is this not correct?

Thus it will not always be best to follow the Lord's leading, events might turn out better with another choice, even from God's perspective.

And for Philetus, you post the question: "What about the Sabeans, I ask again? Who took away Job’s donkeys, the Sabeans, or Satan?"

God is all powerful. He can make anything that He thinks is important, happen exactly the way He wants it. He gives man a lot of freedom, but He will intercede anytime something begins to happen that would interfere with His plans.

My God is the God of the possible. He is in complete cntrol even though He allows man to do things that are a surprise to Him.

In Christ,
Bob Hill

 

[Bob Hill]

Open theism is really a challenge to Calvinism and Determinism if you want to make a distinction between the two.

Everything is already decided from here to eternity by Calvinists.

The Bible shows us that we actually have choices.

I've always wondered why strong Calvinists believe God makes everything that happens, but they never act that way.

Just wondering,
Bob Hill