ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 1

[zapp]

Christians
I have a question: can someone point me to a serious, biblical, thoughtful survey of the Open vs. SV positions, that is not polemical, not extra-biblical in the main, not frivolous? This is important. Adult.
z

 

[Caille]

Christians
I have a question: can someone point me to a serious, biblical, thoughtful survey of the Open vs. SV positions, that is not polemical, not extra-biblical in the main, not frivolous? This is important. Adult.
z

You've come to the wrong place for that.

 

[patman]

Christians
I have a question: can someone point me to a serious, biblical, thoughtful survey of the Open vs. SV positions, that is not polemical, not extra-biblical in the main, not frivolous? This is important. Adult.
z

A few S.V. Proof verses:

God knowing things before they happen:

Jeremiah 1:5?“ Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; Before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet to the nations.”

Matthew 26:74-75
Then he began to curse and swear, saying, “I do not know the Man!” ?Immediately a rooster crowed. 75 And Peter remembered the word of Jesus who had said to him, “Before the rooster crows, you will deny Me three times.” So he went out and wept bitterly.

God seeming to say he is in the future:

Revelation 22:13?I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”

Christians were predestined to be Christians

Revelation 17:8?The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Romans 8:29?For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.



O.V. Proof Verses:

God changing mind about future actions:

Deuteronomy 9:13-19
13 “Furthermore the LORD spoke to me, saying, ‘I have seen this people, and indeed they are a stiff-necked people. 14 Let Me alone, that I may destroy them and blot out their name from under heaven; and I will make of you a nation mightier and greater than they.’
15 “So I turned and came down from the mountain, and the mountain burned with fire; and the two tablets of the covenant were in my two hands. 16 And I looked, and behold, you had sinned against the LORD your God—had made for yourselves a molded calf! You had turned aside quickly from the way which the LORD had commanded you. 17 Then I took the two tablets and threw them out of my two hands and broke them before your eyes. 18 And I fell down before the LORD, as at the first, forty days and forty nights; I neither ate bread nor drank water, because of all your sin which you committed in doing wickedly in the sight of the LORD, to provoke Him to anger. 19 For I was afraid of the anger and hot displeasure with which the LORD was angry with you, to destroy you. But the LORD listened to me at that time also.

Example of how God predicted one thing and later admits it didn't happen:

Ezekiel 26
7 “For thus says the Lord GOD: ‘Behold, I will bring against Tyre from the north Nebuchadnezzar[a] king of Babylon, king of kings, with horses, with chariots, and with horsemen, and an army with many people.......12 They will plunder your riches and pillage your merchandise; ......14 I will make you like the top of a rock; you shall be a place for spreading nets, and you shall never be rebuilt, for I the LORD have spoken,’ says the Lord GOD.

Ezekiel 29:18
“Son of man, Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon caused his army to labor strenuously against Tyre; every head was made bald, and every shoulder rubbed raw; yet neither he nor his army received wages from Tyre, for the labor which they expended on it.

non-Biblical note... it never happened. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyre. The city still exists to this day

Example of Jesus(who is God) admitting a lack of one aspect future knowledge:

Mark 13:32
“But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father

Example of something else that didn't happen at all:

Mark 9:1
[ Jesus Transfigured on the Mount ] And He said to them, “Assuredly, I say to you that there are some standing here who will not taste death till they see the kingdom of God present with power.”

God changes his mind, bluntly said:

Hosea 11:8
8 "How can I give you up, Ephraim?
How can I hand you over, Israel?
How can I treat you like Admah?
How can I make you like Zeboiim?
My heart is changed within me;
all my compassion is aroused.

Seeing God as knowing the entire Future presents too many problems in future. And even the best proof verses for the S.V. do not really mean what the S.V. take them to mean. They can all be explained in a manner that does not require absolute future knowledge.

Jeremiah 1:5?“ Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; Before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet to the nations.”

