ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 1
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Philetus
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elected4ever said:
Ga 2:20 - I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Sorry E4E, but the harder we try to preserve our pet views the more we confuse ourselves and the lost. I believe the Gospel, the simple straight forward truth about God. God in Christ is for us, not against us. It's us I can't believe. We just complicate the hell out of God's love and make it darn near impossible to love God in return and convince the world that loving one another is just talk.
John 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
Hebrews 2:14-18
14 Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of death--that is, the devil-- 15 and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death. 16 For surely it is not angels he helps, but Abraham's descendants. 17 For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people. 18 Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.
Hebrews 2:14-18
14 Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of death--that is, the devil-- 15 and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death. 16 For surely it is not angels he helps, but Abraham's descendants. 17 For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people. 18 Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.
What an awesome God.
elected4ever
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The work of the devil is the enslavement and destruction of man. The devil has succeeded in that goal and Jesus came to free us from the work of the devil. I agree. Jesus came to destroy the work of the devil.Philetus said:
If we remain (abide) in the flesh then we are enslaved in sin but if we are of the Spirit then we are set free from the law of sin and death and death has no more power over us. This is not accomplished in the flesh but in the Spirit. We are born again of the seed of God in the Spirit and cannot sin.
Sense godrulz believes that our new birth is but a metaphor we are subject to the flesh and therefore must sin. This makes Nil and void the sacrifice of Christ for sin. Jesus took sin out of the equation by taking our sin upon Himself. I am not saying that man is sinless perfection in the flesh but I am saying that we are no longer in the flesh but stand in the righteous power of God. What we could not overcome, Christ did and we are in Christ and not in the flesh. We have been delivered from the clutches of death that came upon all men and have been given life and that more abundantly. Yes God is an awesome God.
The teaching of Paul is not that we do not do wrongly but that we are no longer under the law and that were there is no law, sin is not IMPUTED.elected4ever said:
Do you understand the difference between the concepts of "committed" and "imputed"?
That is not intended to be a sarcastic question, by the way.
Further, what was Paul talking about when he said...
Romans 7:24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
Resting in Him,
Clete
lee_merrill
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Of course not, now how about the Sabeans? Were they involved? Did they take away, or was it Satan?
But you skipped all my other points.
Blessings,
Lee
elected4ever
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Romans 8:1 ¶There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus,Clete said:
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 ¶And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Romans 8:10 ¶And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 ¶And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
26 ¶Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 ¶For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Paul answered your question pretty well didn't he?
Bob Hill
TOL Subscriber
The Open View of God gets put away too easily on this thread. There are a great amount of biblical passages which describe God’s foreknowledge and predestination. However there are a great number of passages which show a lot of the future is, what we call, open. God seems to surprised at times, changes His mind at times and most of all repents at times. I praise Him for being this way.
In Christ,
Bob Hill
In Christ,
Bob Hill
Philetus
New member
Must sin? I don’t think so. Might sin? I know so. All the references we have posted allow for this contingency. Denying it doesn’t give a clear picture of what it means to live in Christ while still living in the world as a flesh and blood human being. Sin in a believer’s life doesn’t make 'nil and void' the sacrifice of Christ. And by insisting that after new-birth we never sin you are sending a very confusing message. I think it is why so many think that they have to stop sinning before they can come to Jesus.
I agree with your statement above that in Christ sin has no power over us to destroy us. 'Christ in you' is the hope we have of sharing in His glory. Jesus succeeded! However, I adamantly disagree where you castigate godrulz to preserve your hair-splitting, one-sided, monocular view of reality. No wonder the body of Christ is so divided.
Philetus
PS, I couldn't resist, I'm weak. I know. But, I'm covered. I really will try and not do it again. God help me.
Now, How about them Colts? Did God win that game or did the Colts?
lee_merrill
New member
Hi Pastor Hill,
But I think God is more praiseworthy if he never stumbles, and should God not apologize if his decisions turn out sometimes badly? We certainly do.
These replies were the ones I meant, thanks...
But as there are different senses of the word "know", another sense than factual knowledge may be what is meant here, as is I know factually the water is cold, I jump in, now I know the water is cold.
Jeremiah 31:8 See, I will bring them from the land of the north and gather them from the ends of the earth. Among them will be the blind and the lame, expectant mothers and women in labor; a great throng will return.
Jeremiah 31:18 I have surely heard Ephraim's moaning: 'You disciplined me like an unruly calf, and I have been disciplined. Restore me, and I will return, because you are the Lord my God.
And why, may I ask, should we trust God's counsel, if he can be mistaken about people's hearts, and about what they will or will not do?