Answer:
Moments before conception begins, God would know everything about the two strings of half DNA, instantly knowing the person it would be, even the number of hairs on his head. This is showing really good present knowledge, not future knowledge.

Romans 8:29?For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Answer:
God created man to be in his image from the very beginning. We already know this, but we fell out of it. But God foreknew that one day he would have a body of believers again, in his image. This verse speaks to that group that anyone is free to join, it doesn't say he hand chose specific people to be in that group. This isn't future knowledge, it is planning and determination to get everyone who will come.


Matthew 26:74-75
Then he began to curse and swear, saying, “I do not know the Man!” ?Immediately a rooster crowed. 75 And Peter remembered the word of Jesus who had said to him, “Before the rooster crows, you will deny Me three times.” So he went out and wept bitterly.

Answer:
Jesus knew for a while that Peter would be tested, just like Job, Satan visited God and asked to test Peter. But Jesus knew Peter well enough to know he wouldn't pass the test. It is knowing someone well enough and knowing what the test would be to be able to call the ending result. All you need now is to get the roster to crow at the right time,,, God could handle that.

Luke 22:31-34
“Simon, Simon, behold, Satan has demanded to sift you like wheat; but I have prayed for you, that your faith may not fail; and you, when once you have turned again, strengthen your brothers.” But he said to Him, “Lord, with You I am ready to go both to prison and to death!” And He said, “I say to you, Peter, the rooster will not crow today until you have denied three times that you know Me.”

I hope this helps some, Z.

As I present verses that show God not predicting future events, I know it worries people, they wonder "What else did he not know, how do we know Heaven will be what he said?"

The answer is simple, I said this in another thread, and want to reuse it to answer...

Yes. Why is future knowledge soooo important to ones view on deity?

God has lots of aspects that trump future knowledge every time. Take his ability to Manafest this entire universe just by uttering "Let it be so..." How awesome is that?

Does future knowledge really out do that?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/61/Universe.jpg

Look at this picture .... just stare at it. God made that. How can future knowledge compare? God is mighty and able to do all things he wishes, this proves it. Future knowledge.... what does it matter?

God's power is awesome. It would seem that when someone asks how can we trust a God who doesn't know the future, they would look around and realize, HEY, God created all this! Just by speaking it. He assured his followers that He is able to do abundantly more than for our salvation than we can know.

 

[Hilston]

Whenever you need proof that Open Deists know little or nothing about their opponents or their opponent's theology, you needn't go further than their own words for the best demonstration (all according to God's decree, of course):

One consideration that you may want to ponder, Hilston, is that if you are right and the Settled View is the accurate one, then those who hold the Open View can't help themselves and all your insults and scorn are unjustified.

See what I mean? Those who hold the Open View truly can't help themselves, but my insults and scorn are nonetheless justified. That's the biblical view. I have yet to meet an Open Theist whose mind has not been sufficiently damaged to process that. But then again, they can't help themselves and it's all according to God's decree. And yes, my derision is nonetheless justified.

If, however, the Open View is the accurate one, then the behavior of those holding the Settled View is upon their own heads.

Non sequitur, Caille. The Settled View affirms that the behavior of everyone is upon their own heads. And if one is elect, sinful behavior is forgiven, and righteous behavior, which God foreordained in advance (Eph 2:10) is rewarded.

All according to God's decree,
:j

 

[Hilston]

Helloooooo?

Removing that plank represents you being smart for once ...

"Being smart for once?" Now I'm not smart? Which is it? You people need to get your talking points straight.

and taking that proclamation back. Once you do that, I will consider you slightly more qualified to dish out your spiel and show your attitude. But until then you should invest in a zipper.

Where did you pick up the idea that I care one whit about what you think, let alone whether or not I meet your asinine standards for what qualifies me to dish out my spiel and to show my attitude?

Let me help you get that "broom" out of your eye.... Oh.. or is that a tree?

You can help me out by explaining what, exactly, is the plank, patman? Please identify it.

Whatever it is, ...

See what I mean? You don't even know what it is. And you presume to put qualifications on me? What an embarrassment.

... here is your problem:

Hilston: "the sin and evil He authored is for good"

So you are saying evil is good?

Please, not that again. When will you Open Theists ever learn? No, I am not saying evil is good. That would be contrary to scripture.

You have also said he planned for evil... and you called that good too.

Planning evil for good is good when God does it, because He is infinite and omniscient and will not make an error in that regard. The evil itself is not good. The outcomes of the evil God plans is always good, but the evil itself is never good.

Isaiah 5:20
Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who put darkness for light, and light for darkness; Who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

How does that verse have anything to do with this discussion? No one is calling evil good and good evil. Evil is still evil, even when it is used by God for good purposes.

Jeremiah 4:22
“ For My people are foolish, They have not known Me. They are silly children, And they have no understanding. They are wise to do evil, But to do good they have no knowledge.”

I am a little AFRAID TO tell you too much because you seem to get lost in the words ...

Yeah, that's because I'm not very smart. You should know better than to lay such heavy truths on my doltish head.

... But you are as Jeremiah said. To a 'T'. You for some reason see wisdom in evil? You see Goodness in Evil ...

You just can't seem to connect the dots, can you?

You claim to agree with Job? JOB? Don't you remember, in essence, Job said, "My bad. I didn't know what I was saying?" God appeared to him and let him have it for the wrong things he said about God. You want to be like that?

Yes, I do want to be like Job. In fact, I believe that what happened to Job happens often to those who study God's word and try to do so intelligently. Often, we study and are blown away by the greatness of God. We try, sometimes too hard, to know and to utter things that go beyond our understanding. And then, in a manner much less dramatic, God rebukes us for uttering things that are beyond our knowledge. We cover our mouths and realize that such things are too wonderful for us. Open Theists have no such humility. They presume to know the psychology of God and ascribe to Him humanistic frailties and existentialist attributes. They humanize God and deify man and don't even know enough to be ashamed of themselves and to cover their mouths.

Note that Job didn't say wrong things about God. Rahter, he uttered things that were beyond his understanding, speaking without knowledge, but he was not wrong in what he said. Job was rebuked for speaking out of turn, for speaking blindly and without understanding, not for speaking wrong things.

Job 42:3 Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not. 4 Hear, I beseech thee, and I will speak: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me. 5 I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee. 6 Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes. 7 And it was so, that after the LORD had spoken these words unto Job, the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath.​

Job 34
[/B]

10 “ Therefore listen to me, you men of understanding: Far be it from God to do wickedness, ... And from the Almighty to commit iniquity.​

No one is claiming that God does wickedness or iniquity. Remember what Job said: "But [Job] said unto [his wife], Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips." Job is not calling evil good and good evil. He is saying that the evil was planned by God, and he does so without sinning.

12 Surely God will never do wickedly, Nor will the Almighty pervert justice.

No one is saying otherwise, patman.

You will say "planning evill isn't evil."

No, planning evil for evil is evil. For finite errant men to plan evil for good is presumptuous and foolish. For the infinite and omniscient God to plan evil for good is good.

To that I must say God disagrees:

Proverbs 6

16 These six things the LORD hates,
Yes, seven are an abomination to Him:
17 A proud look,
A lying tongue,
Hands that shed innocent blood,
18 A heart that devises wicked plans,
Feet that are swift in running to evil,
19 A false witness who speaks lies,
And one who sows discord among brethren.​

Yes, a heart that devises wicked plans belongs to those whose feet are swift in running to evil. Such are evil people. God is not evil; He plans evil for His good purposes. God is good. He tells us so. We should trust what He tells us about Himself and not presume to sit in judgment of Him.

Now, can you please read this and take it in before you click the reply button? It isn't a race. You can take a day to think about it.

I took several days. I hope that's OK.

... Your saying God planed for evil ... is evil! Cover your mouth, "Job!"