God bless you,
Lee
Yet how can we praise God for possibly making wrong evaluations, leading to surprise, and for the potential to make mistakes in judgment? We also should be praised for our potential to err?Bob Hill said:
But I think God is more praiseworthy if he never stumbles, and should God not apologize if his decisions turn out sometimes badly? We certainly do.
Bob Hill said:
These replies were the ones I meant, thanks...
But then how can God predict what people will do based on their character if he didn't even know that Abraham feared God?Bob Hill said:
But as there are different senses of the word "know", another sense than factual knowledge may be what is meant here, as is I know factually the water is cold, I jump in, now I know the water is cold.
Or "I said [the usual meaning of the word 'amar'] she will return, and she did not return," and she will!
Jeremiah 31:8 See, I will bring them from the land of the north and gather them from the ends of the earth. Among them will be the blind and the lame, expectant mothers and women in labor; a great throng will return.
Jeremiah 31:18 I have surely heard Ephraim's moaning: 'You disciplined me like an unruly calf, and I have been disciplined. Restore me, and I will return, because you are the Lord my God.
And why, may I ask, should we trust God's counsel, if he can be mistaken about people's hearts, and about what they will or will not do?
God bless you,
Lee
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elected4ever
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Pretty much except for the definition of sin which I define as all that opposes God as opposed to a specific act. People only act according to there nature when they are not saved. The human creation is opposed to God and therefore are sinners and act accordingly.Clete said:
Secondly the person who is born again, saved, acts according to the true nature that is born of God and that is the identity of a Christian. That is why acts committed in the flesh and the deeds of men are so abhorrent to us. We are waiting for the manifestation of the new body that we shall receive at Christ's coming. The resurrection if you will.
Paul seems to clearly define sin in relation to the law, does he not?elected4ever said:
"Where there is no law, sin is not imputed."
The law is what gives us knowledge of sin (of right and wrong; good and evil). The law then shares the same ministry as the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. In fact the law is the knowledge of good and evil. But sin, a violation of the law, can only be justly imputed once. Our evil actions (a.k.a. sins) are not imputed to us because, if we are in Him, they have already been imputed to Christ who died as a substitute in payment for those very sins. Thus it is not that we do not commit sin but simply that those sins are not imputed to us by virtue of our identification in Christ's death. This is the theme of the Romans 7 and the book of Galatians as well as Paul's entire ministry.
Resting in Him,
Clete
elected4ever
New member
Ah, Philetis, you are more that you think you are. much more. Would you agree that there are two natures existent in this body of ours. The nature of man and the nature of God. godrulz doesn't believe that, Do you? The human nature is by its nature sinful. That nature, though dead to God, still exist as lone as we remain on this earth but that is not who we are but it is what we were and it is what Christ died to free us from. Are you proposing that Christ did not succeed?Philetus said:
Did Christ not 'succeed' just because universalism is not true (all are not saved despite His perfect sacrifice and provision)?
Does the Holy Spirit not 'succeed' in freeing us from sin because we reject His sanctifying work, His grace, and quench/grieve Him at times through our disobedience?
Not all are saved; not all believers live consistent Christian lives in every thought, motive, deed, action. It is our fault, not God's fault. Relationship and holiness are not caused or coerced. They are cooperative involving two parties. Just because we reject His provision or do not yield to Him does not mean there is a deficiency in His provision or power. We are the weak link. We are responsible for our choices. We are exhorted to obey vs disobey in order to walk in the light and spirit. A theoretical theology that is not practical nor resonates with reality is suspect.
Emphasing the Godward does not negate the manward in the area of sanctification. God alone can regenerate, but we can subsequently obey or disobey in any given temptation/choice.
2 Cor. 7:2 "Since we have these promises (provision), dear friends, let US purify OURSELVES from everything that contaminates BODY and SPIRIT, PERFECTING (us) holiness out of reverence for God." (active/cooperative vs passive/unilateral).
I Peter 1:13-16 "Therefore, (you) prepare your minds for action; (imperative/command=obey); be SELF-controlled; set your hope fully on the grace to be given you when Jesus Christ is revealed. As OBEDIENT (volitional; active vs passive) children, do NOT (imperative) conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance (exhortation needed because some believers were carnal in Corinth, etc. vs sinless perfectionism). But just as He who called you is holy, so be HOLY IN ALL YOU DO (not just positional, but experiential, related to obedient choices vs zapped at conversion); for it is written, "Be holy (command to obey vs mental assent only), because I am holy."
Romans 6 also talks about a Godward and manward (yield, obey, etc.) side to our walk with God. In your view, God gets the blame for Christians who do not conform to His Word and character?
Does the Holy Spirit not 'succeed' in freeing us from sin because we reject His sanctifying work, His grace, and quench/grieve Him at times through our disobedience?