Ge 45:5 Now therefore be not grieved, nor angry with yourselves, that ye sold me hither ["ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good"]: for God did send me before you to preserve life. 6 For these two years hath the famine been in the land ["He called for a famine upon the land," Ps 105:16]: and yet there are five years, in the which there shall neither be earing nor harvest. 7 And God sent me before you to preserve you a posterity in the earth, and to save your lives by a great deliverance ["ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good"]. 8 So now it was not you that sent me hither, but God: and he hath made me a father to Pharaoh, and lord of all his house, and a ruler throughout all the land of Egypt.

Ps 105:16 Moreover He called for a famine upon the land: he brake the whole staff of bread. 17 He sent a man before them, even Joseph, who was sold for a servant:

Ge 50:20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.

Ps 76:10 Surely the wrath of man shall praise thee: the remainder of wrath shalt thou restrain.

Ps 119:71 It is good for me that I have been afflicted; that I might learn thy statutes.

Ro 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

Job 42:11 Then came there unto him all his brethren, and all his sisters, and all they that had been of his acquaintance before, and did eat bread with him in his house: and they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him: every man also gave him a piece of money, and every one an earring of gold. 12 So the LORD blessed the latter end of Job more than his beginning: for he had fourteen thousand sheep, and six thousand camels, and a thousand yoke of oxen, and a thousand she-assses.​

You claim to agree with Job? JOB? ... You want to be like that?

Yes. Definitely.

Patman, do you believe the beating, torture, humiliation and execution of Jesus were evil?​

 

[zapp]

i think Hilston is the best spokesperson the SV Calvinites have

 

[patman]

This will be easy, Hilston.

"Being smart for once?" Now I'm not smart? Which is it? You people need to get your talking points straight.

Calling God the author of evil..... is NOT smart. You draw the conclusion.

Where did you pick up the idea that I care one whit about what you think, let alone whether or not I meet your asinine standards for what qualifies me to dish out my spiel and to show my attitude?

Well.....You did reply....

You can help me out by explaining what, exactly, is the plank, patman? Please identify it.

I did... twice. It is the object in your eyes that causes you to see less clear than I. It is Your calling God the author of sin, AND NOW it includes you calling evil good as long as God did evil. And I don't mean evil-nevegive-event, evil-sin.

See what I mean? You don't even know what it is. And you presume to put qualifications on me? What an embarrassment.

Your antsyness to put me down makes you look like a fool... even more so. Anyone who read could tell I knew exactly what I was saying..... everyone but you I guess.

Please, not that again. When will you Open Theists ever learn? No, I am not saying evil is good. That would be contrary to scripture.

Ahem.........."Planning evil for good is good... "
-Hilston

Planning evil for good is good when God does it, because He is infinite and omniscient and will not make an error in that regard. The evil itself is not good. The outcomes of the evil God plans is always good, but the evil itself is never good.

Always good? Even for those people he caused to go to HELL(according to the S.V. that is). You present God as bent on causing evil everywhere for no reason, because creation was already GOOD before he caused the evil that led to your so called "good."

Hilston. Our reality is no longer good. You call evil good.

How does that verse have anything to do with this discussion? No one is calling evil good and good evil. Evil is still evil, even when it is used by God for good purposes.

That is a bonus... for you to think about. Thank me later.

Yeah, that's because I'm not very smart. You should know better than to lay such heavy truths on my doltish head.

Well groomed head.... BTW

You just can't seem to connect the dots, can you?

We are beyond children's games here on this thread, Hilstie. But if you want to continue playing them, you can have your time.

Not to brag... but, I get it. Trying to approach you from a different angle to get you to get it to... Kinda makes you :dizzy: ? (That's dizzy, BTW)

Yes, I do want to be like Job. In fact, I believe that what happened to Job happens often to those who study God's word and try to do so intelligently. Often, we study and are blown away by the greatness of God. We try, sometimes too hard, to know and to utter things that go beyond our understanding. And then, in a manner much less dramatic, God rebukes us for uttering things that are beyond our knowledge. We cover our mouths and realize that such things are too wonderful for us. Open Theists have no such humility. They presume to know the psychology of God and ascribe to Him humanistic frailties and existentialist attributes. They humanize God and deify man and don't even know enough to be ashamed of themselves and to cover their mouths.

Job before he repented for speaking wrong things? Hang on, you said more on this.......

Note that Job didn't say wrong things about God. Rahter, he uttered things that were beyond his understanding, speaking without knowledge, but he was not wrong in what he said. Job was rebuked for speaking out of turn, for speaking blindly and without understanding, not for speaking wrong things.

Job 42:3 Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not. 4 Hear, I beseech thee, and I will speak: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me. 5 I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee. 6 Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes. 7 And it was so, that after the LORD had spoken these words unto Job, the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath.​

Yeah, that shows he said some pretty dumb stuff.

Here he said something that was WAY wrong...

Job 34:5-12
5 “For Job has said, ‘I am righteous,
But God has taken away my justice;

6 Should I lie concerning my right?
My wound is incurable, though I am without transgression.’

7 What man is like Job,
Who drinks scorn like water,

8 Who goes in company with the workers of iniquity,
And walks with wicked men?

9 For he has said, ‘It profits a man nothing
That he should delight in God.’

10 “ Therefore listen to me, you men of understanding:
Far be it from God to do wickedness,
And from the Almighty to commit iniquity.

11 For He repays man according to his work,
And makes man to find a reward according to his way.

12 Surely God will never do wickedly,
Nor will the Almighty pervert justice.

Sounds kinda like what you say actually.

No one is claiming that God does wickedness or iniquity. Remember what Job said: "But [Job] said unto [his wife], Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips." Job is not calling evil good and good evil. He is saying that the evil was planned by God, and he does so without sinning.

No, planning evil for evil is evil. For finite errant men to plan evil for good is presumptuous and foolish. For the infinite and omniscient God to plan evil for good is good.

For no reason is planning for evil ever good. You again called evil good.

Yes, a heart that devises wicked plans belongs to those whose feet are swift in running to evil. Such are evil people. God is not evil; He plans evil for His good purposes. God is good. He tells us so. We should trust what He tells us about Himself and not presume to sit in judgment of Him.

Stop making Gods clear message so wishy-washy. He was clear, he abhors planning evil. This verse sums up your defense that God causes evil:

Ge 50:20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.

Soooo... Hilston, whom never twists or misreads ANYTHING... who thought evil? It doesn't say God..... "ye" did it. But God was able to use it for Good. this is DIFFERENT. God didn't cause it, he just insured a good outcome despite the evil.

 

[patman]

i think Hilston is the best spokesperson the SV Calvinites have

 

[RobE]

Neg rep for slander/libel. You know better.

God is omniscient. He knows the past and present exhaustively. This is vast, perfect knowledge. He knows the future as possible vs actual because that is the nature of the partially open future He created. If He settled the future, which He did not, then He would know it as settled.

In contrast, I know diddly squat in comparison. I know a drop in the bucket of all possible past, present, or future knowledge. I am not omniscient. I am also not as wise or intelligent as God (not even close, obviously).

Straw men caricatures bug me, so cut it out.

Since you are able to know part of the future, wouldn't it be logical that God would be able to know much, much more than you do?

That's what I was referring to when I wrote:

Your rejection that God knows more than you doesn't make sense.

Since you deny that this is the position taken, how are you able to know that God does NOT know the future without being able to make a comparison with your own abilities; especially when God proclaims what the future will be in scripture? I apologize for the misunderstanding of you position and await the clarification.

Rob

 

[RobE]

Is it your belief that Adam was created with what we now refer to as "the fleshly nature"?

No it is my position that Adam was created without an ability to become perfect in spirit without being born again. Flesh begets flesh. Spirit begets spirit.

Asked another way, do you believe that Adam was created with a propencity toward evil?