Not all are saved; not all believers live consistent Christian lives in every thought, motive, deed, action. It is our fault, not God's fault. Relationship and holiness are not caused or coerced. They are cooperative involving two parties. Just because we reject His provision or do not yield to Him does not mean there is a deficiency in His provision or power. We are the weak link. We are responsible for our choices. We are exhorted to obey vs disobey in order to walk in the light and spirit. A theoretical theology that is not practical nor resonates with reality is suspect.
Emphasing the Godward does not negate the manward in the area of sanctification. God alone can regenerate, but we can subsequently obey or disobey in any given temptation/choice.
2 Cor. 7:2 "Since we have these promises (provision), dear friends, let US purify OURSELVES from everything that contaminates BODY and SPIRIT, PERFECTING (us) holiness out of reverence for God." (active/cooperative vs passive/unilateral).
I Peter 1:13-16 "Therefore, (you) prepare your minds for action; (imperative/command=obey); be SELF-controlled; set your hope fully on the grace to be given you when Jesus Christ is revealed. As OBEDIENT (volitional; active vs passive) children, do NOT (imperative) conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance (exhortation needed because some believers were carnal in Corinth, etc. vs sinless perfectionism). But just as He who called you is holy, so be HOLY IN ALL YOU DO (not just positional, but experiential, related to obedient choices vs zapped at conversion); for it is written, "Be holy (command to obey vs mental assent only), because I am holy."
Romans 6 also talks about a Godward and manward (yield, obey, etc.) side to our walk with God. In your view, God gets the blame for Christians who do not conform to His Word and character?
Philetus
New member
(Clete is gonna love this.)
From: The Message ... I Peter 1:
Thanks E4E, I appreciate what you are saying. But, I'm not more than I think I am. I couldn't possibly be. I'm a new creature in Christ born of God’s spirit. The enemy can't touch me even when I do sin. Sin used to be a three-way issue; me, the devil and God. But now in Christ it is just between me and my Father and God no longer deals with me as I deserve but as a SON. I'm just careful not to think more highly of my self than I ought. I’m also careful not to think less of myself than God thinks of me regardless of condemning theologies that say otherwise.
From: The Message ... I Peter 1:
13 So roll up your sleeves, put your mind in gear, be totally ready to receive the gift that's coming when Jesus arrives. 14 Don't lazily slip back into those old grooves of evil, doing just what you feel like doing. You didn't know any better then; you do now. 15 As obedient children, let yourselves be pulled into a way of life shaped by God's life, a life energetic and blazing with holiness. 16 God said, "I am holy; you be holy." 17 You call out to God for help and he helps - he's a good Father that way. But don't forget, he's also a responsible Father, and won't let you get by with sloppy living. 18 It cost God plenty to get you out of that dead-end, empty-headed life you grew up in. 19 He paid with Christ's sacred blood, you know. He died like an unblemished, sacrificial lamb. 20 And this was no afterthought. Even though it has only lately - at the end of the ages - become public knowledge, God always knew he was going to do this for you. 21 It's because of this sacrificed Messiah, whom God then raised from the dead and glorified, that you trust God, that you know you have a future in God. 22 Now that you've cleaned up your lives by following the truth, love one another as if your lives depended on it. 23 Your new life is not like your old life. Your old birth came from mortal sperm; your new birth comes from God's living Word. Just think: a life conceived by God himself!
Thanks E4E, I appreciate what you are saying. But, I'm not more than I think I am. I couldn't possibly be. I'm a new creature in Christ born of God’s spirit. The enemy can't touch me even when I do sin. Sin used to be a three-way issue; me, the devil and God. But now in Christ it is just between me and my Father and God no longer deals with me as I deserve but as a SON. I'm just careful not to think more highly of my self than I ought. I’m also careful not to think less of myself than God thinks of me regardless of condemning theologies that say otherwise.
Philetus said:
I know what you mean. We must continually walk in the light as He is in the light (John). We must continually walk in the Spirit, not the flesh (Paul).
Technically, sin is not a substance. As we sin, we form a nature (Eph. 2). We are not born with moral depravity (physical depravity is inherited from Adam; moral depravity is volitional leading to bondage). Sin is volitional. Romans 6 reminds us to yield to Spirit vs flesh. This involves obedient choices moment by moment. It is not a matter of a causative nature back of the will.
(I reject Augustinian 'original sin'...if you affirm it, then we finally disagree about something...it is too syrupy sweet when we are each other's booster).
Bob Hill
TOL Subscriber
Lee, you jump to too many conclusions. Just because God repented about 30 times in the O T, doesn’t mean He couldn’t determine something to happen exactly the way He wanted it. My God can do anything He wants to do. He chose to let man have a lot of freedom. Sometimes man was so wacky that God didn’t know what man would do. That was because of man’s stupidity not God’s desire.
In Christ,
Bob Hill
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