No, I believe Adam was created with the ability to do good or evil, but Adam would never become perfect on his own merits. Good is not perfect. Jesus Christ, who was the purpose and author of creation simultaneously, is the ONLY way to perfection and being born again of the Spirit. God's purpose was greater than suffering.

Is our having to contend with our flesh the result of the fall or was it the cause of it?

Our inability to overcome the flesh was a result of the fall. The flesh existed before the fall and Adam contended with it and gave in to it. With this in mind, it should be said that the fall was only a conduit which would lead to spiritual rebirth through our Lord Jesus Christ. Adam would not have continued in an eternity without sinning in my opinion. If Adam had not given into the flesh at any point then he would indeed have been equal with God. Adams descendents would have been of flesh and not spirit since flesh begets flesh and spirit begets spirit. The mormon cult believes Adam need not sin and could have become God; even though, Christianity rejects this idea in its entirety.

And my question: Clete, what is the exact probability man would remain perfect of his own accord?

Rob

 

[RobE]

Patman writes:

Example of Jesus(who is God) admitting a lack of one aspect future knowledge:

Mark 13:32“But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

Patrick,

Who knows the day and hour according to this verse?

Rob

 

[Bob Hill]

I came to understand that the whole concept of God outside of time and seeing all things as an eternal now was from Greek philosophy and, in modern times, from the theory of relativity, but you won’t find it in the Bible.

I understand from the Bible that God can know any aspect of the future He wants to, but the Bible shows us when He does know it in that way, it’s because He determines it. When He determines it, He makes it happen. Therefore, He knows that it will happen. That does not mean that He knows it because He looks into the future to know it, or sees all of that past, present, and future at once.

In Christ,
Bob Hill

 

[Bob Hill]

As I’ve mentioned a number of times before, the Hebrew word nacham, repent, is used in the Bible in reference to God over 30 times. I found the passage that had a great affect on Biblical theology in Deuteronomy, but I prefer the passage in Exodus where it shows God repented of stated harm because of Moses’ prayer.

Ex 32:9-14 And the LORD said to Moses, “I have seen this people, and indeed it is a stiff-necked people! 10 Now therefore, let Me alone, that My wrath may burn hot against them and I may consume them. And I will make of you a great nation.” 11 Then Moses pleaded with the LORD his God, and said: “LORD, why does Your wrath burn hot against Your people whom You have brought out of the land of Egypt with great power and with a mighty hand? 12 Why should the Egyptians speak, and say, ‘He brought them out to harm them, to kill them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth’? Turn from Your fierce wrath, and repent from this harm to Your people. 13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, Your servants, to whom You swore by Your own self, and said to them, ‘I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven; and all this land that I have spoken of I give to your descendants, and they shall inherit it forever.’” 14 So the LORD repented from the harm which He said He would do to His people.

From this and many other passages with that Hebrew word relating to God, I have drawn this conclusion. If God was outside of time and saw the future actions of men, God could never be wrong about predictions.

I also believe that if the future actions of men are unknowable because they have not been decided, our all knowing God would not know them. None of them actually exist, so there is nothing to know.

In Christ,
Bob Hill

 

[Clete]

No it is my position that Adam was created without an ability to become perfect in spirit without being born again. Flesh begets flesh. Spirit begets spirit.

Adam was already spiritually alive before the fall, Rob. He fell and died spiritually as a result of that fall. Otherwise it would not have been a fall.

No, I believe Adam was created with the ability to do good or evil, but Adam would never become perfect on his own merits. Good is not perfect. Jesus Christ, who was the purpose and author of creation simultaneously, is the ONLY way to perfection and being born again of the Spirit. God's purpose was greater than suffering.

I do not deny that a relationship with God is the only means by which one can become perfect but where is the need for being born again if one isn't spiritually dead? Adam could have been made perfect (assuming for the sake of argument that such was necessary) without having sinned and without having died spiritually and being born again.

Further, if, as you've now openly stated, Adam was able to do good OR evil then why wouldn't his chances of doing good been at least 50% if not more since he was in the direct presence of God Himself?

Our inability to overcome the flesh was a result of the fall. The flesh existed before the fall and Adam contended with it and gave in to it.

So then you are saying that the flesh is and always has been an evil influence on mankind starting with Adam BEFORE the fall. That is not Biblical, Rob. The flesh of Adam was not evil until he fell. Before he fell all of God's creation including Adam's flesh was "very good".

With this in mind, it should be said that the fall was only a conduit which would lead to spiritual rebirth through our Lord Jesus Christ.

This is blasphemy. The fall was not orchestrated by God for some greater purpose. God does not do or condone or predestine evil that good may come of it.

Adam would not have continued in an eternity without sinning in my opinion.

Who gives a rip what your opinion is? Your opinion is meaningless unless you can substantiate it with Scripture.

If Adam had not given into the flesh at any point then he would indeed have been equal with God.

Impossible! He was created by God and no matter how long he went without rebellion he would have remained a creation of God.

Further, the angels in heaven have gone for ages without sinning and they are not God's equal in any sense.

Further still, and this goes along with the point about Adam being a creature and not the creator, Adam would never have become omnipotent or omnipresent or omni-anything! There is simply no sense in which Adam could have ever been considered God's equal in any sense of the word aside from being so IN CHRIST, but never in and of himself.

Adams descendents would have been of flesh and not spirit since flesh begets flesh and spirit begets spirit.

Adam was not simply flesh but also a living spirit. Had he not sinned then when he reproduced he would have begotten both flesh and spirit, the fleshly part of him yielding flesh and the spiritual part of him yielding spirit. The whole reason that Adam's fall effected the whole race is precisely because he died spiritually when he fell. Had he not fallen then the problem would not have existed.

The mormon cult believes Adam need not sin and could have become God; even though, Christianity rejects this idea in its entirety.

So what? How is what the Mormons believe relevant to what the Scripture teaches? I know people who are not Christians who think that UFO's are angelic and/or demonic visitations to the Earth. Are they wrong because they aren't Christian or are they wrong because they’re irrational and unbiblical?

And my question: Clete, what is the exact probability man would remain perfect of his own accord?

Rob

No less than 50%. More precision than that is impossible to ascertain. He had two options, to obey or not to obey. He could have done either. And while I don't wish to go into it here, there is good reason to believe that Adam fell quite quickly and it is my belief that the longer he would have gone without sinning the less likely his sinning would have become because his relationship with God would have grown stronger and stronger as time went by. Lucifer, whom I believe fell at the Garden himself, struck while the fire was hot, if you'll allow the expression; he saw his opportunity and seized upon it without delay knowing that if he waited too long he would likely loose the chance.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Bob Hill]

God's will is that we work out our salvation. Phi 2:12-13 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure. (If we let Him.) God’s will can be thwarted by us just as Israel thwarted His will for them.

Psa 78:40,41 How often they (Israel) provoked Him in the wilderness and grieved Him in the desert! 41 Yes, again and again they tempted God and limited the Holy One of Israel.

Finally, God has His determinate will which cannot be thwarted. Acts 2:23 “Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death.”

His counsel is connected with His power. Isa 46:10,11 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things that are not yet done, saying, “My counsel shall stand, and I will do all My pleasure, 11 Calling a bird of prey from the east, The man who executes My counsel, from a far country. Indeed I have spoken it; I will also bring it to pass. I have purposed it; I will also do it.”

God always exists in time. But, time is no restraint to Him like it is to us. We need to rest at times. But He doesn’t. We are growing old. He is always the same it that attribute. Most of us have deadlines to keep and other time responsibilities that are measured by time. With God, time is no burden. I see time as the measure between two events. Since God can control every event, if He so desires, time is never a burden to Him at all. He created the universe. We haven’t even seen the farthest galaxy in this tremendous universe. When God created it, it seems like it was instantaneous. Therefore, I agree with the Open View. Read some of my articles on our site. I do not believe the future exists.

In Christ,
Bob Hill

 

[Bob Hill]

After the seven year tribulation, the great and awesome day of the Lord is next. This is what is normally called the second coming. Acts 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness and the moon into blood before the coming of the great and awesome day of the LORD.

Mat 24:29,30 Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Getting back to the millennial reign of Christ, He will reign with a rod of iron for the 1,000 years. Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

After the millennial reign of Christ, Satan is loosed. Then Satan is loosed. Rev 20:7-9 “Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.” After the battle of Gog and Magog, and Satan is cast into the lake of fire, the great white throne judgment takes place. Rev 20:11-15 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

Then the new heavens and earth will be established. And they reign forever. Rev 21:1,3,27; 22:5 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. . . . 3 Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. . . . 27 only those who are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life. 22:5 And they shall reign forever and ever.

The prophecy in Daniel 7:13,14 is fulfilled. Daniel 7:13,14 “I was watching in the night visions, and behold, One like the Son of Man, coming with the clouds of heaven! He came to the Ancient of Days, and they brought Him near before Him. 14 Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and His kingdom the one which shall not be destroyed.”

By this time, we, in the body of Christ, have been with Christ for at least 1,007 years. We have no need of rejecting the mark of the beast since we will not be in the tribulation.

Safe in Christ,
Bob Hill

 

[elected4ever]

There is no 7 year tribulation Bob. The next event is the second coming of Christ. His return and our resurrection and transformation. Once I read the first sentence then I knew there was no need to read the rest. The scripture says 1000 years not 1007.

 

[sentientsynth]

I've read nowhere that Adam was created with spirit. Rather, it says he was created a living soul.

• Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
  
• 1Cr 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit.

So, from whence does this "Adam possessed spirit" doctrine come? I find it nowhere in the scriptures.


Synth (no longer sentient)

 

[sentientsynth]

Patman writes:

Example of Jesus(who is God) admitting a lack of one aspect future knowledge:

Mark 13:32“But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

Patrick,

Who knows the day and hour according to this verse?

Rob

Yes. I've seen this verse touted as an example of God's ignorance so many times it's ridiculous. What they fail to realize is that Christ as a man limited Himself to the knowledge, etc. that His Father gave to Him. The most this verse proves is the absolute dependence of God the Son in His incarnate state to the Father.

But, as you've correctly pointed out, RobE, this verse shows that the Father knows the exact "day and hour" that the Lord will return.

 

[patman]

RobE & sentientsynth

RobE & sentientsynth

Yes. I've seen this verse touted as an example of God's ignorance so many times it's ridiculous. What they fail to realize is that Christ as a man limited Himself to the knowledge, etc. that His Father gave to Him. The most this verse proves is the absolute dependence of God the Son in His incarnate state to the Father.

But, as you've correctly pointed out, RobE, this verse shows that the Father knows the exact "day and hour" that the Lord will return.

I think you miss the point.

When we see God, in any form, not knowing the future, we see the possibility that God can not know the future plainly stated. If God the father knew and the son didn't, it doesn't matter, the point still stands.

I had a pretty long post. It asks the question "Why is future knowledge so important? Why is it required for God to be God, and without it he is nothing?"

If God didn't know the future and could still create the human existence.... then why is he lesser of a God? Just take a second and look at your hand. Look at what an impressive tool it is. how it bends and wraps, it has the bones and mussels confirm it to do a huge variety of things!

So what if he doesn't know the future, he is still the loving creator!

Does no future knowledge mean he doesn't love us? Does it make any difference in the fact that with the blink of an eye God could end it all with the power in his hand, and still doesn't do it? No. Future knowledge is nothing. God is powerful anyway and always forever and ever - even if he didn't have it.

So since it doesn't make him lesser of a God, and because the Bible doesn't say he has utter 100% future knowledge, why not consider that he doesn't?